The Bulgarian Question - Important!

[Riddermark]

Yes, Bulgaria again i won't let it go you know..
I just want to inform you about the injustice in the game although not done on purpose i'm sure.

What i want in short: Bulgaria gets default provinces - Bulgaria and Rumelia and Dobrudja (it must also get part of Thrace but as you see very clearly the "slicing" of this part of the Balkans didn't go very correctly....) + Claim (the shield thing) on the provinces of Macedonia and Thrace (for the above reason)

Some historical proof:

- map here - http://rhapsody.online.bg/pastmap.jpg (sorry for the scan is from a history book but in bulgarian so i added som comments hope it helps)


The fall of Bulgaria under Ottoman Rule: (just the most important part which includes the territories, at the moment of writing i don't have a map as image but i may attach it later);

- The feudal split of provinces came at the balkans at a later stage of world history, therefore at the time of this tragic for the balkans events, most of the countries were divided. The serbian kingodm which controlled Macedonia collapsed leaving whole Macedonia dotted with little provinces ruled by either serbians or bulgars. Bulgaria however, split into 3 main parts - Turnovo Kingdo, Dobrudja Kingdom and Budin (Vidin) Kingdom.. The other two were, to say, vassals, although this is not very correct, of Turnovo Kingdom. When the ottomans undertook their devastating attack these 3 Bulgarias gave them a fight which of course was lost, and Bulgaria fell part by part in Ottoman hands.

- i'm stating here that at this time Bg owned dobrudja, rumelia, bulgaria
- btw, Dobrudja's capital city is Karvuna at this time.. not Silistra (might be the old name of the city i dunno here)

Proof2: Freedom 1878
-
Look at this site: http://www.shopbulgaria.com/books/g11.htm

There you can find books in english about the bulgarian history + authentic maps of free Bulgaria 1878.
Now you can look at the map that is there, it's very clear that free Bulgaria includes : Rumelia, Bulgaria, Dobrudja, Macedonia and part of Thrace. (i say part of Thrace because in EU2 the thrace province is bigger than it should be in my opinion)
This is Bulgaria after the Union of Bulgaria. Before the Union, Free bulgaria receives Rumelia, bulgaria and Dobrudja - thus this contry is called Kniajestvo (this is some sort of count thing i can't find the englis word) Bulgaria, while the other part including Macedonia and some Thrace remains as vassal part of Turkey... However this isn't for long and soon the two bulgarian parts unite, resulting into this you see in the map.

- according to this map, owned territories are - Bg, Rumelia, Macedonia, dobrudja... ( i use game province names )
no comment

I understand that the map in the game is of earlier bulgaria but I think that i'm more than right to request:
- Bulgaria. Rumelia, Dobrudja - provinces gave when - "Create a vassal"
- Claim on Macedonia and Thrace (there was always claim in thrace territory, bg vs byzantium is not a 5 or 10 years war it's more than 1000 ! )...

I give my word this is historically correct, taken from history books and driven by patriotic feelings which DID not affect the facts in this post

phew, i hope we can agree to something here


p.p.
Look at this picture how should Thrace be cut:

http://rhapsody.online.bg/split.jpg

 

[Norrefeldt]

Are you guys sure that minimum actually applies when a province rebels? I'm pretty sure that one province nations appear even if there are several provinces in minimum. It does affect , however, when a nation is released as vassal, then all the minimum provinces gets included.

EDIT: On the culture issue, I'm pretty sure there are threads where Romanians have debated just as hotly for Dobruja as Romanian, they just don't seem to be around...

 

[Norrefeldt]

The culture of Dobruja were discussed in AGC & EEP The Balkans and some Romanians were there as well, fx Laur that seem well informed on many issues. I haven't re-read it all, but I think it could be either, Bulgarian first half of the game, and Romanian last half. Impossible to implement though..

