The Bulgarian Question - Important!

[Riddermark]

Yes, Bulgaria again i won't let it go you know..
I just want to inform you about the injustice in the game although not done on purpose i'm sure.

What i want in short: Bulgaria gets default provinces - Bulgaria and Rumelia and Dobrudja (it must also get part of Thrace but as you see very clearly the "slicing" of this part of the Balkans didn't go very correctly....) + Claim (the shield thing) on the provinces of Macedonia and Thrace (for the above reason)

Some historical proof:

- map here - http://rhapsody.online.bg/pastmap.jpg (sorry for the scan is from a history book but in bulgarian so i added som comments hope it helps)


The fall of Bulgaria under Ottoman Rule: (just the most important part which includes the territories, at the moment of writing i don't have a map as image but i may attach it later);

- The feudal split of provinces came at the balkans at a later stage of world history, therefore at the time of this tragic for the balkans events, most of the countries were divided. The serbian kingodm which controlled Macedonia collapsed leaving whole Macedonia dotted with little provinces ruled by either serbians or bulgars. Bulgaria however, split into 3 main parts - Turnovo Kingdo, Dobrudja Kingdom and Budin (Vidin) Kingdom.. The other two were, to say, vassals, although this is not very correct, of Turnovo Kingdom. When the ottomans undertook their devastating attack these 3 Bulgarias gave them a fight which of course was lost, and Bulgaria fell part by part in Ottoman hands.

- i'm stating here that at this time Bg owned dobrudja, rumelia, bulgaria
- btw, Dobrudja's capital city is Karvuna at this time.. not Silistra (might be the old name of the city i dunno here)

Proof2: Freedom 1878
-
Look at this site: http://www.shopbulgaria.com/books/g11.htm

There you can find books in english about the bulgarian history + authentic maps of free Bulgaria 1878.
Now you can look at the map that is there, it's very clear that free Bulgaria includes : Rumelia, Bulgaria, Dobrudja, Macedonia and part of Thrace. (i say part of Thrace because in EU2 the thrace province is bigger than it should be in my opinion)
This is Bulgaria after the Union of Bulgaria. Before the Union, Free bulgaria receives Rumelia, bulgaria and Dobrudja - thus this contry is called Kniajestvo (this is some sort of count thing i can't find the englis word) Bulgaria, while the other part including Macedonia and some Thrace remains as vassal part of Turkey... However this isn't for long and soon the two bulgarian parts unite, resulting into this you see in the map.

- according to this map, owned territories are - Bg, Rumelia, Macedonia, dobrudja... ( i use game province names )
no comment

I understand that the map in the game is of earlier bulgaria but I think that i'm more than right to request:
- Bulgaria. Rumelia, Dobrudja - provinces gave when - "Create a vassal"
- Claim on Macedonia and Thrace (there was always claim in thrace territory, bg vs byzantium is not a 5 or 10 years war it's more than 1000 ! )...

I give my word this is historically correct, taken from history books and driven by patriotic feelings which DID not affect the facts in this post

phew, i hope we can agree to something here


p.p.
Look at this picture how should Thrace be cut:

http://rhapsody.online.bg/split.jpg

 

[Riddermark]

Well actually they more killed here than moved people masses. At the beginning maybe but later it was just killing. Anyway in my books its said that bulgarians ran to the mountains and most of the people saved themselves there. Some regions didn't even pay taxes because the ottomans was afraid to go deep in the forests, cuz of the haiduts.

yeah in bulgarian is pronounced Janjichari too, it's spelled enichar


Vperic: Koja godina Serbia pada pod Ottomansko robstvo?

 

[unmerged(20077)]

I've made Dobrudja's capital Balchik now. I'm leaving it as Slavonic culture unless I get really solid evidence otherwise. The revolter entry for BUL is set.

Now I'm confused - do you mean you're changing it to Slavonic from Romanian or that you're leaving it as Romanian...?

 

[DPS]

Sorry to be jumping in so late.

I'm not entirely convinced that Dobrudja's capital should be Balchik during this period. I would have thought that Constanca would be a strong contender.

