[Submod] Norse Heritage Overhaul - and other tweaks for HIP (Updated for Frosty3)

[antidualist]

I'd love to hear your opinions about it when you've played with it for a while.


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I currently have a few ideas what I want to work on next: Firstly I want to revise Norman names ("Willelme" rather than "William" etc.) for which I have a nice and handy source. Secondly I want to have a look at the state of early Russia, involving a new melting-pot, though that is quite time consuming, so there's no knowing when it'll materialise.

Other than that, I've made a few minor changes and additions, most notably the change to raiding mentioned above, but also some additional early Icelandic characters (including an Easter egg... something about heavy knives and ravens flying). I might release a small patch soon, before starting work on any major new aspect.

Any chance of bringing back a Scots culture (i.e. west germanic/albanich) melting pot culture? My memory is that it existed in an early version but was then removed.

 

[G.Strategos]

Any chance of bringing back a Scots culture (i.e. west germanic/albanich) melting pot culture? My memory is that it existed in an early version but was then removed.

Agreed, it was included in another submod as well.

 

[Erilaz]

Any chance of bringing back a Scots culture (i.e. west germanic/albanich) melting pot culture? My memory is that it existed in an early version but was then removed.

Yes, it's something I have on my to-do list.

It didn't make the transition from the old mod version for 2.3.6 to the later modular format that I opted into - it wasn't so much removed as simply postponed... but not forgotten.

One of the reasons it hasn't been prioritised is that I'm uncertain how it should be done. The old setup had a rather early split; it kind of worked two ways, with the province culture representing the Anglophone Lowland Scottish peoples (spreading slowly north- and westwards) and the character culture representing both the arguably Anglo-Saxon Lowland nobles (like Gospatric) and the later English- and Norman-influenced nobles and kings (e.g. the sons of Malcolm III), thus reflecting an Anglophile (in the sense that cultural elements would be highly influenced by English and Norman) rather than a strictly Anglophone culture.

Using "Scots" for the culture is a bit problematic since this usually refers to the language that wouldn't really develop until the very end of the time-frame. For the province culture, the correct term would simply be English or possibly "Inglis", but this would not do to represent the higher classes, i.e. the character culture...

I'm leaning towards a slightly later emergence than the old one (where it was already present in 1066), but still earlier than the language.

Perhaps the culture would be better suited as one for integration of the English in the Lowlands? This would make it much less important though, and it probably shouldn't happen until the late 13th century.

It's all up to debate.

Agreed, it was included in another submod as well.

I believe you mean that Walter included NHO (and thus also the melting pot) in his submod, right? I don't think I've seen a Scots melting pot somewhere else.

 

[antidualist]

I think the second option of the later emergence is better, not clear that we need a seperate Inglis culture to represent the lothian Anglcyn provinces as well. Something that emerges fairly late on (e.g. after 1200) in Westgermanic provinces under scots rule or lowland scottish provinces (including Strathclyde under english rule seems the right way to go). Maybe have it so that once the culture emerges it has a chance of converting neirbouring cumbric culture provinces who don't have a cumbric ruler....

Yes, it's something I have on my to-do list.

It didn't make the transition from the old mod version for 2.3.6 to the later modular format that I opted into - it wasn't so much removed as simply postponed... but not forgotten.

One of the reasons it hasn't been prioritised is that I'm uncertain how it should be done. The old setup had a rather early split; it kind of worked two ways, with the province culture representing the Anglophone Lowland Scottish peoples (spreading slowly north- and westwards) and the character culture representing both the arguably Anglo-Saxon Lowland nobles (like Gospatric) and the later English- and Norman-influenced nobles and kings (e.g. the sons of Malcolm III), thus reflecting an Anglophile (in the sense that cultural elements would be highly influenced by English and Norman) rather than a strictly Anglophone culture.

Using "Scots" for the culture is a bit problematic since this usually refers to the language that wouldn't really develop until the very end of the time-frame. For the province culture, the correct term would simply be English or possibly "Inglis", but this would not do to represent the higher classes, i.e. the character culture...

I'm leaning towards a slightly later emergence than the old one (where it was already present in 1066), but still earlier than the language.

Perhaps the culture would be better suited as one for integration of the English in the Lowlands? This would make it much less important though, and it probably shouldn't happen until the late 13th century.

It's all up to debate.




