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Hard to believe it. What overall population was in Moscow in that period?
It reminded me fables of some historians who says that from 40k to 100k of population was killed in Novgorod during reign of Ivan IV.
But in Novgorod lived a total of 40k people at the time.
Well, there is huge history, cause Boris Godunov was giving money to poor people, so they came to get cash from other parts. Population of Moscow was ~200000. So, 1/3 of people who lived in Moscow died, add those who came and died = 127k.
This is a very strange occupation - to find out who is more suffered: Russia in the Time of Troubles or Poland during the Deluge, don't you think? I think need to judge by results. Russia recovered and improved, and Poland continued to stagnate.
People love to point out, that Poland was too weak to fight Russia. And they tend to forget, that Russia was in the same (maybe even worse) spot during Time of Troubles and Treaty of Deulino.
Well, there is huge history, cause Boris Godunov was giving money to poor people, so they came to get cash from other parts. Population of Moscow was ~200000. So, 1/3 of people who lived in Moscow died, add those who came and died = 127k.
Famine was severe, it is undeniable.
Speaking about the population of Moscow, I heard that even in later times a city with a population of 100k people were rare in Europe. Here it is stated that in the year 1600 in Moscow were 100k people. It is more plausible.
But source indicated that by 1638, population rose to 200k, that looks suspicious.
People love to point out, that Poland was too weak to fight Russia. And they tend to forget, that Russia was in the same (maybe even worse) spot during Time of Troubles and Treaty of Deulino.
So, yeah, again, long time no see. I wanted to notice that atm i'm working on rework of Russian Region (and parts of it that are in Ural Region for some reason). Why this? Well, there is no some important cities like Uglich (which was wealthier than Yaroslavl), Pereyaslavl, Dmitrov, Youriev-Polskiy and so on. There is problems with shapes of provinces (this is not the most important problem thou). Development distribution, because, as we know about tribute, we see huge difference between cities: Uglich should have paid 105 rubles, Yaroslavl should have paid 76 rubles, Nizhniy Novgorod should have paid 1500 rubles (also, it was one of the biggest cities in Russian lands, so giving it 11 development is...strange). Changes of Trade Goods will also come, cause why Nizhniy Novgorod has iron while it was known for its copper industry is a mystery for me.
So, i wanted to ask if someone could offer me reliable sources which i can use. Especially sources on goods and production.
So, yeah, again, long time no see. I wanted to notice that atm i'm working on rework of Russian Region (and parts of it that are in Ural Region for some reason). Why this? Well, there is no some important cities like Uglich (which was wealthier than Yaroslavl), Pereyaslavl, Dmitrov, Youriev-Polskiy and so on. There is problems with shapes of provinces (this is not the most important problem thou). Development distribution, because, as we know about tribute, we see huge difference between cities: Uglich should have paid 105 rubles, Yaroslavl should have paid 76 rubles, Nizhniy Novgorod should have paid 1500 rubles (also, it was one of the biggest cities in Russian lands, so giving it 11 development is...strange). Changes of Trade Goods will also come, cause why Nizhniy Novgorod has iron while it was known for its copper industry is a mystery for me.
So, i wanted to ask if someone could offer me reliable sources which i can use. Especially sources on goods and production.
In the past I made suggestion about new possible cities in the Russian region. When I saw how they added Luki and Rostov, I regretted even did that suggestion.
With that "institutions" a country that consist of small number of highly developed provinces are more beneficial. That system make addition of provinces in region pointless. And undesirable. Emrace of institutions for Russia already too expensive and a new provinces will only make it worse.
In the past I made suggestion about new possible cities in the Russian region. When I saw how they added Luki and Rostov, I regretted even did that suggestion.
With that "institutions" a country that consist of small number of highly developed provinces are more beneficial. That system make addition of provinces in region pointless. And undesirable. Emrace of institutions for Russia already too expensive and a new provinces will only make it worse.
You are totally right. But, as i see it, some of the pretty big cities aren't represented, some have too low development for their population and wealth, some of the provinces has strange shapes. Adding 4-5 provinces and reshaping some others won't be that bad. The biggest issue i see atm - development distribution. I don't think that development will be made higher, but i hope so.