 

[Riddermark]

From what i see here about Dobrudja

"CB shield on Dobrogea: was conquered by Mircea the Elder in late fourteenth century but, shortly before 1419 he was forced to cede it to the Porte."

seems to me that this only prooves my statement. It was all the way to the conquer of ottomans controlled by Bulgarians (look the info at the main post above).. and i admit i wasn't aware of this fact - anyway this changes nothing as this Mircea the Elder has it in 14 century which means that there is no Bulgaria at that time, If it existed i'm sure that they would had something agains it

After freeing Bulgaria dobrudja is given to us. It's ours since ww2 when tributed to Romania.

Like i mean that it culture in the period of the game is definately Bulgarian. with the right of a CB shield

 

[VPeric]

to riddermark: po dobre da dadat samo bulgaria kato minimum, za da moje da se formira darjavata, i nache shansat i dvete provincii da vastanat ednovremenno e pochti nula a te kato slojat rumelia v extra, tq sashto shte moje da se prisaedini kam BULG kogato vastane. Kazva se "defection" (nqkoq provinciq na druga darjava vastava i se prisaedinqva kam teb)

And I thought that it would be easy understanding Bulgarian, which it is, but when its written...


Srpski je mnogo lakshi da se razume, zar nije?? :rofl: Moram malo da prouchim Srbiju u EU, pa da nadjem josh neke leadere i za Srbiju, nije fer da vi imate gomilu vodja

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I agree that it should have a core on Macedonia because it did have it for long times, not because it fought wars over it. Thrace in the EU2 game is indeed badly cut and maybe Bulgaria shouldnt have a core there. This would mean Bulgarians in control of Constantinple, which never happened although they were very close on several occasions.

I agree with this one. Core on Thrace means eternal CB on Ottomans, which is bad for a bunch of reasons. I don't think they should get Thrace (Macedonia is fine).

 

[Riddermark]

yup this is mostly right, we should get half of thrace but it's impossible so i guess no cb shiled at all;

Isaac what's your opinion on Dobrudja?
i still consider the matter - Rumelia (min) & Dobrudja (bulg culture + extra) not settled )

 

[unmerged(20844)]

i'm not a fanatic at all, so i consider myself very objective. and i do think dobrudja simply MUST be bulgarian in culture... there arent much bulgarians playing EU2, but still i think the truth is this and it shouldnt be twisted because there's no one to defend it. It was kept from 7th to the 14th century until the bulgarians were conquered by the ottomans. This region was in Bulgarian hands for most of the period before EU2 time (7 centuries before that) except for the time the bulgarians were conquered by Byzantium. Later, when they liberated themselves, South Dobrudja again became a part of the new Second Bulgarian Kingdom. Isnt this enough of a proof that the pepople in the region still considered themselves bulgarian? they were in bulgaria after the turkish yoke too, so this proves they preserved their nationality through the yoke. Being under Romanian control for a decade or some other very short period (in game terms) by this Mircea(sp?) the Elderly doesnt maoe the people romanian, when they have been in bulgaria for Seven centuries... doews anyone agree with me?

 

[Riddermark]

couldn't agree more on this.
except if it's possible people who were part more than 700+ years ofe one culture to become other in just.. what, 50-60 ?

 

[AndrewT]

So, as I understand it:

1/ Riddermark says BUL could not have existed without both Bulgaria and Rumelia being part of it. No-one specifically disagrees with this.

2/ Riddermark and von Loch Ness say Dobrudja should be changed to Bulgarian culture. No-one here disagrees yet, but we can expect argument from Rumanians.

3/ Riddermark says Dobrudja's main city is KARVUNA. No-one else commented on this yet.

4/ Yet to be resolved is the exact meaning of "minimum" vs "extra" in the revolt.txt file. I thought it was that min are required and extra taken if available, but we have an opinion that that is only the case for release as vassal, and revolting nations only ever appear as one-province, presumably the capital. If no-one here knows for sure, can someone ask the Scenario forum to clarify this? Thanks.

5/ AFAIK there is no way to make CBs appear independently for a country formed by a revolt (or released as a vassal) apart from the provinces listed in revolt.txt. Again perhaps this can be clarified by the Scenario guys; do revolters and new vassals get CBs on the provinces listed in Min, Min + Extras, or what?

