The Wars of the Roses

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coz1: ...And we’ve not the men to press the issue even if we have the brilliant leadership that you good men give us…”

tsk, tsk ! ! the King wants a job done, but does not want to pay for it ! !

magnificent update ! !

 

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The King did not have any money or any estates worth mentioning that had not already been sold off, mortgaged or given to favourites. £200000 in debt and rising. 300000 by 1453.

Salisbury is the Kingmaker's father and Cecilly's too. Salisbury will become Duke of Warwick, probably in lieu of being paid. Henry Vi couldn't give Richard of York the position he wanted as that was the Crown and a much stronger claim Richard had to it. Henry V had executed Richard's father, also Richard, but of Cambridge, in 1415 for having a better claim to the throne, being a lollard and losing leading a rebellion.

 

[coz1]

The King did not have any money or any estates worth mentioning that had not already been sold off, mortgaged or given to favourites. £200000 in debt and rising. 300000 by 1453.

Salisbury is the Kingmaker's father and Cecilly's too. Salisbury will become Duke of Warwick, probably in lieu of being paid. Henry Vi couldn't give Richard of York the position he wanted as that was the Crown and a much stronger claim Richard had to it. Henry V had executed Richard's father, also Richard, but of Cambridge, in 1415 for having a better claim to the throne, being a lollard and losing leading a rebellion.

I'll get back to some other fb-fb in a little bit but I need to make sure this did not go uncorrected - Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury is Cecily Neville's oldest brother. These are the two featured in the post above. Richard Neville's son in RL is also named Richard Neville and he will become the Earl of Warwick (not Duke.) This is the one everyone calls the Kingmaker.

The Duke of Warwick is Henry de Beauchamp as of 1441 and he is married to - get this - Cecily Neville, the daughter of the Earl of Salisbury. When he died, he left his title (more or less) to his daughter but she also died soon after. Thus, the Warwick title passed to his sister Anne, who just happened to be married to Richard Neville, the Kingmaker.

In RL, when Salisbury died in 1460, Warwick the Kingmaker then also inherited his titles and land and thus became the premier magnate in the land which is what allowed him to have so much influence over the court.

Here's a very simple family tree to assist:

All the other information in your post, Chief, is correct. I'll just say, don't get too far ahead of me here so as not to confuse the other readers. Obviously if I make a mistake, I want to know about it, but be careful because there are a lot of folks with the same names and titles and it can get confusing. I've learned that many times over now but trust that I am doing every bit of research I can to get it right.

Thanks for the comment, to be sure, and I'll count on you to keep me honest.

Back with more fb-fb later.

 

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Oldhall stepped forward and nearly spit on the ground, “It is this that keeps us from pressing our issue, my Lords…the King will not give us the means to effect such an end.”

Hasn't this been true for the last thirty years?

 

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A different Cecily Neville. Sorry for the inaccuracy. Well caught, early, coz1.

Simple family trees might become a staple part of this AAR to help everyone understand what's going on.

I think you are walking into a minefield with the Wars of the Roses.

 

[Woody Man]

Same here, got my names mixed up!

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Chief and EP - Think nothing of it. It happens quite easily and has to me often as I've researched this period. But to perhaps calm the readers, know that though I've no formal training in the period, I have been researching The Wars of The Roses and Tudor period of English history on and off for about four or five years now. And yet, even I still don't have it down. Just wait until we get into those damn Beauforts (sounds like that old movie That Darn Cat, doesn't it?)

Ahh the Earl of Salisbury! The Kingmaker I presume? Unless my history is off. I look forward to seeing him play out his part.

On a side note, I hope you are going to do your best to hold on to France

Even though it's a bit early to get into Warwick the Kingmaker, rest assured he plays his familiar role...to a point. But we'll get to that. As for France, I'll discuss a bit more when we get closer to the games start what I hope to do, but the starting position of England c.1453 is not a good one. I've played it out four or five times now and every move has three downsides.

very excellent, I don't know what it is but this sounds like Shakespeare, minus the old English.

Well that is quite a compliment! Thank you. One interesting note you and others might be interested in - though I have read Richard III many times over (it's a favorite of the Bard's plays) I have not read the rest of the WOTR histories and have actually decided specifically not to as I write this. Too afraid I might be colored by his plotting (though if someone is aware of a scene I simply must read, please do tell.)

Hmmm... If my memory serves, this should be just around when a certain fellow named Edward is supposed to be born. Somehow I have a feeling that this last post gains some considerable significance in that light.

You appear to be putting together a very intricate and involving tale here.

Excellent memory, JM! Indeed, this is when it is presumed Edward was conceived (though there has been some scandal there over the years suggesting Eddy was a bastard. I imagine you've read on that as well.) Indeed, I plan on Edward playing his typical huge role in this. And I hope it is both intricate and involving while at the same time enjoyable and not too convoluted. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

While I realize that this will be primarily a narrative AAR, are you planning on posting maps from time to time?