Luki and Rostov are really strangely implemented, but, at last, we have another route to Novgorod and fortress to defend from PLC.
So, yeah, again, long time no see. I wanted to notice that atm i'm working on rework of Russian Region (and parts of it that are in Ural Region for some reason). Why this? Well, there is no some important cities like Uglich (which was wealthier than Yaroslavl), Pereyaslavl, Dmitrov, Youriev-Polskiy and so on. There is problems with shapes of provinces (this is not the most important problem thou). Development distribution, because, as we know about tribute, we see huge difference between cities: Uglich should have paid 105 rubles, Yaroslavl should have paid 76 rubles, Nizhniy Novgorod should have paid 1500 rubles (also, it was one of the biggest cities in Russian lands, so giving it 11 development is...strange). Changes of Trade Goods will also come, cause why Nizhniy Novgorod has iron while it was known for its copper industry is a mystery for me.
So, i wanted to ask if someone could offer me reliable sources which i can use. Especially sources on goods and production.
I will. But, first, i won't write it without good enough evidence. And, second, sources are too scarce and finding them, sometimes, is pain. I can't take one source as the only true. And finding more on some cities is hard. A lot of information is in different sources, so it becomes a huge game of finding a source to compare to another source. Sometimes i got lucky and find reference to another reliable work or to archaeological evidence. But it is too rare and, often, sources contradict each other.
Vain hope. When Luki and Rostov was introduced in the game total development of the Russian region was decreased by 2 points.
They decreased the development when added new provinces, Karl!
Vain hope. When Luki and Rostov was introduced in the game total development of the Russian region was decreased by 2 points.
They decreased the development when added new provinces, Karl!
Yeah. Development should be raised at least by 10-15 points. Nizhniy Novgorod should be practically same as Vladimir. Yaroslavl should be split and Uglich added, while Yaroslavl should became a little bit poorer and Uglich has dev as Yaroslavl now. It will be good to add Starodub. Giving Ustyug more development - same as Vologda...Well, i think nothing will be implemented Still - i should try.
Yay! I practically ended work on this part, so i can try to write what i have. But first things first - my sources. As sources i used Fyodor Godunov's Map (end of 15th century), List of far and close Rus cities (15th century), Book of Big Drawing (supplement to map that was ordered by Ivan IV), Cities of North-East Russia 14-15th centuries (A.M. Sakharov, 1959), From land to Great Duchies: patrimonies of russian princes 13-15 century (A.A. Gorskiy, 2010), Life of Great People: Ivan III (N.S. Borisov, 2000), Greatrussian plowman and
characteristics of russian historical process (L.V. Milov, 1998).
Also were used: Of the Russe Common Wealth. Or Maner of gouernement of the Russe emperour, (commonly called the Emperour of Moskouia) with the manners, and fashions of the people of that countrey London (1591, Giles Fletcher); Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii (1549, Siegmund Freiherr von Herberstein); Viaggio de misier Ambrogio С., ambassador al gran-signore Ussum-Cassan, re di Persia (1487, Ambgrogio Contarini).
One of the reasons for all those provinces is that they were:
1) centers of power in nearby territory;
2) had enough stone building to be counted as rich and important;
3) were important to some degree for history;
So, here is the list of provinces which i see as important for map and Muscovite state:
Dmitrov - important trade hub (through Jahroma and Sestra you could reach Volga and after that - Caspian Sea) with pretty big population of merchants (10-15% of total, while in mot cities it was 1-3%). Population was also pretty big, cause people flee to this city from threatened (by nomads) areas. Grand Duke, Metropolitan Bishop and Trinity Lavra of st. Sergius owned land there. This city was often given as fief to second sons of Grand Dukes of Muscovy.
Development: 3-3-1 or, maybe, 4-4-2.
Trade good: Grain.
Pereyaslavl-Zalesskiy (Pereyaslavl-Behind-Forest) - this one should be farmlands, cause this city stood on most fertile lands of Grande Duchy of Muscovy in 1444. It was one of the most populated regions of North-East Russia in 15th century. It was developed and fortified city, so, often, it was used not only to buy someones loyalty (and, well, it happened pretty often), but to use as safe-haven.