I agree, simply because of the odd way the province boundaries are drawn on the EU II map; in game terms it appears to me that the other cities mentioned as possibilities are in what the map shows as part of Rumelia, not Dobruja.

 

[VPeric]

Vperic: Koja godina Serbia pada pod Ottomansko robstvo?

1459. Major fight before were Marica (1371) and Kosovo (1389) where turkish sultan Murad(t??) died. Ya know, I could talk about this for hours, so is there something specific you wanted to know?

 

[unmerged(20844)]

I agree, simply because of the odd way the province boundaries are drawn on the EU II map; in game terms it appears to me that the other cities mentioned as possibilities are in what the map shows as part of Rumelia, not Dobruja.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

<--- says a prayer and runs in total panic and fear

 

[VPeric]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

<--- says a prayer and runs in total panic and fear

Didn't you say you aren't coming to this thread anymore??

 

[unmerged(20844)]

it was so so tempting to make myself look like an idiot


i've been coming here to see the thread's "progress"
but it seems like it's moving with an average speed of -0.1m/s

would anyone here want to get a decent map? the things are skewed a bit on the EU2 map (esp. the Danube's bed) but it only changes things in Dobrudja and the respective prvince on the other side of the river. Rumelia, however, is totally, totally different from Dobrudja, and as far as i am concerned, nocities that are currently in Dobrudja should be in Rumelia in the EU2 map.
Once again, i hope there are no more provocatively brave statements here that will cause me arhythmia :wacko: :wacko:

 

[Riddermark]

And i want to ask everyone something: I BEG you DON'T jump in the post just to say that you THINK something is not that or other but you're NOT sure.. I see no reason to build these artifical obstacles.If you are to intervene, at least find some heavy evidence and then argue. Thanks


Vperic, no man i just wanted to know which date it was, i was too lazy to check in the book thanks..

 

[DPS]

And i want to ask everyone something: I BEG you DON'T jump in the post just to say that you THINK something is not that or other but you're NOT sure.. I see no reason to build these artifical obstacles.If you are to intervene, at least find some heavy evidence and then argue. Thanks

OK, I don't just THINK the provinces are drawn oddly on the EU II map; I KNOW darn well that Rumelia doesn't border the Danube.

 

[unmerged(20844)]

well i've posted already, so why not continue
actually, DPS, Rumelia bordered Danube. This was the ottomans' way of calling the whole region of modern-day Bulgaria, Northern Greece, Macedonia, and parts of Serbia. The piece that was later called Eastern Rumelia was in the Thracian lowlands (the region around the Maritsa river.) So Eastern Rumelia did not border Danube, but the whole Rumelia did. The province of Dobrudja is correctly placed. And though it may not border Eastern Rumelia, the cities that are now located in Dobrudja are there in the EU2 map too. Perhaps the provinces shouldnt have been sliced this way (see my first post in this thread.) The part of EU2 rumelia that borders EU2 dobrudja is called Ludogorsko plateau, and is part of the Danubian plain in modern-day Bulgaria (stretching south of the bed of Danube from the river Timok to the Black Sea coast)
Ok? What map are you looking at, btw?

 

[Dibo]

So it seems I'm not the only Bulgarian at these forums
As for the discussion here - here is what I think:
1. Provinces in EU2 map in the Balkans are sure not enough to satisfy all national claims existing.
2. The current forming of Bulgaria, including Bulgaria and Rumelia is IMHO fine. My fellow-comaptriots arguing here will surely agree that these two provinces would be the most likely CORE to form the newly independent Bulgaria. Just remember the Assen rebelion or the after-1878 Bulgaria.
3. As for the cultures, I do agree Dobrudja shall be in all circumstances slavonic and not romanian well untill the 19th century.
4. The question of Macedonia having slavic culture is difficult - it includes Thessaloniki (and this town is Greek), however most of the population was indeed slavonic (whether Macedonian, Bulgarian, Serbian, etc ).
5. Thrace and Constantinople itself is undoubtedly Greek.
6. Neither Constanta or Karvuna (Balchik) are suitable for capitals of Dobrudja.

 

[unmerged(6620)]

Still not sure what the chief city of the Dobrudja should be in reality, but in game terms I think you can make a case for leaving it as Silistria.

