Sacra Corona; Provinces of the Hungarian Crownlands and Siebenbürgen

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Mingmung

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Aug 23, 2014
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Hello there!

It's been a while, but I'm once again posting a suggestion for Europe. This time Hungary has come to my attention.

The beginning of the EU4 timeline can be seen as the rise (and subsequent fall) of the great Kingdom of Hungary; It had a sizable population, wealth, a professional standing army and competent leadership. All in all quite the powerhouse matching the rising power of the Habsburgs and the Ottomans. EU4 has had a Hungarian update somewhere around 2017, but that one still has many flaws compared to the newly updated regions:
- Province/county- and city-shuffling; Wrong capitals assigned to provinces.
- Huge, blocky provinces.
- Lacking strategic and historical depth.
- A kind of anachronistic 'Eastbloc' feel to it; Less developed than in reality.
- A lot of wrong/misplaced dynamic province-names.

So, the challenge for me was to solve those problems as best as I could, as well as the following aspects:
- Highlighting the importance of the more highly populated regions of the Hungarian plains.
- Adding historically important towns and counties to the Transylvanian regions and looking at its borders.
- Adding to the economically important mining towns of Slovakia.
- Keeping the borders dynamic enough to make them roughly fit a historical partition between Austria, the Ottomans and Transylvania (or other hypothetical powers).
- Choosing the best and most fitting counties, as not every one of them fits, obviously.
- The Danube and other Balkan Rivers are slightly off, this makes it difficult to pinpoint provinces/cities exactly. It's probably because of map-projection. Other parts of Eastern Europe suffer from the same issue.

A suggestion which comes very close to my own vision is the one made by @Entrone (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/hungary-update.1191609/. My work can be seen as somewhat of a slight revision of his (and other people's) work.

Update to Hungary and Transylvania:
Hungary Update.png

List of provinces (and capitals):
1: Pozsony: Pozsony, took a bit from Wien. The city (and county) of Pressburg obviously + the upper bits of Nyitra. Its Slovakian dynamic name (Nitra) should go to Nyitra.

