VIP - Africa

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Results from the combination of the addition of nationalism and the resistance events that were created in VIP 0.2. Known bugs and are being completely reworked for 0.5.

Not designed at the time to create the problems that they now result in.

Thank you for your response.

I played further into the game with Sotho and just when I thought that I was gaining the upperhand against the reactionaries, I was in for a really bad suprise:

The Africans against civilization event fires multiple times. Each time it does +6 militacy to all pops and adds more badboy to the total.

After the first time that it happened, I reloaded and cranked up crime defense spending and that helped. But the event fired again and that placed by badboy well over 20.

The UK then declared war on even though it wasn't even close to 1879.

I don't recall facing this bad when playing as Liberia. This might just be a Sotho thing I guess.

photobucket.com/albums/v519/CatsandCradles/event.jpg

 

[OHgamer]

Thank you for your response.

I played further into the game with Sotho and just when I thought that I was gaining the upperhand against the reactionaries, I was in for a really bad suprise:

The Africans against civilization event fires multiple times. Each time it does +6 militacy to all pops and adds more badboy to the total.

After the first time that it happened, I reloaded and cranked up crime defense spending and that helped. But the event fired again and that placed by badboy well over 20.

The UK then declared war on even though it wasn't even close to 1879.

I don't recall facing this bad when playing as Liberia. This might just be a Sotho thing I guess.

photobucket.com/albums/v519/CatsandCradles/event.jpg

Actually I think Sotho is not under the same kind of protection for ENG because it borders South Africa and was an area of British and Boer expansion.

 

[unmerged(36253)]

Actually I think Sotho is not under the same kind of protection for ENG because it borders South Africa and was an area of British and Boer expansion.

Hi again. I noticed that it says, "Peace treaty with Sotho until January 1879"

Does the AI break the treaty then?

I let the revolutions take over the country this time and to my suprise it left me as a Democracy with Liberty as the values. But when that happened, all of my relations with Europe sank to new lows.

 

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Cats, its just buggy. It isn't suppose to effect African nations at all, only european ones. Btw giving badboy and a loss of prestige to represent Massacers...while not lowering population just doesn't make sense. Esspecially since badboy is suppose to represent European nations and there sense of a balance of power. Killing some natives (when all the major powers did it as well) they wouldn't look down at you. But either way, those events fireing for African nations is a glitch.

 

[mib]

OK CatsandCradle, you're being weird here.

You are playing a game. The game spans 1836-1920. This time period saw its share of wars:

- Texas Revolution
- First Opium War
- Maori Wars
- Mexican-American War
- Taiping Rebellion (20 million deaths)
- Crimean War
- Second Opium War
- American Civil War (1/2 million deaths)
- Franco-Prussian War
- Anglo-Zulu War
- First Sino-Japanese War
- Second Boer War
- Russo-Japanese War
- The Great European War (14 million deaths)

Fact is, wars were part of life back then. If you're upset that a couple of events are killing African tribesmen, then remember there are events for almost all of the above wars. If it's "scripted genocide", then Paradox is conducting genocides on Chinese, Japanese, Germans, French, Russians, English, Yankee and Ottomans. So what should VIP do? Ban warfare?

 

[unmerged(36253)]

OK CatsandCradle, you're being weird here.

You are playing a game. The game spans 1836-1920. This time period saw its share of wars:

- Texas Revolution
- First Opium War
- Maori Wars
- Mexican-American War
- Taiping Rebellion (20 million deaths)
- Crimean War
- Second Opium War
- American Civil War (1/2 million deaths)
- Franco-Prussian War
- Anglo-Zulu War
- First Sino-Japanese War
- Second Boer War
- Russo-Japanese War
- The Great European War (14 million deaths)

Fact is, wars were part of life back then. If you're upset that a couple of events are killing African tribesmen, then remember there are events for almost all of the above wars. If it's "scripted genocide", then Paradox is conducting genocides on Chinese, Japanese, Germans, French, Russians, English, Yankee and Ottomans. So what should VIP do? Ban warfare?

This event, which OHgamer, pointed out was intended for European powers and was accidentally applied to Africans as well.

But by letting this event stand as is, we are basically saying:

Africans cannot appreciate a modern democratic society, therefore add 7 to their militancy.

Now,OHgamer has said this was an error in the script and he is working on correcting it and I thank him for that.

Am I aware of the massive bloodshed that has taken place in human history during this time period? Yes.

So why am I so upset over "killing African tribesmen" as you have pointed out?