Yes, indeed I do. But we are just before game time here so there are no game maps to show. And when I do, I plan to use them sparingly only to support the plot rather than drive it. I did try and find some maps from this period to assist, but they are usually from just before or just after. Rather a pain.

Ah yes. Cecily Neville, grand-daughter to John of Gaunt, and thereby distantly related to another (albeit illegitimate) son of the Duke of Lancaster, Sir Robert of Brandon, a man whom history knows better as Captain.

As JM implied, a certain Edward should be screaming at the top of his little lungs around 1442.

Good stuff, C. Your writing improves with each post as you settle into the 'era'. And I think using the name & title to set the characters at the top of the post helps with any potential confusion. Looking forward to more.

Ah, the Captain. Well, well, well. You know, if you play your cards right, LD, I might be willing to give you a guest spot here and there if it works right. We'll see when we get closer. And indeed, as stated, little Eddy is on the way. Thanks for keeping up here and the compliment. I think you are right about hitting the titles and names early as a kind of guide to use during the rest of the post.

coz1: ...And we’ve not the men to press the issue even if we have the brilliant leadership that you good men give us…”

tsk, tsk ! ! the King wants a job done, but does not want to pay for it ! !

magnificent update ! !

Look to Chief Ragusa response on this one. While I'd agree (as would Richard, frankly) part of the problem Henry had was being too far in debt thanks to the factions he kept supporting, namely those damn Beauforts.

Oldhall stepped forward and nearly spit on the ground, “It is this that keeps us from pressing our issue, my Lords…the King will not give us the means to effect such an end.”

Hasn't this been true for the last thirty years?

Indeed. Once factions arose after Henry V's death, things started going downhill. Excellent point.

A different Cecily Neville. Sorry for the inaccuracy. Well caught, early, coz1.

Simple family trees might become a staple part of this AAR to help everyone understand what's going on.

I think you are walking into a minefield with the Wars of the Roses.

You may be right on family trees. I've actually thought about including a reference post from one of my early responses to feedback and linking to it in the contents area (which I just started yesterday.) That way, if anyone needed to check on something, they could just shoot back there and see. What do you guys think? Would that be too much of a hassle?

And you may very well be right that a minefield awaits. However, I think I am up to the challenge. We'll certainly see.


Thanks for all the great comments, folks! I really appreciate it!

 

[Nil-The-Frogg]

Nice scene here. But does Richard hope to win the war this way, interrupting war councils to have some fun? Oh, silly me, it's not the war against the French he tries to win that way, but perhaps the dynastic one?

 

[Woody Man]

Fb-fb:

Chief and EP - Think nothing of it. It happens quite easily and has to me often as I've researched this period. But to perhaps calm the readers, know that though I've no formal training in the period, I have been researching The Wars of The Roses and Tudor period of English history on and off for about four or five years now. And yet, even I still don't have it down. Just wait until we get into those damn Beauforts (sounds like that old movie That Darn Cat, doesn't it?)

Same here, we were never taught it at school so I've garnered most of my knowledge from books lying about the house and growing up as a Medieval reenactor portraying this very period. Its the names that always throw me off, so many people of the period took their fathers names, that they all meld into one. But ah well, if you are looking for books on the period I would reccomend reading The Paston Letters very interesting stuff.

 

[Estonianzulu]

Excellent update Coz, too bad they don't have the resources to deal with the issue at hand. A brief question

Fb-fb? What does that mean?

 

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Excellent memory, JM! Indeed, this is when it is presumed Edward was conceived (though there has been some scandal there over the years suggesting Eddy was a bastard. I imagine you've read on that as well.) Indeed, I plan on Edward playing his typical huge role in this. And I hope it is both intricate and involving while at the same time enjoyable and not too convoluted. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

I should hope I remember it, after all the research I did for the Wars for my AAR; including a nice thick biography of Eddy IV (by Charles Ross, if you're interested - unless you've read it already ) which stuck a few things into my mind. I've heard the illegitimacy claim, but I've never given credence to it; there's not enough proof, and I hold to the belief of "innocent until proven guilty".

 

[J. Passepartout]

I am interested (insofar as it may reflect on the good Lady) that Lord Talbot is called away from a council of war in order to buy dresses and manufacture children.

I'm not as familiar with this era of English history as with certain later centuries, so I am reading the comments with interest, not just the story.

 

[J. Passepartout]

Fb-fb? What does that mean?

Feedback to feedback.

 

[Hannibal Barca2]

Have by the way begun to read on your Brandenburger AAR... A masterpiece of work, which I'm sure this will be too

 

[merrick]

So... Gloucester is dead under mysterious circumstances, the Beauforts are plotting against York and York and friends not longer trust the King. Meanwhile the Crown is drowning in debt and the War is quietly being lost in the background - I sympathise with Lord Talbot.

