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Dec 12, 2003
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Yes, Bulgaria again :) i won't let it go you know.. ;)
I just want to inform you about the injustice in the game although not done on purpose i'm sure.

What i want in short: Bulgaria gets default provinces - Bulgaria and Rumelia and Dobrudja (it must also get part of Thrace but as you see very clearly the "slicing" of this part of the Balkans didn't go very correctly....) + Claim (the shield thing) on the provinces of Macedonia and Thrace (for the above reason)

Some historical proof:

- map here - http://rhapsody.online.bg/pastmap.jpg (sorry for the scan is from a history book but in bulgarian so i added som comments hope it helps)

The fall of Bulgaria under Ottoman Rule: (just the most important part which includes the territories, at the moment of writing i don't have a map as image but i may attach it later);

- The feudal split of provinces came at the balkans at a later stage of world history, therefore at the time of this tragic for the balkans events, most of the countries were divided. The serbian kingodm which controlled Macedonia collapsed leaving whole Macedonia dotted with little provinces ruled by either serbians or bulgars. Bulgaria however, split into 3 main parts - Turnovo Kingdo, Dobrudja Kingdom and Budin (Vidin) Kingdom.. The other two were, to say, vassals, although this is not very correct, of Turnovo Kingdom. When the ottomans undertook their devastating attack these 3 Bulgarias gave them a fight which of course was lost, and Bulgaria fell part by part in Ottoman hands.

- i'm stating here that at this time Bg owned dobrudja, rumelia, bulgaria
- btw, Dobrudja's capital city is Karvuna at this time.. not Silistra :) (might be the old name of the city i dunno here)

Proof2: Freedom 1878
Look at this site: http://www.shopbulgaria.com/books/g11.htm

There you can find books in english about the bulgarian history + authentic maps of free Bulgaria 1878.
Now you can look at the map that is there, it's very clear that free Bulgaria includes : Rumelia, Bulgaria, Dobrudja, Macedonia and part of Thrace. (i say part of Thrace because in EU2 the thrace province is bigger than it should be :) in my opinion)
This is Bulgaria after the Union of Bulgaria. Before the Union, Free bulgaria receives Rumelia, bulgaria and Dobrudja - thus this contry is called Kniajestvo (this is some sort of count thing i can't find the englis word) Bulgaria, while the other part including Macedonia and some Thrace remains as vassal part of Turkey... However this isn't for long and soon the two bulgarian parts unite, resulting into this you see in the map.

- according to this map, owned territories are - Bg, Rumelia, Macedonia, dobrudja... ( i use game province names )
no comment :)

I understand that the map in the game is of earlier bulgaria but I think that i'm more than right to request:
- Bulgaria. Rumelia, Dobrudja - provinces gave when - "Create a vassal"
- Claim on Macedonia and Thrace (there was always claim in thrace territory, bg vs byzantium is not a 5 or 10 years war ;) it's more than 1000 ! ;))...

I give my word this is historically correct, taken from history books and driven by patriotic feelings :p which DID not affect the facts in this post :)

phew, i hope we can agree to something here :)

Look at this picture how should Thrace be cut:

Upvote 0
I agree that Bulgaria should have cores on Bulgaria, Rumelia, Dobrudja and Macedonia, maybe Thrace too... after all these provinces were owned by it for very long periods of time. Especially Dobrudja and Most of the EU2 Macedonia.
But to make an impression, you need to give the creators impartial info, that is not a bulgarian history book, better find some authority on the Internet.
I dont agree that Dobrudja and Rumelia should have revolt status too. After all, AFAIK, the separatist movements in the Blakans were a temporary thing. They would sooner or later have been united in the former national countries. Instead maybe Rumelia should be given to a new Bulgaria when it is granted a vassal's status.I agree that it should have a core on Macedonia because it did have it for long times, not because it fought wars over it. Thrace in the EU2 game is indeed badly cut and maybe Bulgaria shouldnt have a core there. This would mean Bulgarians in control of Constantinple, which never happened although they were very close on several occasions.
Here is my version on how the Balkans should be split in the next EU game/ or some other one.