Development: 4-4-2.
Trade good: Grain or Salt.
Yuriev-Polskiy (Yuriev-on-Plain) - stood in fertile lands and was known for its production of grain. Grand Dukes of Moscow tried to consolidate this rich territory for themselves, so it lost status of Specific Principality pretty early and was ruled by viceroys from Moscow. There were also huge amount of salt from springs.
Development: 2-4-1.
Trade good: Grain.
This image is too see how it will change borders: Blue is Dmitrov. Red is Pereyaslavl-Zalesskiy Green is Yuriev-Polskiy
Suzdal and Vladimir should go from 6-6-5 to 5-5-4, cause Moscow was developing much faster than both of them. Even while Herberstain claims, that Vladimir is "as big as Moscow" this is looks more like exaggeration.
Yaroslavl should get lower development - 3-3-2. Yes, it was city with rich history, but even Uglich in 1444 was bigger.
Nizhny Novgorod goes way up to 6-6-5 - it was richest, biggest and most important city on Volga river. It was rich enough to start construction of stone fortifications in 14th century (only Moscow Dukes had that much money to build stone fortress).
Kostroma is pretty small for its size during this time: even in 1413 it was big and rich, so it was able to rise more than 5k militia against Novgorodian raid, so it can be rose to 4-4-3.
Not sure if this is a problem, but development will rise by 22.
Also. there is a lot of problems with positions of cities...
Rostov, Vladimir and Suzdal (it it will be added - Yuriev-Polskiy and Pereyaslavl-Zalesskiy also) should be farmlands or plains. There are fertile lands, which were colonized by slavs first in North-East Rus. There were practically no forests and a lot of meadows.
In Vladimir people were able to reach crop yield of 1:20 and 1:30 in the end of 15th century.
Another part is discussion of trade goods. One will touch salt, as a lot of sources show us, that there were a lot of salt in Russian land. A lot of monasteries had document that they can mine 65-115 tons of salt before it will be taxed. Number of such places were great. I could find information about 15 monasteries which had right to extract salt without tax till 65 tons and 5 till 115 tons, but this is not counting lesser productions and belongings to other representatives of different estates (merchants and nobles).
I would suggest changing production in Rostov from Grain to Salt, because city was known for its salt "Sol' Rostovskaya" ("Rostovian Salt") is often met in documents and trade deals. And, maybe, rise development to 4-4-2.
Pereyaslavl-Zalesskiy, Yuriev-Polskiy and Kostroma had rich surplus of salt because of the "Great Salt" ("Sol' Velikaya") - enormous number of salt springs.
Added:
Also, i was thinking about adding Uglich (orange, grain) and Starodub (purple, grain). But one, maybe, will be too small and another was destroyed in 1609... Starodub would be 2-1-2 or 1-1-1 plains/forest (yeah) and Uglich 4-3-2 plains/forest. So it could create better States - huge state with Moscow, Vladimir, Tver and others make no sense. Making states from Moskva+Dmitrov+Tver+Pereyaslavl, Rostov+Uglich+Yaroslavl+Kostroma and Vladimir+Suzdal+Starodub(not really important)+Yuriev+Murom is better in historical and logical perspective.
Again, splitting Smolensk into Smolensk and Vyazma (grey) can also be good.
Blue is Dmitrov 3-3-2, forest, grain. Red is Pereyaslavl-Zalesskiy 4-4-2, farmlands/grasslands , grains/salt. Green is Yuriev-Polskiy 2-4-1, farmlands/grasslands , grain/salt. Orange is Uglich 4-3-2, grasslands, grain. Purple is Starodub, 1-1-1/2-1-2, forest, grain. Grey is Vyazma, 3-3-2, forest, cloth. Yellow is Kashin, 4-3-3, plain, dyes. Black is Staritsa, 3-2-3, forest, grain.
White is accurate position of Tula. Deep Purple is Serpukhov, 2-2-3, forest, grain. Light Blue is Kolomna 3-3-1, plain, grain.
