The Bulgarian Question - Important!

[Riddermark]

Yes, Bulgaria again i won't let it go you know..
I just want to inform you about the injustice in the game although not done on purpose i'm sure.

What i want in short: Bulgaria gets default provinces - Bulgaria and Rumelia and Dobrudja (it must also get part of Thrace but as you see very clearly the "slicing" of this part of the Balkans didn't go very correctly....) + Claim (the shield thing) on the provinces of Macedonia and Thrace (for the above reason)

Some historical proof:

- map here - http://rhapsody.online.bg/pastmap.jpg (sorry for the scan is from a history book but in bulgarian so i added som comments hope it helps)


The fall of Bulgaria under Ottoman Rule: (just the most important part which includes the territories, at the moment of writing i don't have a map as image but i may attach it later);

- The feudal split of provinces came at the balkans at a later stage of world history, therefore at the time of this tragic for the balkans events, most of the countries were divided. The serbian kingodm which controlled Macedonia collapsed leaving whole Macedonia dotted with little provinces ruled by either serbians or bulgars. Bulgaria however, split into 3 main parts - Turnovo Kingdo, Dobrudja Kingdom and Budin (Vidin) Kingdom.. The other two were, to say, vassals, although this is not very correct, of Turnovo Kingdom. When the ottomans undertook their devastating attack these 3 Bulgarias gave them a fight which of course was lost, and Bulgaria fell part by part in Ottoman hands.

- i'm stating here that at this time Bg owned dobrudja, rumelia, bulgaria
- btw, Dobrudja's capital city is Karvuna at this time.. not Silistra (might be the old name of the city i dunno here)

Proof2: Freedom 1878
-
Look at this site: http://www.shopbulgaria.com/books/g11.htm

There you can find books in english about the bulgarian history + authentic maps of free Bulgaria 1878.
Now you can look at the map that is there, it's very clear that free Bulgaria includes : Rumelia, Bulgaria, Dobrudja, Macedonia and part of Thrace. (i say part of Thrace because in EU2 the thrace province is bigger than it should be in my opinion)
This is Bulgaria after the Union of Bulgaria. Before the Union, Free bulgaria receives Rumelia, bulgaria and Dobrudja - thus this contry is called Kniajestvo (this is some sort of count thing i can't find the englis word) Bulgaria, while the other part including Macedonia and some Thrace remains as vassal part of Turkey... However this isn't for long and soon the two bulgarian parts unite, resulting into this you see in the map.

- according to this map, owned territories are - Bg, Rumelia, Macedonia, dobrudja... ( i use game province names )
no comment

I understand that the map in the game is of earlier bulgaria but I think that i'm more than right to request:
- Bulgaria. Rumelia, Dobrudja - provinces gave when - "Create a vassal"
- Claim on Macedonia and Thrace (there was always claim in thrace territory, bg vs byzantium is not a 5 or 10 years war it's more than 1000 ! )...

I give my word this is historically correct, taken from history books and driven by patriotic feelings which DID not affect the facts in this post

phew, i hope we can agree to something here


p.p.
Look at this picture how should Thrace be cut:

http://rhapsody.online.bg/split.jpg

 

[AndrewT]

Orright, for the sake of a decision let's make Karvuna the city of Dobrudja. The only thing left unresolved is whether a revolter gets CBs on his Minimums, mins + extras, or none at all. If anyone has a game where a revolter forms please check into this.

Also for the sake of completeness if you can test releasing a vassal with extra provinces and see if they get CBs on them. Thx.

 

[Twoflower]

Orright, for the sake of a decision let's make Karvuna the city of Dobrudja. The only thing left unresolved is whether a revolter gets CBs on his Minimums, mins + extras, or none at all. If anyone has a game where a revolter forms please check into this.

Also for the sake of completeness if you can test releasing a vassal with extra provinces and see if they get CBs on them. Thx.