There the number of provinces in the region is increased by one, but it makes it much more true to the terrain, also to the options for historical development (today South Dobrudja is in Bulgaria, North Dobrudja is in Romania) and to the established regional division
Note: Only the early map is from a bulgarian history book, the other stuff is from a World History book in bulgarian but no by bulgarians. anyway

AndrewT please review the main post
Here is short proof from an "independent source" :

this is about the rebels, i will continue post proofs here until someone attends


Ottoman power in Bulgaria was repeatedly challenged by popular rebellions, which tended to break out whenever Turkish armies were beaten back by those of their European neighbours. Austrian and Moldavian advances encouraged an uprising in Târnovo in 1598, and the successful Austrian and Polish campaigns of the 1680s led to widespread revolt throughout northern Bulgaria. For the most part, however, life under Ottoman rule settled down to something approaching normality in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Highland settlements such as Koprivshtitsa, Elena and Kotel were accorded privileges and allowed to accumulate wealth through trade, merchants sank their money into the renewal of churches, and the devshirme system gradually withered away. It was only with the disintegration of Ottoman provincial government in the late eighteenth century, and the emergence of the rapacious Turkish bandits known as the Kârdzhali, that the idea of Turkish rule as something fundamentally unjust and corrupt once again gripped the popular imagination. The partiality of the Ottoman legal system was one reason why many Bulgarians took to the forests to became haiduti, or outlaws.
i found it

the most of the main post stuff, including the map info (the map itself was scanned from my history book,) is taken from this book:

A Concise History of Bulgaria (Cambridge Concise Histories)
by R. J. Crampton(Paperback-- March 1997)

the book is even available at amazon.com!

BUL currently gets Bulgaria 356 as a minimum province (plus as capital) in revolt.txt and 321 Rumelia as an extra.

In short what you are asking for, I think, is to make Rumelia 321 and Dobrudja 320 as minimum provinces, and add 358 Macedonia and 357 Thrace as extras.

Is that right?
I'm not quite sure what these minimum and max things mean :)
what we want and are trying to poove here with my friend van Loch Ness is:
(i\ll explain stupidly sorry;)

When in Create a vassal: Bulgaria gets - Bulgaria, Rumelia and Dobrudja
and plus these - it have claim (the shield thing in politic map, that tells the rebels ai which provinces to try to take i guess) on Macedonia and Thrace (ok Thrace is little doubtful because the problem there is with the split of the territory itself, but on other hand BUL always fought with Byzantium for theses territories so i guess this would be a claimed territory)

that's it.. :}

and Dobrudja's main city must be changed to - Karvuna

10x :>
AndrewT said:
BUL currently gets Bulgaria 356 as a minimum province (plus as capital) in revolt.txt and 321 Rumelia as an extra.

In short what you are asking for, I think, is to make Rumelia 321 and Dobrudja 320 as minimum provinces, and add 358 Macedonia and 357 Thrace as extras.

That seems pretty sensible, although for the reasons brought up by Loch Ness I think Thrace shouldn't be included. realistically you'd like to include Adrianople and exclude Constantinople, but clearly that's impossible.

Should Rumelia really be a minimum rather than an extra?
Soo.. minimum means that this is default territory given when for example create a vassal..

if that so yes, Bulgaria, Rumelia, Dobrudja - minimum
Macedonia and Thrace - extra

If it's impossible to do this with Thrace don't :) Isaac Brook is right that about the division of Thrace.
Isaac Brock said:
That seems pretty sensible, although for the reasons brought up by Loch Ness I think Thrace shouldn't be included. realistically you'd like to include Adrianople and exclude Constantinople, but clearly that's impossible.

Should Rumelia really be a minimum rather than an extra?

right about Adrianople. Maybe the provinces will be cut better in the next Paradox game :)
I do think Rumelia should be among the minimum provinces, because The bulgarian capitals (Pliska, Preslav, Veliko Tarnovo...) were always in the region between Bulgaria and Rumelia (as they are in the EU2 map; they're not exactly placed :) ). And this territory was held from the very first days of the Bulgarian khanate and later on kingdom.
Should Rumelia be a minimum? come on :)) Take a look on any map of Bulgaria at any stage of its history and tell me should it be a minimum ;)

note: mhm ^ this wasn't intended to be insult-like :>
Not taken as such. The question is whether a revolting Bulgaria could have formed only in the uplands (Bulgaria province) if Rumelia is NOT controlled by rebels. It seems to me that it could have done so.
There was no way to not be controlled by rebels, as van Loch Ness stated the capital cities were all somewhere between Bulgaria and Rumelia, therefore these two are taken more as a whole piece not seperate.. like you wanna tell me that 1/3 of the people revolt and keep the province they freed and 2/3 can't?

In that case why don't all rebel countries have 1 province only? ;)
just take a look in revolt.txt, you can't for example give France only - il de france..

AndrewT understood me correctly at the beginning, i think he is the one to decide whether or not to fix that, based on all said so far :)

Isaac Brock, or you might have something against the country having more than 1 province?