New
Another small update:
Muscovy should have iron as trade good.
Reasoning:
1) Muscovy was biggest producer of weapons in Russia until 17th century (and even later it was still pretty important);
2) Barberini, in his work, mentions city of Cossira (Кашира, Kashira) in his letter to his father, and says, that there is "huge iron and steel mines" (it can be reasoned that this place belongs to Tula and Ryazan, but in 1483 it became part of Muscovy, and was controlled by Muscovy earlier);
3) it was among Russian centers of blacksmith (list is pretty small: Moscow, Ustujna-Zheleznoploska, Veliky Ustyug, Tula, Yaroslavl, Nizhny Novgorod);
Interesting fact: Ustujna-Zheleznoploska in 16th century had two times higher number of smiths than Tula. We are talking about "independent" smiths, not about state smiths.
So, Tula stands where Don starts. This is not true. It shoould be closer to Kaluga.
Kaluga, Kolomna and Serpukhov were part of one line protecting Moscow from raids of tatars. Kolomna also was pretty loved by Dukes and Tsars.
Yap, a lot of provinces. But, at least, you will be able to choose
Some provinces are too big without reason :3 i would even split Smolensk and do other heretical stuff about too big provinces (except North ones).
Also, borders aren't exact cause i'm still trying to find sources on uyezds or, at least, volosts. But it is so hard...And trying to take all distances from "Book of Great Drawing" and recreating map using them requires too much time
Also, i was thinking about adding Uglich (orange, grain) and Starodub (purple, grain). But one, maybe, will be too small and another was destroyed in 1609... Starodub would be 2-1-2 plains/forest (yeah) and Uglich 4-3-2 plains/forest.
Again, splitting Smolensk into Smolensk and Vyazma (grey) can also be good.
Second post will be smaller and will be about Heresy of Judaizers.
So, what this all about? In 1487 Judaizers heresy appeared and in 1490 ecumenical council was called to decide what to do with heretics. But only Novgorodian part of heretics was punished. Moscow part of them gained even more power through daughter-in-law of Grand Kniaz Ivan III. So, yeah, this events really polarized society in Moscow.
De facto, two political parties appeared: one grouped around Elena Stefanovna (widow of eldest son of Ivan III), another grouped around Sophia Palaiologina (second wife of Ivan III). Also, they represented different ties with other countries: while Elena's group was for contacts with Central Europe and Crimea, Sophia's group was for contacts with Germany and Lithuania. First party is for strong power of Grand Kniaz, second is for boyar's liberties. This confrontation also affected church landowning, cause heretics were against it (and were supported by monks of North monasteries) and they wanted to lessen influence of church on state.
And, typical thing, most of those heretics were educated people, so, when some of their opponents tried to use information against them, they weren't able to find some books to bake their claims DD So, yeah, traditionalists started to improve in this field and, at some point, one of their representative and the one who discovered it, metropolitan bishop of Novgorod Gennady, receives information about spanish inquisition...
In 1498, son of Elena (the one that was heretic) Dmitriy became co-governor with his granddad, while future Vasiliy III with his mother Sophia fall under disgrace. But, in a year, Ivan's attitude turn around and now Vasiliy became his co-governor and Dmitriy fall under disgrace. In 1502 Elena and Dmitriy were imprisoned.
And then ecumenical council of 1503 came. Not long before this council the fate of heretics was discussed and Ivan III asked if it is good to execute them. Joseph said, that it is not a sin, but duty of Kniaz to pursue heretics. Ivan wasn't happy about all this stuff so, when council started, he decided to step back and give his heir an opportunity to deal with it. And council decided to burn most important heretics. But they were burned in wooden houses, so no one will see their agony.
It caused backlash from Russian society, cause this contradicted gospel, other holy texts and canon norms. It also brought up split in Russian church.
So, how should it be implemented in-game?
There is two different options. First, implement this into orthodox somehow. Second, through events.
I will discuss second option:
It all starts when Grand Duchy of Muscovy controls all Novgorodian land. The heresy appears and you get information about it:
1) you can support metropolitan bishop of Novgorod and agree with exile of Zacharia (you will get skill 2 inquisitor with 50% discount);
2) you can "forgive" him and release him from all charges (you will get skill 2 theologian with 50% discount).