Maps aren't very good sources for this kind of thing, but the only towns in the area that show up on the maps in the Ottoman Centuries for our period are Varna (too far south) and Silistria.

The borders of regions in EU are a bit odd, and I think it's probably fair to say that the game region of Dobrudja includes a bit more territory than the real geographical area. So Silistria seems to be included in the Dobrudja even though, technically, it's right next door. Who's to say, though, how far upstream the EU2 border really lies...

Because local hotel association websites aren't the most authoritative source materials (apart from reservations), I thought it might be useful to consult something with a bit more of a track record. So a brief glance at the 11th edition Encyclopedia Britannica turned up no specific mention of any place as the chief town of the Dobrudja (not surprising -- it was probably mostly swamp back then), though it did mention Constanca in passing. Constanca gets its own listing, but doesn't really sound important enough to be a regional capital. Balchik and the other contenders, though they do show up on a map of Bulgaria in the Bulgaria article, don't even get mentioned. This, on the other hand, is the entry for Silistria prior to the events of 1810:

Quote

Silistria (Bulgarian Silistra), the chief town of a department in Bulgaria and the see of an archbishop, situated on a low-lying peninsula projecting into the Danube, 81 m. below Rstchuk and close to the frontier of the Romanian Dobrudja. Pop. (1892) 11,718; (1900) 12,135; (1908) 12,055, of whom 6142 were Bulgarians and 4126 Turks. The town was formerly a fortress of great strength, occupying the N.E. corner of the famous quadrilateral (Rustchuk, Silistra, Shmula, Varna), but its fortifications were demolished in accordance with the Berlin Treaty (1878). In the town is a large subterranean cavern, the Houmbata, which served as a refuge for its inhabitants during frequent bombardments. The principal trade is in cereals; wine and wood are also exported. The town is surrounded by fine vineyards, some 30 kinds of grapes being cultivated, and tobacco is grown. Sericulture, formerly a flourishing industry, has declined owing to a disease of the silk-worms, but efforts have been made to revive it. Apiculture is extensively practised and there are large market-gardens in the neighborhood. The soil of the department is fertile, but lacking in water; the inhabitants have excavated large receptacles in which rain-water is stored. A considerable area is still covered with forest, to which the region owes its name of Deli Orman ("the wild wood"); there are extensive tracks of pasturage, but cattle-rearing declined in 1880-1910. A large cattle-fair, lasting three days, is held in May. The town possessed in 1910 one steam flour-mill and some cloth factories and tanneries.

Silistria was the Durostorum of the Romans (Bulgarian Drstr); the ancient name remains in the title of the archbishop who is styled metropolitan of Dorostol, and whose diocese is now united with that of Tcherven (Rustchuk). It was one of the most important towns of Moesia Inferior and was successively the headquarters of the legio I. (Italica) and the legio XI. (Claudia). It was defended by the Bulgarian tsar Simeon against the Magyars and Greeks in 893. In 967 it was captured by the Russian prince Sviatoslav, whom the Byzantine emperor Nicephorus Phocas had summoned to his assistance. In 971 Sviatoslav, after a three months' heroic defense, surrendered the town to the Byzantines, who had meanwhile become his enemies. In 1388 it was captured by the Turks under Ali Pasha, the grand vizier of the sultan Murad. A few years later it seems to have been in the possession of the Walachian prince Mircea, but after his defeat by Mahommed I. in 1416 it passed finally into the hands of the Turks. Silistria flourished under Ottoman rule; Haji Khalifa describes it as the most important of all the Danubian towns; a Greek metropolitan was installed here with five bishops under his control and a settlement of Ragusan merchants kept alive its commercial interests.

Unquote

(Encycl. Brit. 11th edition, 1910, s.v. Silistria)

A town has to be pretty significant to get that many clerics. I think what it boils down to is that Silistria is important enough that it needs to show up somewhere, and that the boundaries of EU regions are generous enough to probably allow including it in the Dobrudja. The other towns under consideration are pretty much non-entities, except for Constanca, which is very close to being a non-entity.