 

[Duuk]

Personally, I wouldn't add Rumelia to the minimums. I almost never see Bulgaria form anyway. By requiring 2 provinces to revolt, we'd end any chance of it forming.

I suppose we need a clarifier on what the settings mean.

 

[Classique]

Yet to be resolved is the exact meaning of "minimum" vs "extra" in the revolt.txt file. I thought it was that min are required and extra taken if available, but we have an opinion that that is only the case for release as vassal, and revolting nations only ever appear as one-province, presumably the capital. If no-one here knows for sure, can someone ask the Scenario forum to clarify this? Thanks.

From Havard's editing site http://home.broadpark.no/~havmoe/EU/fileedit_t.htm#revolt

"The provinces that might form the new country is listed as minimum. These provinces are also the ones the country recieves if set free as a vassal. Note that not all of the minimum provinces need to be rebel controlled for a country to form. In case of a declaration of independance from revolts the extra provinces will also join if they are rebel controlled. Note that rebel controlled provinces previous owned by several countries can form a new country this way."

 

[AndrewT]

Funny, I did check there, musta missed it.

So the only difference between minimums and extra is that the minimums form the country if created by release as a vassal, whereas both categories are equally available to form the country if created by revolt. No word on the CB situation either way; any chance someone can do some tests?


So I'm inclined to make Bulgaria and Rumelia the minimums, and Macedonia and Dobrudja extras. Doesn't seem like a good idea to include Thrace, as (assuming this would mean a CB on it) we don't want yet another cause of war in the Balkans.

 

[AndrewT]

Another point: there is no Bulgarian culture. Bulgaria itself is currently Slavonic. So I assume we're talking about making Dobrudja Slavonic, not Bulgarian?

 

[unmerged(20844)]

yes, i agree then on bulgaria and rumelia being minimums, dobrudja and macedonia being extras, we shouldnt include Thrace. It seems logical that these minimum and extra provinces would have a CB on them.
the thing about bulgarian culture's right, it should be slavonic instead.

If the CBs dont come automatically, couldnt they be added through an event? there are already plenty of countries that get additional cores so there shouldnt be a problem with the text
of the message

 

[AndrewT]

I'm not going to add new events for a revolter-only nation, it's just not worth it. We don't even know if they get CBs as it is.

 

[Riddermark]

"So I'm inclined to make Bulgaria and Rumelia the minimums, and Macedonia and Dobrudja extras."

Thumbs up for this decision if it stays;

Dobrudja Slavonic yes, anyway noone yet said anything about Dobrudja's main city from 1400+; i Still say it's Karvuna (the capital of Dobrudja Kingdom)

10x

 

[Vytis]

...noone yet said anything about Dobrudja's main city from 1400+; i Still say it's Karvuna ...

Maybe it should be called Balchik instead.
However I think that current choice of Silistria is good enough. At least it's on a map.

 

[Riddermark]

Well i'm not sure; because Balchik is probably the current biggest city; while Silistra is on a map of 1560 as you said; while in my history book of 1397 is Karvuna

 

[Twoflower]

Personally, I wouldn't add Rumelia to the minimums. I almost never see Bulgaria form anyway. By requiring 2 provinces to revolt, we'd end any chance of it forming.

I suppose we need a clarifier on what the settings mean.

Err, two wrong assumptions in one post:
1. A revolter does not need all its minimum provinces to form. In fact, a revolter can form if any of its minimum provinces is held by rebels. This means adding Rumelia to the minimum provinces would make it more likely for Bulgaria to form. It can still revolt if rebels just control Bulgaria, and in addition it is able to form if rebels hold Rumelia.
2. Bulgaria should not be likely to become independent. It never was in the EU2 timeframe.

 

[unmerged(20844)]

well from the link Vytis provided i think it clearly states Karvuna and Kaliakra as the biggest cities. Balchik is totally unreasonable i believe.
here again