I believe you mean that Walter included NHO (and thus also the melting pot) in his submod, right? I don't think I've seen a Scots melting pot somewhere else.

 

[G.Strategos]

I believe you mean that Walter included NHO (and thus also the melting pot) in his submod, right? I don't think I've seen a Scots melting pot somewhere else.

Υep. Walter's mod indeed.

 

[killtor]

For some reason when I have NHO Base activated, the 1018-1066 start dates have Denmark and Sweden (and characters from said areas) as "noculture". Not sure if it's due to clashing with other mods or something else.

Spoiler

 

[Erilaz]

For some reason when I have NHO Base activated, the 1018-1066 start dates have Denmark and Sweden (and characters from said areas) as "noculture". Not sure if it's due to clashing with other mods or something else.

Spoiler

You're probably right. It's a conflict with another mod. Which other mods are you using?

I'm more surprised that Jutland is still Norse for some reason, really... I wonder what mod decided to change that.

It's almost certainly due to some other mod using the full 00_culture.txt file, which means the new Scandinavian intermediary cultures I recently added won't be present (among other things, like all my work on Norse and Norse-derived names for example).


PS. I might add that the main reason for me to include the 00_culture.txt file instead of using a separate one is that some things can only be added, not removed (e.g. the use of patronyms: you can add them, but I can't overrule that when it's been added - I have to replace the file that adds it, which in this case is that very important and widely used file, unfortunately).

 

[killtor]

Here's the full list of mods I'm currently using:
Age of Empires 2 Music: HD Edition
Bibliophile
Cadet Dynasty Tool
Crusader Mounts
Friendly Non-Aggression Pacts
HIP - Expanded Trade
HIP - Historical Immersion Project
HIP - Iberian Project
HIP - More Cultural Names (might be this?)
HIP - More Cultures and Religions (or this?)
HIP - No Early Bascinets or Great Helms
HIP - Unique Buildings
Icons of Sound
Icons of Sound - Lamentations of the Slavs
Medieval Music (5 parts)
Mend the Eastern Schism - HIP
NHO Base
NHO Icelandic Republic
NHO Map Changes
New Buildings and Effects mod
New Immersive Events
No Early Wendish Kingdoms HIP
Rich Childhood
Sin Resources
Sin's Visit Chambers
Slavic Music
Song Mod: Total War: Medieval (3 parts)
Songs of Zoroastrian Persia
The Great Trade League
The Orders of Chivalry
The Sufi Schools
Warrior Kings
Your Personal Castle

 

[Erilaz]

Here's the full list of mods I'm currently using:
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That's quite a lot of mods!

It's "HIP - Iberian Project". I have it listed as incompatible in the first post, by the way.

Iberian Project conflicts with both 00_cultures.txt (in which it doesn't seem to change anything other than two or three names, so that can safely be removed) and swmh_landed_titles.txt (this is more tricky since he's added a Kingdom of Algarve and changed the formation requirements for the Empire of Spain... though it's disabled by default now anyway). I'm not sure how important those changes are to the rest of his mod. You can try to add his changes to my file if you like, there's not that many, at least compared to mine (find his changes by using WinMerge for example, and comparing his file to the unmodded HIP file).

PS. Oh, and now I see he's also overwritten HIP localisation files, so that may overwrite most of my work on noble titles etc. (I don't overwrite these, instead using my own separate ones).

But again, the main culprit in terms of the missing cultures is 00_cultures.txt, the others will only mean that much of my localisation work may be lost...

 

[Erilaz]

I have one last update before the Holy Fury patch. It addresses a few issues and adds a few new things as well.

CHANGELOG:
16-10-18
Main Part (formerly "Base"):
- Rework of Norman naming list using Old Norman, and renaming of all Norman historical character to conform with this.
- More early Icelandic characters (including Hrafna-Flóki, family of Ingólfr Arnarson, etc.).
- Once again follows EMF's line on AI raiding at sea (Wends and Estonians no longer allowed).
- Further work on (especially East) Norse noble titles.
- Other minor changes.
Icelandic Republic:
- The Icelandic Republic is Duke-tier once again since King-tier makes it too powerful.
Latin and Greek Religious Titles:
- Initial release.
- All Catholic and Orthodox title work from NHO Base moved to this tweak to keep a tight focus:
- Catholic religious titles use Latin, and Orthodox religious titles use Greek, instead of English.
- The in-game "Autocephalous Patriarchs" are now called "Mitropolitis" (Metropolitan) since real Patriarchs beside the Ecumenical one only appeared in the Pentarchy and in Bulgaria within the game's time frame; the temple holdings where they appeared will now give the title "Patriarkhes" if held by an Orthodox character and "Patriarcha" if held by a Catholic character.