Quite easy. A revolter always gets CBs on his minimums and extras, however can only revolt or be released with its minimum provinces (e.g. a Bulgaria that has Bulgaria and Rumelia as minimum and Dobrudja and Macedonia as extra provinces will only get Bulgaria and Rumelia if you release it / be able to revolt in Bulgaria and Rumelia, but have shields on Dobrudja and Macedonia as well).

 

[AndrewT]

A revolter ... can only revolt ... with its minimum provinces (e.g. a Bulgaria that has Bulgaria and Rumelia as minimum and Dobrudja and Macedonia as extra provinces will only ... able to revolt in Bulgaria and Rumelia, but have shields on Dobrudja and Macedonia as well).

Not quite, according to http://home.broadpark.no/~havmoe/EU/fileedit_t.htm#revolt . A revolt needs one of the minimum provinces but will accept the extras if they are in revolt also ("In case of a declaration of independance from revolts the extra provinces will also join if they are rebel controlled.").

But thanks for the info on CBs ("A revolter always gets CBs on his minimums and extras"). Can I ask, are you sure of this (ie you've tested or seen this)? Just want to be certain, as I want to get this documented. Thanks.

Also, what about CBs when released as a vassal?

 

[unmerged(9146)]

Can I ask, are you sure of this (ie you've tested or seen this)? Just want to be certain, as I want to get this documented. Thanks.

This is from one of my recent games:
Eire: minimum Connaught, Meath, Leinster and Munster; extra: Ulster
Formed from Munster alone.
CB on all five provinces (minimum and extra)

 

[AndrewT]

Amazingly enought BUL has formed by revolt in my first game with the new revolt.txt file! She is in Rumelia only. And indeed she has CBs on all 4 provinces. So that's confirmed.

Oddly enough, she formed an alliance with France, Savoy and Pommern!

Now all we need is someone to release BUL as a vassal and see what CBs she gets then.

 

[unmerged(20844)]

i dont have any saved games in the region

 

[unmerged(20077)]

i'm not a fanatic at all, so i consider myself very objective. and i do think dobrudja simply MUST be bulgarian in culture... there arent much bulgarians playing EU2, but still i think the truth is this and it shouldnt be twisted because there's no one to defend it. It was kept from 7th to the 14th century until the bulgarians were conquered by the ottomans. This region was in Bulgarian hands for most of the period before EU2 time (7 centuries before that) except for the time the bulgarians were conquered by Byzantium. Later, when they liberated themselves, South Dobrudja again became a part of the new Second Bulgarian Kingdom. Isnt this enough of a proof that the pepople in the region still considered themselves bulgarian? they were in bulgaria after the turkish yoke too, so this proves they preserved their nationality through the yoke. Being under Romanian control for a decade or some other very short period (in game terms) by this Mircea(sp?) the Elderly doesnt maoe the people romanian, when they have been in bulgaria for Seven centuries... doews anyone agree with me?

I'm inclined to disagree on the basis that the picture is confused; for instance the ethnic map at http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/maps/Dobrogea-ethnic.gif says that the region should have the Turkish culture at least later in the game. The extent of Bulgarian Kingdom doesn't argue for Bulgarian ethnicity since Bulgaria at that time included large numbers of non-Bulgarians, especially Romanians. The names of the rulers of the cities in the region are no help; they will appear Slavonic in Bulgarian sources and Romanian in Romanian sources...

 

[unmerged(20844)]

I'm inclined to disagree on the basis that the picture is confused; for instance the ethnic map at http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/maps/Dobrogea-ethnic.gif says that the region should have the Turkish culture at least later in the game. The extent of Bulgarian Kingdom doesn't argue for Bulgarian ethnicity since Bulgaria at that time included large numbers of non-Bulgarians, especially Romanians. The names of the rulers of the cities in the region are no help; they will appear Slavonic in Bulgarian sources and Romanian in Romanian sources...

yes, it did include people with non-bulgarian culture, but this are was conquered by them in the 7th century. Then after the Byzantine oppression these territories joined the ones that revolted away from Byz. Doesnt that mean something about their culture?