We are not trying to proove probabilites here, i included some prooves of how things happened and what is rightful territory.
it's quite simple:
Before Ottomans we had these provinces, after them we had them + macedonia, after ww1 and 2 we lost macedonia...

only bulgaria province is making it more like a fiction country than anything else
Dobruja has the culture Romanian. It seems odd, unless we give Bulgaria the culture Romanian to go with it (not much justification for that in the EU2 time period - 919 yes, 1419 no) for Bulgaria will have a "foreign" province as a minimum - especially with Wallachia or Moldavia being two of the likeliest nations to create Bulgaria in the first place.
lol :)
1.Dobrudja may have culture - indian as well, who said that the creators are right?
2.Dobrudja's main city is Silistra - you know where that is ? ;)
3.I haven;t posted all the proof stuff for nothing, you can check it out and see that in time of ottoman conquer there are 3 bulgarian kingdoms working as one whole thing - dorbudja, turnovo and Budin (which is nowadays Vidin);
4.I agree it looks strange on the map, but the question of the improper slice of those parts of the balkans was brought up above.
Riddermark, I don't think you understand what Isaac was saying. He's asking whether it was possible for a Bulgaria formed by revolt to only include the Bulgaria province, or whether it had to have Rumelia as well. In other words, was Rumelia necessary for Bulgaria to form by revolt, or could it have happened only with the province Bulgaria?

That is, if the province Bulgaria revolts but Rumelia does not, would you like the nation Bulgaria to be able to form or not? If the province Bulgaria is the only necessary one, then the others are all put in the extra category - Bulgaria will take them during formation if available, but they are not necessary.

BTW, you are skating very close to rudeness in some of your replies. All opinions are welcome here. Respond factually please.

The Impaler is right to bring up the matter of culture; it does seem odd to require a Rumanian province to join before Bulgaria is allowed to be formed.

As it stands I intend to add Rumelia 321, Dobrudja 320, 358 Macedonia and 357 Thrace as extras only, as I don't believe any of them are required before Bulgaria can form.
Ok ok i perfectly got what Isaac was saying. I'm sure that Bulgaria couldn't have formed only in this province, At least Rumelia is necessary.

I'm sorry if it looks like rudeness, like it wasn't intended to sound like that.

About the Impaler's post - of course Dobrudja is set to Romanian culture - i'm sure that the lack of info about the past of my country lead to this.Remember that Sofia was put as capital, i mean that the creators took the current situation. After ww2 Dobdrudja was taken from Bulgaria and give to Romania, therefore the authors of the game took the current info.It's my opinion :)

So i lastly ask you to add at least Rumelia as minimum and the others extra.

I really don't see what the big deal is here - most of the players of the game would NEVER play as Bulgaria nor release it as vassal, and the event of accidently forming in the ottoman empire seems unlikely. Thus if not created with purpose to play with this country noone will ever even see it.

Isaac, Impaler - sorry if sounded rude :)
i think there's some misunderstanding here. When a country revolts, its minimum provinces must all revolt, and when it forms, it is given the revolting provinces (including extras if they revolted too).
Am i right? i dont know much about this so...

the 2 scenarios are like this:
1. Bulgaria is given only the province bulgaria as a minimum and the rest are extras. Then whe the province revolts, the country is formed with only Bulgaria as province and possibly some other extra province if it has revolted too.
2. BUL is given Bulgarian and rumelian provinces. For Bul to form, BOTH of its minimum provinces must revolt. if only Bulgaria revolts, it will not form. From this point of view it is better to give it only bulgaria as a minimum province...

i hope i havent misunderstood anything.

to riddermark: po dobre da dadat samo bulgaria kato minimum, za da moje da se formira darjavata, i nache shansat i dvete provincii da vastanat ednovremenno e pochti nula:) a te kato slojat rumelia v extra, tq sashto shte moje da se prisaedini kam BULG kogato vastane. Kazva se "defection" (nqkoq provinciq na druga darjava vastava i se prisaedinqva kam teb)

(This was for the purpose of avoiding further misunderstandings :) )

Another misunderstanding: Dobrudja simply MUST have Bulgarian culture. It was the first land the Bulgars conquered and the first capitals were near it. It has always been a real-life "core province"
The fact is that Paradox took the current political situation and they thought it was like that 600 years ago. Well it wasnt, Dobrudja was fully Bulgarian, as the territorial location of the 3 Bulgarian kingdoms in 1390+ shows. It was given to Romania as a gift really, after WW2. The Bulgarian national doctrine has always included it as a province that is populated with Bulgarians. However, current and near-past political situation never offered the opportunity to take Northern Dobrudja back.
I strongly support that its culture is changed.
+ i have to say again that Dobrudja's main city is KARVUNA

i'm still not understanding the necessary province thing.. it's not logical.
If so, why does some rebel countries have 2-3 provinces while other not?
according to your saying - they could have formed only in 1 province ;)

or if you annex france, why they receive a bunch of provinces? they could do with only il de france right ;)

anyway i'm staying with *at least* Rumelia+Bulgaria thing as minimum

10x :)