Just look at the crappy situation Africa is in right now. There hasn't been a day when I have not clicked on some internet link and seen the horrors taking place in Africa. And I'll wager my tie and shirt that the reasons for so much chaos, disease, and social/ethnic fighting was due to colonial powers ripping apart Africa in the 19th and early 20th centuries - the time periods that Victoria takes place over.

Every part of the globe is covered up with human blood - but it appears to me that the African continent never had a chance to "make it" so to speak - and I being dominated by my pessimism, do not believe that we will see it improve dramatically in our life time. Everybody rants how AIDs is being contained - but very few take notice of TB.

So you see, Africa is in a desperate situation today. And it just so happens that the Africa modeled in Victoria represents a desperate continent on the verge of being ripped apart.

So what's wrong with pointing out that this event was wrong and needs to be corrected? I am a huge fan of playing as China. I'll crank up 150,000 IND any day. I'll field the best army in the world and have the most prestige. I love China - but I also love the underdogs of Victoria too.

Look I can't think of a single positive event for Africa in Victoria at all. Can you think of one event in VIP that benefits any Africans? No. There are none.
China can whip up her defenses any day and build like crazy.

Can any African nation do the same? No. So what's wrong with me pointing this event out? Africa turned out horrendously in the real world, so how am I "weird" for objecting and pointing out this one event that simulate more of that chaos in Victoria? It's already desperate as it is already.

I am under the impression that our minds operate on different playing fields and I assure you mib, I am not as weird as you would like to think I am.








(ok ok Ethiopia has an event that gives it one railroad. I'll concede to that. And I look forward to the day when you guys will script something better for Africa.)

 

[Benz]

OK CatsandCradle, you're being weird here.

You are playing a game. The game spans 1836-1920. This time period saw its share of wars:

- Texas Revolution
- First Opium War
- Maori Wars
- Mexican-American War
- Taiping Rebellion (20 million deaths)
- Crimean War
- Second Opium War
- American Civil War (1/2 million deaths)
- Franco-Prussian War
- Anglo-Zulu War
- First Sino-Japanese War
- Second Boer War
- Russo-Japanese War
- The Great European War (14 million deaths)

Fact is, wars were part of life back then. If you're upset that a couple of events are killing African tribesmen, then remember there are events for almost all of the above wars. If it's "scripted genocide", then Paradox is conducting genocides on Chinese, Japanese, Germans, French, Russians, English, Yankee and Ottomans. So what should VIP do? Ban warfare?

amen

 

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I don’t quite understand this person, it seems he angry because victoria models africa correctly? Sorry to say by the 1800s africa was destined to fall and be conquered by stronger powers. For things to happen any other way would be ridiculous. But I guess he advocates adding a new random event that sends wizards to africa who give the natives magic powers...

It is possible by the way for an african nation to succeed it’s just a little difficult. Well actually that's an understatement it's VERY difficult and you have competely understand how this game works in order to accomplish it.
I’ve civilized both bemba, and sotho in VIP. I was even able to make sotho a great power so it can be done. I had the same problem with the events that you did but instead of whining about fictitious genocide I edited the game and fixed the problem.

 

[OHgamer]

One thing to keep in mind, while the events do need an overhaul, the period before colonization in Africa was not simply one of peace and tranquility - conflict between African states and communities for control of resources was a common feature of life and in fact was one of the factors that helped Europeans gain dominance in the continent in the late 19th C - playing rival communities off each other. The Sotho were in constant conflict with the Zulu before the Great Trek, other Nguni peoples fleeing the Zulu expansion were taking over lands inhabited by the Shona, Barotse, Tonga and other peoples and creating new states in which the former inhabitants became the subjects of Nguni overlords. And the slave trade that provided the labor for the plantation economie of the Americas well into the 19th C was dependent upon the ability of Africans in contact with European traders acquiring slaves from the interior of Africa, as Europeans lack of resistance to African diseases made it impossible to go interior of Africa themselves to seize slaves. Most of the slaves eventually sold to European traders came as the result of wars between African peoples, with war captives being sold to the Europeans in exchange for guns to allow the "slaving states" to continue to expand their power bases.

For a great overview of African history in the period just before the scramble, a great read is the UNESCO General History Of Africa, VI : Africa In The Nineteenth Century Before The 1880s, (Paris:1989). Contains a wealth of information on African states and socieities on the eve of the scramble.

 

[Hagie Sophia]

Africa is a mess today. It's been a mess for a long time. And they weren't doing much before the Europeans showed up to start messing things up. So Victoria more or less accurately represents that. Perhaps this particular event is buggy in VIP, but it is still more or less accurate, as well. So should we sacrifice realism and historical accuracy (as much as it can be achieved within a limited game model) because it hurts your feelings?