 

[unmerged(20844)]

additionally, do we care what the culture was in 1419, or later on? if we dont care about 1419, then let's make all Europe french, as Napoleon will most likely conquer it anyway! (just an example)
EDIT: i think the map itself shows how idiotic it is. Can you really believe thatBulgarian culture was preserved in 3 towns and their surroundings only??! ROFL
then where did the bulgarians come from when they revolted? It says the whole modern territory of Bulgaria was Turkish in culture. This enough is a proof of the map's incompetence

one more thing, I think it's Tatar, not Tartar as the sauce pretty nifty map you've dug out someone must've been hungry making it

SECOND EDIT: i swear this will be my last edit of this post, or it'll be good enough for a soap opera script.
Did anyone notice it says 19th century there? does that ring a bell? First, we dont care about 19th century in EU2. Second, if the bulgarians in these regions were less than the Turks, they could never have revolted! they could've been crushed without even the Sublime Porte sending troops to quell the rebellions

 

[Vytis]

... i think it clearly states Karvuna and Kaliakra as the biggest cities. Balchik is totally unreasonable i believe...

I disagree.The article talks about Karvuna and Kaliakra being medieval cities. Even pre-EU2. However "...after the Ottoman invasion in Bulgaria [...] during the 15th - 17th century Balchik was converted into a town..." So it seems like Balchik should be the name.
Also it says that "...during the 15th - 17th century Balchik was converted into a town with predominating Turkish population. The bulk of the population that occupied the place before the invasion of the Turks left. Very few Christians remained..." So the province should be turkish & muslim. After all, we want to be consistent right? It's the city that counts! (just like Memel being given german culture instead of lith.)

 

[Riddermark]

Now all we need is someone to release BUL as a vassal and see what CBs she gets then.

In my game she gets shields on the minimum and extra provinces

As for Karvuna i think Vytis may be right: look here:

"The present-day name of the town comes from Karvuna, which the Dobrudzha region was known as during the 14th century when it was an independent principality"
http://www.albena.com/cititown/detail.asp?rid=33

from the same place but about Balchik:
"During the medieval era, Balchik (the town had since acquired the name of a local ruler, Balik) was of secondary importance to nearby Kavarna."

ALTHOUGH:
"It (Balchik) achieved more prominence when regional Turkish administrators allowed the port to begin exporting Dobrudzha grain. Balchik's harbor was favored due to its protection from the prevailing north winds. Trading houses and other businesses run by Christians from Constantinople, Genoa, and Greece were founded and soon became numerous. At the beginning of this century, it was a thriving grain port and community with eight daily newspapers. "

I guess this means Balchik is the answer?

+
"The town, along with the rest of the Dobrudzha, was ceded to Romania by terms of the 1913 treaty which marked Bulgaria's ignominious defeat in the Second Balkan War. It remained under Romanian control until 1940 when it was wrested away by the Bulgarian army. Following liberation, 67, 000
Bulgarians relocated from the northern Dobrudzha to the south, making the economic situation difficult as the south was poor and undeveloped."

Which speaks of massive bulgarian population in that region, thus the culture should be genuinly slavonic..?

 

[unmerged(20077)]

"The town, along with the rest of the Dobrudzha, was ceded to Romania by terms of the 1913 treaty which marked Bulgaria's ignominious defeat in the Second Balkan War. It remained under Romanian control until 1940 when it was wrested away by the Bulgarian army. Following liberation, 67, 000
Bulgarians relocated from the northern Dobrudzha to the south, making the economic situation difficult as the south was poor and undeveloped."

Which speaks of massive bulgarian population in that region, thus the culture should be genuinly slavonic..?

Without knowing what the total population was, it isn't possible to say. Even then, was there a similar relocation of Romanians in 1940?

 

[Norrefeldt]

I do agree with you Impaler. And even if it was, it would be way outside the time span! Sorry, but I am not convinced at all that the culture should be changed, I also understand how hard evidence is to come by... We have not seen any Romanians here yet, but I have read their posts in the Scenario forum. It is a difficult question.