2: Nyitra: Nyitra. a new province born from the combination of the Nyitra and Bars counties. Nyitra being the more important one.
3: Trencsén: Trencsén, some slight edits in size and city-placement. It's a combination of the Trencsén, Árva, Turoc and Liptó counties.
4: Zólyom: Besztercebánya, a new province, a big combination of the county (and EU4-province) of Hont, as well as Nógrád, Zólyom, Gömör and Kishont. The location of many important mining towns, Besztercebánya was the region's most important and wealthy city. Even though Zvolen Castle was the county-seat for a while, cities>castles. Hont was 'just' a castle as well, so it doesn't exist on this setup anymore, now split between Zólyom and Nyitra.
5: Szepes: Lőcse, the old Szepes province, but trimmed a bit. Also with a new and fitting capital city instead of the castle of Spis. It's the combination of the counties of Szepes and Sáros.
6: Kassa: Kassa. Zemplén and Abaúj combined. I'm a bit reluctant to name the province Abaúj, as most of it is made of Zemplén's territory. Kassa was also important enough to warrant its own name on the map. So, first one that isn't named after a county.
7: Bereg: Beregszász, a new province. A combination of the Bereg and Ung counties, with Bereg's county-seat as capital.
8: Sopron: Sopron, slightly changed its borders and split it in two to make way for the next province. Numerous villages and towns around Sopron quickly came under Habsburg control after 1444, hence its borders.
9: Vas: Szombathely, a new province born from the split of Sopron. An old Roman town situated in the county of Vas, quite sizable.
10: Esztergom: Esztergom, the prominent archbishopric of the same name was seated here. A combination of the Györ, Komárom and Esztergom counties.
11: Fejér: Fehérvár, slightly changed its borders to make it more accurate and room for Esztergom. A combination of the Veszprém and Fejér counties.
12: Somogy: Kaposvár, only slightly changed its borders (to the south as well). A combination of the counties of Somogy, Tolna and bits of Baranya.
13: Pest: Buda, the capital, greatly reduced its size to make it slightly harder to reach and to make room for new provinces. It's now a bit more historically sized; A combination of the county of Pest, small bits of Fejér and Pilis.
14: Szolnok: Szolnok, central Hungary is a mix of different small and/or elongated counties, so this one had to be centered around the most important town in the vicinity; Szolnok. Which already existed in EU4, but was quite misplaced, to put it mildly. The province is a combination of the semi-autonomous Kunság region, as well as Szolnok itself and parts of Csongrád and the old province of Békés (which has gone the way of the dodo, together with its capital of Gyula).
15: Heves: Eger, already was in EU4 (kind of), as the Ottoman name for the Szolnok-province (which is obviously incorrect). Renowned for its defiance against the Turks, this city (and county) are now on the map. The province is a combination of the Heves and Borsod counties.
16: Szeged: Szeged, a new province centered around the important city of Szeged. Although it's the county-seat of Csongrád, this county is too elongated to fit one province. That's why parts of it lay in the Szolnok-province and why it has Szeged as its name, instead of Csongrád. Most of its territory is part of the Csanád county, and bits of Békés. Both were too minor to add on their own.
17: Bács: Bács, its city has been placed on the correct spot and its borders trimmed to make way for Szeged. It covers the Bács and Bodrog counties, as well as a small bit of Csongrád.
18: Debrecen: Debrecen, the old Szabolcs province (which had Debrecen as capital). The capital of the Szabolcs-county was still as big as a village and not noteworty enough until the 18th century, Debrecen was actually a part of the Bihar-county. That's why I renamed this province to Debrecen. So, a mix of the Szabolcs-county as well as a small part of Bihar which contains Debrecen.
19: Szatmár: Szatmárnémeti, a new province covering the Szatmár-county and small bits of Közep-Szolnok.
20: Bihar: Nagyvárad, Oradea has been renamed to Nagyvárad (the Hungarian name for the same city). Its shape has been altered a bit, as it has lost Debrecen and gained parts of the little counties of Kraszna and Kozép-Szolnok (which has been split between Bihar and Szatmár).
21: Arad: Arad, a new province made from the combination of the counties of Arad and Zaránd.
22: Temes: Temesvár, changed its borders a bit, as well as the location of the town of Temesvár. Its a combination of the counties of Temes and Krassó.
23: Torontál: Nagybecskerek, cut its borders a bit to make it more historical. It's a combination of the counties of Keve and Torontál.
24: Szerém: Mitrovica slightly changed the placement of the city, nothing major.
25: Nándorfehérvár: Nándorfehérvár, kept it as it is.
26: Hunyad: Vajdahunyad, it now has the correct capital, instead of the city of Alba Iulia (Gyulafehérvár). Vajdahunyad also held the seat of the Hunyadi family, a beautiful castle. Changed its borders a bit, as well.
27: Fehér: Gyulafehérvár, finally a province on its own; the capital of the Principality of Transylvania, Alba Iulia (in Romanian) or Weissenburg (in German).
28: Szeben: Nagyszeben, the old province of Királyföld has been split in two to make way for two of the more famous Saxon cities of Transylvania; Sibiu (Szeben), which was the capital of the old Kiralýföld province, and Brasov (Brassó). Has parts of the Fogaras county.
29: Brassó: Brassó, a new province split from Királyföld. Has parts of the Fogaras county.
30: Székelyföld: Marosvásárhely, Targu Mures has been renamed to its Hungarian version (Marosvásárhely) and the province renamed to the historical region of the Székely people: the Székelyföld, as Maros was only a small bit of this province.
31: Kolozs: Kolozsvár, Cluj (Romanian) or Klausenburg (German) is now finally on the map; the old province of Torda was less important and is now fused in it, as well. It obviously has salt as tradegood, because of the Torda mines.
32: Beszterce: Beszterce, another new province. A Saxon town and important marketplace in the region. It has routes into the Carpathian mountains, hence the new mountainpass.
33: Máramaros: Máramarossziget, slightly changed its borders and has gotten a new capital city, which was the actual seat of the historical county during this period of time.

Sources for maps:
- https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...mortgages_between_15th_and_17th_centuries.jpg
- https://i.redd.it/6u11geevac341.png
- https://slideplayer.hu/slide/2622666/9/images/41/Nemesi+vármegyerendszer.jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Transylvanian_Principality.svg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Siebenbürgen_1300-1867.jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Siebenbürgen_1300-1867.jpg


Tradegoods:
Hungary Update - Tradegoods.png

Upper Hungary (Slovakia):
- Three mining regions, because this region was known for its mining towns. Most of them were even part of the Fugger family business; The silver mines of Banska Stiavnica (gold tradegood for the Nyitra-province), the various mining towns (like Banska Bystrica) located in the new Zólyom-province (copper was the main tradegood) and finally the coppermines of Spisska Nova Ves in the Szepes-province. I couldn't find a good reason to keep the iron tradegood in the Trencsin-province. Mining efforts in the Tatra mountains usually resulted in failure.
- More mountainous regions with pastural grounds, like Bereg and Trencsin, have received the wool-tradegood, while the flatter parts (Kassa and Pozsony) have received the grain tradegood.

Hungary (Alföld and Transdanubia):
- An extra wine-region has been added, the basegame only had 1.
- The most dominant tradegood should be cattle, as this was the main export of the Hungarian kingdom, especially for the Alföld region.
- Other parts, like the fertile Banat-plains and other flatlands, have received the grain-tradegood. Slightly less numerous than the cattle-tradegood.
- More rugged parts have once again been given the wool-tradegood.
- Belgrade keeps its textile-tradegood.