First choice will later lead to rebellion, second will bring historical events.
If you choose to release him then next event will be about council of 1490. You will have choice:
1) to agree with it and get some Patriarch Authority, -10% discount to stability cost for 10 years, 10% clergy loyalty and 5% clergy influence.
2) you decide to confront them, then you will lose church loyalty, will get +5 revolt risk in Novgorod (fanatic rebels), but both Muscovy and Novgorod will get modifier "Free thinkers tolerated" with small bonus of 10% to institution spread and -5% development cost (reasons like behind Renaissance, but modifiers aren't final)
3) if your ruler has tolerant personality, he will be able to choose special decision, where he gets "Free thinkers" as ruler modifier with 10% discount to institution embrace.
4) If ruler is zealous, he will get cash with other bonuses from first choice.
Next event will focus around support of heretics and traditionalists. Your wife and direct heir will support traditionalists. And your daughter-in-law (and her son, but he will be young) will support heretics.
You will have to choose between staying with your wife in this matter or daughter-in-law:
1) is wife, this option will give you +1 totf and -1 RR for 10 years;
2) is daughter-in-law, this option will give -5% tech cost discount for 10 years and you will get 4-4-3 15yo heir which will have trait "scholar";
Next step is: Council of 1504. Here you will decide fate of heretics...
But i will write it later and add some other events to spice things up.
I hope not (｡•́︿•̀｡) There is much more to do:
0) rework of Orthodox - atm it feels (at least for me) strange and not interesting;
1) more important events from Russian history;
2) some rework of Trade Goods maybe required;
3) more digging into sources and translation of them to prove my claims (most sources i use are either not translated or i hadn't found them in english language);
4) rework of ideas (i really-really hope for that);
And giving only half-backed product is...bad. And this is all hard work, cause there is no maps of divisions of state. Like, yeah, there are some information about volosts, uyezds and stuff, but there is no good resource of their exact division (｡•́︿•̀｡)
I still think that spliting of the provinces is a bad idea. Especially, the addition of such provinces, as Starodub (1-1-1/2-1-2 ?). (Actually Starodub was a center of local principality so its development can't be that's low.)
The better way is addition of provinces to Russian minors like Ryazan and Tver. It will be indirect buff for Moscow.
There was a important cities like Kashin (Tver) and Pronsk (Ryazan).
But instead the PDX chose to give more development to Moscow and cut development of minors: Tver (16 -> 13), Yaroslavl (14 -> 12).
And giving only half-backed product is...bad. And this is all hard work, cause there is no maps of divisions of state. Like, yeah, there are some information about volosts, uyezds and stuff, but there is no good resource of their exact division (｡•́︿•̀｡)
I still think that spliting of the provinces is a bad idea. Especially, the addition of such provinces, as Starodub (1-1-1/2-1-2 ?). (Actually Starodub was a center of local principality so its development can't be that's low.)
It is stated that "Starodub was a center of principality, that belonged to poor nobles". No documents, no information about market (all important enough cities in Russia had it).
No Uglich, which was richer than Yaroslavl, so it was 100% richer than Starodub.
No Pereyaslavl-Zaleskiy, which had one of the most populated ares and played its role in history of Russia.
No Yuriev-Polskiy, which was important as grain producing fertile plain and was pretty rich because of this.
Kashin is ok, cause it was pretty big and was important trade hub.
Same for Pronsk, but there is problem - it was know for pretty rich fertile land and sold a lot of grain to Ryazan and to Valdimir-Suzda, but, at the same time, it was know for its bog iron.
Totma was important salt producing city. So, giving even more salt to the Muscovy can make it Da9l's favorite country. Not sure that we need another one xD
Vyazma should appear.
It is stated that "Starodub was a center of principality, that belonged to poor nobles". No documents, no information about market (all important enough cities in Russia had it).
Also, i was thinking about adding Uglich (orange, grain) and Starodub (purple, grain). But one, maybe, will be too small and another was destroyed in 1609
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