 

[Riddermark]

Er, but please attention to this:
"The town, along with the rest of the Dobrudzha, was ceded to Romania by terms of the 1913 treaty which marked Bulgaria's ignominious defeat in the Second Balkan War."

We can't be sure of anything but i think that all the way before 1913 it was under bulgarian rule, as we speak all the way from the first bulgarian kingdoms (before romania existed at all), through the ottoman rule, and not until this balkan war event and the following ww did it became a part of Romania for longer time.

Anyway do we all agree on Balchik being the main city ?

 

[unmerged(20844)]

i agree that it's Balchik then.
But as it seems, i have to leave this thread. Some hilarious propositions have been made. Turkish culture? visit a psychiatrist.
While, normal human logic has been denied when talking about slavonic culture. i will say this for the last time, and then i wont visit this thread again: The region was bulgarian since the 7th century. it preserved it's bulgarian ethnicity after the byzantine yoke, then again during the turkish yoke.
Cya guys, have fun tweaking reality. May the romanians come now! mwahahahaha ROFL

 

[AndrewT]

I've made Dobrudja's capital Balchik now. I'm leaving it as Slavonic culture unless I get really solid evidence otherwise. The revolter entry for BUL is set.

Riddermark, can you 100% confirm you released BUL as a vassal, and she ended up with CBs as if it were a revolter, that is on all defined Minimum and Extra provinces? Once I have that detail this thread can be closed, and I'll try to get Havard to add that info to his web page. Thanks all.

 

[Riddermark]

Yes i can confirm 100000% Even can get u a screenshot later if you don't believe me about it

Close the thread ? oww, it was quite a great discussion

 

[unmerged(6620)]

Sorry to be jumping in so late.

I'm not entirely convinced that Dobrudja's capital should be Balchik during this period. I don't pretend to know the correct answer without doing more research, but I would have thought that Constanca would be a strong contender.

The one thing you have to keep in mind about the Balkans is that the population distribution after about 1870 tends to be a bit artificial because of the various peace treaties. The region didn't look the same in the middle ages and kept changing throughout the period covered by EU2. The way you show this, I suppose, is to have a slightly different culture set-up for each scenario.

The area south of the Danube was historically part of the Roman Empire. So when the Byzantine emperors managed to reassert their authority over territories that had been lost for several centuries, they had to find a way to deal with the inconvenient fact that these territories were full of peoples who had migrated in during the Dark Ages. One of the methods that they used (when they were strong enough to attempt it) was to transplant large groups of people from reconquered provinces from one newly restored frontier to another (e.g. eastern Turkey to northern Greece). I don't remember what (if any) population switches were used in this area, but where it did occur it had a confusing impact on the local demographics. I'll see if I can find anything about this in Obolensky, assuming that I can dig him out of deep storage. I'll also see if I can find anything in Runciman, Ostrogorsky, and Vasiliiev (assuming that I still have them). I vaguely recall that the Byzantines had settled Pechenegs in the Dobrudja at one point, but that was a bit earlier than our time period and probably doesn't apply.

I don't know as much as I would like about the Ottoman period, but I suspect that Ottoman administration didn't look a whole lot different from Byzantine administration. And if they adopted Byzantine administrative machinery, they may have used similar methods. I am aware of a systematic attempt by the Porte to acquire and resettle Jewish refugees in the late 15th and 16th century, particularly in Cyprus and Thessalonica (Salonica ended up as a Jewish city, and the Spanish Ladino style became one of the dominant forms of Turkish music). These two ressetlements were probably not isolated incidents, and were probably repeated with different ethnic groups in different newly conquered border provinces. I just don't happen to recall which ones (I need to see if I still have that copy of the Ottoman Centuries...).

So to make a long story short, make changes with extreme caution, and be very careful about what you accept as fact.

 

[Riddermark]

Allright, you said yourself that you don't pretend to know the correct answer... Also without proving material this isn't helping much.I've seen in some of the materials about Constanca, but it was not a capital or main city but a fortress. Please read thoroughly post #51 and then we can argue again about the main city.