Top-notch writing, as ever.

 

[Amric]

Having those monetary troubles seems to be one of the cruxes that caused Cromwell to rise isn't it? Richard and Cecily...well, what can I say? They seem comfortable around each other and still very much in love. Which is a good thing, of course. But I do wonder....If he is so worried about the cost of a couple of dresses, just how much in dire straits financially is he?

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Nice scene here. But does Richard hope to win the war this way, interrupting war councils to have some fun? Oh, silly me, it's not the war against the French he tries to win that way, but perhaps the dynastic one?

Excellent point, or points I should say. I admit, the scene was built for a few purposes and it may beg some disbelief that he leaves in the middle, but she did interupt and Richard certainly listens to his wife.

Same here, we were never taught it at school so I've garnered most of my knowledge from books lying about the house and growing up as a Medieval reenactor portraying this very period. Its the names that always throw me off, so many people of the period took their fathers names, that they all meld into one. But ah well, if you are looking for books on the period I would reccomend reading The Paston Letters very interesting stuff.

How odd that they don't teach you about such things in school. It is history after all. But good for you for doing your own research. As for The Paston Letters, I've not read them all but I have read a goodly portion through other books and such. Very intereseting and they were along for pretty much that whole ride.

Excellent update Coz, too bad they don't have the resources to deal with the issue at hand. A brief question

Fb-fb? What does that mean?

Thanks and yes, it is too bad. JP got that one right for fb-fb - its feedback to feedback, something I do to honor Ariel who used that himself way back when.

I should hope I remember it, after all the research I did for the Wars for my AAR; including a nice thick biography of Eddy IV (by Charles Ross, if you're interested - unless you've read it already ) which stuck a few things into my mind. I've heard the illegitimacy claim, but I've never given credence to it; there's not enough proof, and I hold to the belief of "innocent until proven guilty".

I've not read that and will search it out, though Eddy will be playing his role a bit later in this Part I. He'll still be a young buck. And I agree, I have not found enough to suggest there is any truth to the illegitimacy claim. It was mainly used as a political tool by those wanting to get at Edward.

I am interested (insofar as it may reflect on the good Lady) that Lord Talbot is called away from a council of war in order to buy dresses and manufacture children.

I'm not as familiar with this era of English history as with certain later centuries, so I am reading the comments with interest, not just the story.

Well, of course you mean Richard. At the time of the update above, Talbot is still at Pontoise. And recall that Richard is in Normandy not simply to war against the French but to administer the lands as the King's representative. He and Cecily are effectively the Regents of France. I do hope to add some important historical tidbits I have learned in the comments so I am glad you are enjoying them.

Have by the way begun to read on your Brandenburger AAR... A masterpiece of work, which I'm sure this will be too

Excellent! I am just about done over there so you are just in time to catch the finale within the next week or so. Thanks.

So... Gloucester is dead under mysterious circumstances, the Beauforts are plotting against York and York and friends not longer trust the King. Meanwhile the Crown is drowning in debt and the War is quietly being lost in the background - I sympathise with Lord Talbot.

Top-notch writing, as ever.

Yes, poor Talbot just wants a good fight and no one will give it to him - not the King nor the French. That does change, of course. Thanks.

Having those monetary troubles seems to be one of the cruxes that caused Cromwell to rise isn't it? Richard and Cecily...well, what can I say? They seem comfortable around each other and still very much in love. Which is a good thing, of course. But I do wonder....If he is so worried about the cost of a couple of dresses, just how much in dire straits financially is he?

Not being as up on Cromwell as others, I couldn't say exactly, but yes, the crown having financial difficulties certainly puts it at the whim of it's magnates. Not a good place to be. And I am glad the relationship between Richard and Cecily is coming across. Supposedly they were very much in love and she should prove to be a fun character to write. The real bonus is, she is around for all of this and thus, I'll get to write for her for quite a long time. As for Richard, the poor man has had to finance much of his time in France on his own. It has nearly bankrupted him. And of course, Cecily is concerned about appearances. She knows what it means to be seen as regal, especially in Normandy and needs to teach Richard a thing or two about that. Thanks for reading.


To all - I am still rather blown away by the great reception this has received! Thanks so much for all the great comments. The next scene is busy swimming in my head and I hope to get it out sometime over the weekend.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

To all - I am still rather blown away by the great reception this has received! Thanks so much for all the great comments. The next scene is busy swimming in my head and I hope to get it out sometime over the weekend.

A great AAR deserves a great reception, my friend. Just keep on doing so finely.

 

[RossN]

Thank you for the family tree - so many people of the same name (and often title) can make this period confusing.

 

[J. Passepartout]

Well, of course you mean Richard. At the time of the update above, Talbot is still at Pontoise.

I'll have to start keeping track of which titles go with which names, because as RossN (and others) says, it is confusing, although I made a rather major mistake in names in RossN's Russian AAR recently.