VIP creators, perhaps we can build a Rose Colored Glasses VIP mod for this guy. Make it so every nation starts out equal and equality of of outcome is guaranteed. Make it so we can have 100+ Great Powers, so no one is left out. And throw out the scoring, because it just makes the losing nations lose self-esteem.

Or, wait, how about you just grow up a bit? It's just a game. Bad things happen, bad things have always happened, and bad things will always happen. I'm sorry that everyone in Africa has AIDs or TB, but should we pretty up the situation in Africa in this game just because you get teary eyed when you see a Save the Children commercial? Here's a thought...maybe if you used the time and energy that it took to post this message to, I don't know, help actual, living, real Africans, it would really make you feel better?

 

[McNaughton]

I think you guys are being unfair to this guy. He pointed out one problem with an event, which in my opinion is completely fine, in fact, what he should be doing! However, he also stated that playing African nations isn't much fun because they appear to have been neglected in regards to anything that necessarily benefitted them. In this period there was a lot of stuff going on in Africa, lots of good and interesting things. It may be that this has not been a priority of VIP developers because they assumed that nobody would want to be on the African size of things.

Some people like playing as the underdog, but, when all you get are negative things happening to you, with a lot of interesting things omitted, it can get frustrating. He merely wants African nations to recieve the same attention that other 'doomed' nations (like China) have.

My advice is to be pro-active and create your own thread of suggestions for Africa. Don't expect everything to get in, but, you also must realize that if you really want something, you have to make an effort, as nobody else seems particularly keen on doing this for you.

 

[McNaughton]

I just pulled out a few volumes on African History (the most valuable ones are "Africa in the Nineteenth Century until the 1880s" and "Africa under Colonial Domination 1880-1935", both UNESCO titles, from the African point of view. There are about 1500 pages of information in here, about things going on in Africa (outside of the Colonies) which tell me that there is stuff that could be done, if you look for it. So, CatsandCradles, maybe you can do some legwork and get some interesting stuff out there for them to implement?

 

[OHgamer]

I just pulled out a few volumes on African History (the most valuable ones are "Africa in the Nineteenth Century until the 1880s" and "Africa under Colonial Domination 1880-1935", both UNESCO titles, from the African point of view. There are about 1500 pages of information in here, about things going on in Africa (outside of the Colonies) which tell me that there is stuff that could be done, if you look for it. So, CatsandCradles, maybe you can do some legwork and get some interesting stuff out there for them to implement?

VIP 0.5 will have a good amount of new events for Africa, including things like the rise of the Tukulor Empire in West Africa.

And the UNESCO titles are essential reading for anyone interested in the history of Africa in this period.

 

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I'm willing to help with this. Is there anything I need to know?

 

[OHgamer]

I'm willing to help with this. Is there anything I need to know?

Have you finished the revisions you were considering on your Ethiopia events? If so, PM me, I'd like to try and get them into 0.5 if possible.

 

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Is it possible to add an Egyptian culture? I realize the Ottoman Empire is huge and really has its own, unique-based culture. Egyptian culture shouldn't just be lumped in with "Arabic," atleast I don't think so, it is an empire at the time, and just because of it's uncivilized status, it should be denied that? I think that's kind of...not right, and takes away much of a national identity.

 

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Don't we already have 'Misri' culture?

 

[OHgamer]

Is it possible to add an Egyptian culture? I realize the Ottoman Empire is huge and really has its own, unique-based culture. Egyptian culture shouldn't just be lumped in with "Arabic," atleast I don't think so, it is an empire at the time, and just because of it's uncivilized status, it should be denied that? I think that's kind of...not right, and takes away much of a national identity.

VIP 0.4B has already split Arabic into 4 culture groups :

Badawin - Bedouin Arabs
Mashriqi - Arabs of The Fertile Crescent/Arabian Peninsula
Misri - Arabs of Egypt
Maghribi - Arabs of North Africa

 

[JRaup]

I forget what the inital event is, but it should be followed by a sereis of "Stanley" events which push Belgian control deeper into the Congo. The Free state IIRC comes about only once a majority of the Congo is Belgian. It's been a while, so my memory may be off a tad here...

 

[Generalisimo]

The events rely on the Belgians actually having a foothold in the Congo, don't they? Cos that's really quite rare. Is VIP 0.5 going to try and make that a more frequent occurence? I want to be able to play as the Congo Free State!

CMcU

Yep, it relys on that... there are many events created to try to make that happen... but usually the AI does some disasters around that place... o
BUt, don't expect much from Congo... they have nothing to be able to prevail in that area...