I don't think different culture set-up for each scenario is necessary. It was after 1870 as you correctly pointed that the "artifical population distribution" happened.EU2's range doesn't extend to there. I can hardly agree to the statements that all changed throughout the period covered by the game.

Anyway my main question is - why interfere when you don't say anything for certain and neither show some evidence? The discussion was puzzling enough without this sort of i-remember-some-partial-facts-of-some-time-somewhere
The period you talk about is WAY back before the ottomans occupied these territories.. First when the Byzantines conquered these lands for about 100 years, the thing they did was moving,killing,recruiting our aristocracy.And YES they really brought up the pechenegs North of danube, settling them there to control the Bulgarians.However these tribes the north bulgarian lands and devstaed them for years.The byzantines didn't try for long to protect the bulgarian people there and soon the bulgars had to start defend themselves.. Some of the pechenegs mixed up with these northern bulgars but nothing more. 3-4 of our kings had pecheneg blood in their veins (talking about 10,20% not pure pechenegs) they were still bulgarians. In the following years the pechenegs became a powerful bulgarian weapon, an ally who helped many times fight off the Byzantines.
Long story short - they did not swallow our people on the north.

You don't know much about the Ottoman period? I can tell you that even some people here don't know much You are however very correct about hte Ottoman adminisstration. The son of the last Bulgarian king Ivan Shishman, Alexander, joined the ottoman empire by the name of Iskender. He became a military leader for them That also happened to most of our aristocracy - not people masses. You see, the ottomans recruited the nobles, then they sent them to rule distant districs in this way the nobles forgot who they were. It was actually very successful policy But, after this elimination of the aristocracy, a new one was formed.

If you are trying to say that the ottomans moved large people masses you will be probably wrong. Bulgaria is full of mountains and dempse forests, very hard to cross. When the ottomans conquered us, many of the bulgarians living in the plains moved to the mountains where the turks can't get them.. There also formed the unique rebel movement of the haiduts. These were gangs of rebellious bulgars who lived in the mountains (supported by the bulgarian people) and fought the turks.Of course they might have moved some bulgars to other provinces, but the numerous rebellions until the 1700 show that these attemps were more than unsuccessful

The ottomans took from our people a blood tax - the young children and teenagers. Then, with special training they became enichars (not sure abuot the english spelling) - the fiercest part of the ottoman army.Bulgarian sons killed their own parents after, all feared them. Once a child is taken as this tax, it practically stops existing for their parents. Something else, the muslims tried to change the faith of these lands, thousands of people died by horrible tortures like impalement, hook hanging or 4 horses tearing a man. But the religion remained the same.

 

[VPeric]

If you are trying to say that the ottomans moved large people masses you will be probably wrong. Bulgaria is full of mountains and dempse forests, very hard to cross. When the ottomans conquered us, many of the bulgarians living in the plains moved to the mountains where the turks can't get them.. There also formed the unique rebel movement of the haiduts. These were gangs of rebellious bulgars who lived in the mountains (supported by the bulgarian people) and fought the turks.Of course they might have moved some bulgars to other provinces, but the numerous rebellions until the 1700 show that these attemps were more than unsuccessful

The ottomans took from our people a blood tax - the young children and teenagers. Then, with special training they became enichars (not sure abuot the english spelling) - the fiercest part of the ottoman army.Bulgarian sons killed their own parents after, all feared them. Once a child is taken as this tax, it practically stops existing for their parents. Something else, the muslims tried to change the faith of these lands, thousands of people died by horrible tortures like impalement, hook hanging or 4 horses tearing a man. But the religion remained the same.

Actually, AFAIK, the Ottomans did that to most of the lands they have conquered in the Balkans. I know they did it here, I'm just learning that from history in school.

Then, with special training they became enichars (not sure abuot the english spelling) - the fiercest part of the ottoman army

Janjichari in Serbian, Jannisary in English (I'm quite sure