I know that the tweak section is getting a bit cluttered, but I can't help it; NHO needs to stay focused, so any changes that are too far from the main scope needs to be separate, hence the new tweak: "Latin and Greek Religious Titles" which makes all priests and religious title holders use Latin (for Catholics) or Greek (for Orthodox) - these can't be localised for each culture since the religion overrules, and in my opinion this solution is the best, much preferable to generic English titles. In the future I intend to do more work on individual church holdings to make sure they use the correct tier (e.g. too many bishoprics in Russia currently, many of them should be monastaries, a few should be archbishoprics).

NOTE: You have to clear your gfx-folder (found here: "...\Documents\Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings II\HIP\gfx") when activating the new tweak for the first time. This is due to more advanced (cleaner) use of the landed_titles files. If you get messed up flags, it's because you haven't done this.

Spoiler

NHO Main Part

Features:

• Reworked Norse culture split, including four brand new cultures in Scandinavia and a completely overhauled language setup. See here for details.
• Overhauled Norse and Norse-derived (including melting pot) character and dynasty names as well as noble and landed title localisation.
• New or tweaked names and localisation for neighbouring cultures (Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Balto-Slavic, and Finno-Ugric), including an effort to replace all remaining "High Chiefs".
• Changes and corrections to the title and character setup in and around the Scandinavian kingdoms.
  
• Revision of the Rus setup, with a new Polotsk cadet branch of the Rurikids, revised succession laws for Kiev, and fixes to the Novgorod Republic, etc.
• Tweaked Norse-Gaelic and Anglo-Danish melting-pots.
  
• Other minor changes that enhance the experience when playing within the Norse sphere of influence.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required)

Download:
Direct (16-10-18)



NHO Icelandic Republic

Features:

• Iceland as a republic with all the lawspeakers, important chieftains, and major clans of the age, several saga figures, and a complete line of Bishops for both of the Icelandic dioceses.
• Important families of the Faeroe Islands around the time of conversion to Christianity and an extra holding to make the struggles for/against conversion and integration into the Norwegian Kingdom more interesting; this holding later being replaced by the diocese of the Islands.
• Unreformed pagans can use the "convert to merchant republic" decision (when all other requirements are met).
  
• Added modifiers to portray the pre-colonisation (no levies), the Landnám, and the climate.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required), NHO Main Part

Download:
Direct (16-10-18)



Latin and Greek Religious Titles

Features:
Catholic religious titles use Latin, and Orthodox religious titles use Greek, instead of English.
The in-game "Autocephalous Patriarchs" are now called "Mitropolitis" (Metropolitan) since real Patriarchs beside the Ecumenical one only appeared in the Pentarchy and in Bulgaria within the game's time frame; instead the temple holdings where they appeared will now give the title "Patriarkhes" if held by an Orthodox character and "Patriarcha" if held by a Catholic character.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required)

Download:
Direct (16-10-18)

 

[G.Strategos]

Can't keep up with you buddy. Waiting for the weekend to play. I'm thinking to add Normans, Wends and Estonians for raiders though.

allow_looting = yes
seafarer = yes

should be added, right ?

Cheers

 

[Erilaz]

Can't keep up with you buddy. Waiting for the weekend to play. I'm thinking to add Normans, Wends and Estonians for raiders though.

allow_looting = yes
seafarer = yes

should be added, right ?

Cheers

Adding "allow_looting = yes" will allow the culture (regardless of religion or government type) to raid infidel neighbours.

Adding "seafarer = yes" only affects the AI, making it raid with ships, if allowed to raid in the first place (players can always use ships). This means that Christian Faeroe Islanders can set sail to raid the coast of Muslim Spain for example, due to the culture (Norse) allowing both looting and seafaring.

I've added "seafarer = yes" to the Normans, just in case we get pagan/tribal Normans, but I probably wouldn't make the culture itself able to loot.

Wends and Estonians are both able to loot due to their religion (if still pagan), their tribal government AND their culture currently. They aren't allowed to use ships though, and that's because they tend to go raid England, which is very ahistorical.