Figuring out the appropriate culture for the Dobrudgea is a lot harder. What I've seen suggests that it was mixed, that it probably got more mixed up during this period, and that the process accelerated during the nineteenth century. It will need some serious research to pin this down, but from the little that I have seen the answer won't be Romanian (and I'd be surprised if you get an argument from the Romanians about this). Slavonic seems to me to be a very good option because it covers a multitude of sins.

As an aside, I think there may be some support for remembering Ottoman population transfers. In the ethnology section of the 11th edition's Bulgarian article I noticed this comment:

" The Bulgarians, who constitute 77.14% of the inhabitants of the kingdom, are found in their purest type in the mountain districts, the Ottoman conquest and subsequent colonization having introduced a mixed population into the plains.

The devastation of the country which followed the Turkish invasion resulted in the extirpation or flight of a large proportion of the Bulgarian inhabitants of the lowlands, who were replaced by Turkish colonists. The mountainous districts, however, retained their original population and sheltered large numbers of the fugitives."

(Encycl. Brit. 11th edition, 1910, s.v. Bulgaria)


And I'm still wondering what happened to Bessarabia...

 

[unmerged(23747)]

My first post ever on Paradox Forums...
I'll risk making things even more complicated for the sake of voicing my own opinion...

On provinces-Bulgaria should have Bulgaria, Rumelia and Dobrudja as core, Macedonia as an extra.
My rationale - Bulgaria cannot exist without a Black Sea Outlet (and rarely did - for 750 yrs of independence only for 70 she didnot hold the Dobrudja coastland). Thrace+Macedonia - Bulgaria NEVER, EVER held Thesaloniki (sp?) and Constantinople, but had substantial and long possession of their hinderlands populated by slavonophonics. I advocate trading the one for the other - get a claim on Macedonia - leave Thrace to the Greeks, Latins, Turks. and the rest.

On population statistics - the three core provinces should have slavonic culture and Bulgarian majority in population.
My rationale - let's concern ourselves with 1420 AD. The Turkish conquerors of South-Eastern Europe will not move to permanent settelments untill they suffer their first defeats. Silistra to this day has a huge Turkish minority, Sofia herself was mostly Turkish in the 1850s. But in 1420 AD I do not believe there were large permanent settlements of Turks in these cities - trading and cultivating the countryside. Enc. Britannica explains how the Bulgarians live in the mountains and the Turks populate the plains. They fail to observe that this was a cyclical event. In an outbreak of religious fevor the Muslims will purge the Christian settlements in the plains with the surviviors fleeing to the mountains. In 5 years the dust settles down and the Christians move back to their old villages. And in 50 years during the next Russo-Turkish war again the same thing. This went on for centuries and the Christians were always a majority over the Balkans region as a whole. Many Turkish people lived in modern day Bulgaria in the 1870s, but most of them were being displaced for centuries, as the Ottoman Empire lost lands from the Crimea to Bosna, and most Turks moved further and further down south, until the finally stopped in Anadola in the 1920s.

On Dobrudja's capital - should be Silistra.
My rationale - the province is under Turkish rule and they thought this town to be strategically viable enough to make it the capital of a huge villaet. The fact that the rulers of the land for the previous thousand years have failed to realize this fact should not detter us from accurately portraying the town as the center of Turkish authority over the region.

Finally - Merry Christmas and a verry happy New Year to y'all.

 

[AndrewT]

Now I'm confused - do you mean you're changing it to Slavonic from Romanian or that you're leaving it as Romanian...?

I had already changed it from Romanian to Slavonic. I was saying I was leaving it as Slavonic as the person arguing it should be made back to Romanian did not convince me.

 

[AndrewT]

So I've made the capital of Dobrujda to Silistria now ... tumdetumdetumdetum ...

 

[unmerged(20844)]

well, at least we changed one thing...
but it'd be funny if someone could count how many times we changed the capital of the notorious Dobrudja... i almost, well maybe entirely, feel sorry for AndrewT

 

[AndrewT]

I think I'll just change it to "D" and leave it at that - no-one can argue that "D" isn't the capital of Dobrujda

 

[unmerged(20844)]

rofl, wise, that'll prolly put an end to any disputes about the province...
perhaps we should recommend this to our friends in solving other major Balkan crises..