But yes, if you want crazy stuff like that to happen, you know how to do it now ;-)

 

[G.Strategos]

Adding "allow_looting = yes" will allow the culture (regardless of religion or government type) to raid infidel neighbours.

Adding "seafarer = yes" only affects the AI, making it raid with ships, if allowed to raid in the first place (players can always use ships). This means that Christian Faeroe Islanders can set sail to raid the coast of Muslim Spain for example, due to the culture (Norse) allowing both looting and seafaring.

I've added "seafarer = yes" to the Normans, just in case we get pagan/tribal Normans, but I probably wouldn't make the culture itself able to loot.

Wends and Estonians are both able to loot due to their religion (if still pagan), their tribal government AND their culture currently. They aren't allowed to use ships though, and that's because they tend to go raid England, which is very ahistorical.

But yes, if you want crazy stuff like that to happen, you know how to do it now ;-)

Thanks buddy. I appreciate the full explanation
Cheers.

 

[G.Strategos]

Hey buddy. I'm having a few crashes lately. Admittedly I'm using many mods, but I always make sure they're compatible with each other and lately I have only added the Call to arms and Latin and Greek Religious Titles HIP on top of the others (never used them before). Could you please take a look ? I'm using the latest Vanilla BETA plus full HIP.



Cheers.

 

[Erilaz]

Hey buddy. I'm having a few crashes lately. Admittedly I'm using many mods, but I always make sure they're compatible with each other and lately I have only added the Call to arms and Latin and Greek Religious Titles HIP on top of the others (never used them before). Could you please take a look ? I'm using the latest Vanilla BETA plus full HIP.

Cheers.

Uhh... I do see a couple of those error messages related to typos and the like (corrected a few already), but I don't think they would cause crashes at all. Call to Arms may cause additional strain on your system due to the amount of simultaneous troops being raised, etc. but it shouldn't be an issue if you have a decent system.

 

[G.Strategos]

Thanks for the quick reply buddy. Well, I have forgotten another submod which I added recently (Clouds of war) and I think that's the culprit. As for the possible strain don't worry about that I'm sure I could handle it (8700K clocked,1080ti). Btw I'm really enjoying Call to arms, I haven't played much but I like it from a first look.

 

[G.Strategos]

Ok crashes continues even after the removal of Clouds of War. My next guess is Nicknames and more Cultural names, according to the error log, but could such mods cause crashes ? Will it be safe to remove Call to arms during an ongoing campaign to test the culprit ?

 

[Erilaz]

Ok crashes continues even after the removal of Clouds of War. My next guess is Nicknames and more Cultural names, according to the error log, but could such mods cause crashes ? Will it be safe to remove Call to arms during an ongoing campaign to test the culprit ?

I'm not sure. I think it should be possible.

I've been playing with the current version of Call to Arms for a very long time though (it hasn't changed since Hydra6), so I don't think (nor hope) it causes any such issues.

I can't see how the new tweak (Latin and Greek etc.) could cause crashes; if it did, it would be in the load up phase (due to landed titles incompatibilities in that case), not during a game.

Never looked into nickname modding, so I don't know about that, and I'd say about the More Cultural names, it should be the same case as the above mentioned tweak, since it mostly fiddles with landed titles.

Have you tried running without the beta? Who knows, perhaps they added something to it...

 

[G.Strategos]

Yeah, I was thinking that Beta could be an issues but most of the time betas aren't. I will investigate more. Another thing I just saw. When a Pagan Priest converts to Christianity, he keeps the old title. For example Shaman etc using the latest Latin and Greek Religious Titles tweak.

 

[Erilaz]

Yeah, I was thinking that Beta could be an issues but most of the time betas aren't. I will investigate more. Another thing I just saw. When a Pagan Priest converts to Christianity, he keeps the old title. For example Shaman etc using the latest Latin and Greek Religious Titles tweak.

That is a general issue for titles. You'll see for example, when an Anglo-Saxon character becomes the liege of someone that formerly had a Norse liege, the vassal still uses "Jarl" rather than "Ealdorman"; the used title will only change upon loading a save game or succession, i.e. the death of the vassal. I can see how that is extra vexing in the case you mentioned, but I don't think anything can be done about it. He uses the "Shaman" title, but if you actually hover over his portrait you'll see what the real title 'should' be.