Transylvania:
- SALT. Salt. Very important; 3 Saltmines, to be exact. The most famous one, the Torda salt mine, is now located in the Cluj province (Kolozsvár). The Praid salt mine (saw the most use in the 18th century) to the east of Targu Mures (Marosvásárhely) and finally the Solotyvno saltmine just to the north of Máramarossziget.
- The important Saxon cities have been given textile-tradegoods, as their guilds produced and traded in fabrics. Brassó has been given the wool-tradegood, as three cloth-producing provinces next to each other would've been a bit too much. Wool also represents the pastoralists living in the mountains.
- Hunyad had iron mines and thus retains its iron tradegood.
- Transylvania misses an agricultural tradegood, hence why one of its wineregions was incorporated (used since the first Saxons settled here) in the new Beszterce province.
Areas:
Hungary Update - Areas.png

Light green: Upper Hungary
Light orange: Subcarpathia
Dark orange: Transdanubia
Light blue: Northern Alföld
Dark blue: Southern Alföld
Green: Partium/Részek
Turquoise: Northern Transylvania
Blue-grey: Southern Transylvania
Dynamic province-names: Soon




The old work-in-progress version painted on the EU4-map:
Hungary Update (with borders).png

This one might be more clear on where the borders are on the EU4 map, keep in mind though that some changed have been made.
 
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Tradegoods, dynamic province-names and areas coming soon.
 
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Looking very solid,

any idea how many provinces extra this is?

I feel Transdanubia is still a little low on provinces

And maybe split province #4

Maybe Hont-Nograd and Gomor

I would also stick with county names for provinces given that they represent more diversity than just city names, PDX mostly picks city names when there is no regional name and they still wanna split up a province.


this thread had a similar aim to talk about hungary.
 
For me personally amount of provinces is not very important, it's rather the reason for a province and I rather see very fractured places like germany, india and italy extra provinces to better represent how fractured those lands were, that's why I don't care much for fairly homogenous blobs like england, spain, portugal or large parts of Ming. Countries with stable external borders and relatively small internal differences are not as important to add provinces to IMO

IMO hungary after the croatia update falls kind of between those categories, While hungary had a lot of civil wars and internal division because of that, and EUIV is not good at representing civil wars or internal divisions like the ones that befell hungary. I did make a suggestion a while ago on how to better represent the first 14 years of hungarian history in the timeline which did rely heavily on events and would to some people be too much railroading.

My suggestion, where I'm more interested in the history of transylvania did try to make a moderate approach by not adding new areas. When making my suggestions in the past (of which very little have had any succesful change inside the game, I can maybe point to 3-5 map changes which I can for certainty claim to be a result of my suggestions) I found it still helpful to start by setting ground rules like how many provinces/areas before I start planning the actual provinces. So in my look at hungary I said no new area which would mean 4 new provinces and I think that would be enough to get a hungary which feels fresher and more historical without just splitting provinces all over the place for the fun of having provinces.
 
Upper Hungary (Slovakia):
- Three mining regions, because this region was known for its mining towns. Most of them were even part of the Fugger family business; The silver mines of Banska Stiavnica (gold tradegood for the Nyitra-province), the various mining towns (like Banska Bystrica) located in the new Zólyom-province (copper was the main tradegood) and finally the coppermines of Spisska Nova Ves in the Szepes-province. I couldn't find a good reason to keep the iron tradegood in the Trencsin-province. Mining efforts in the Tatra mountains usually resulted in failure.
- More mountainous regions with pastural grounds, like Bereg and Trencsin, have received the wool-tradegood, while the flatter parts (Kassa and Pozsony) have received the grain tradegood.

Hungary (Alföld and Transdanubia):
- Some wine-regions have been added, the basegame only had 1.
- The most dominant tradegood should be cattle, as this was the main export of the Hungarian kingdom. 8 Provinces should suffice.
- Other parts, like the fertile Banat-plains and other flatlands, have received the grain-tradegood. Slightly less numerous than the cattle-tradegood.
- More rugged parts have once again been given the wool-tradegood.
- Belgrade keeps its textile-tradegood.

Transylvania:
- SALT. Salt. Very important; 3 Saltmines, to be exact. The most famous one, the Torda salt mine, is now located in the Cluj province (Kolozsvár). The Praid salt mine (saw the most use in the 18th century) to the east of Targu Mures (Marosvásárhely) and finally the Solotyvno saltmine just to the north of Máramarossziget.
- The important Saxon cities have been given textile-tradegoods, as their guilds produced and traded in fabrics. Brassó has been given the wool-tradegood, as three cloth-producing provinces next to each other would've been a bit too much. Wool also represents the pastoralists living in the mountains.
- Hunyad had iron mines and thus retains its iron tradegood.
- Transylvania misses an agricultural tradegood, hence why one of its wineregions was incorporated (used since the first Saxons settled here) in the new Beszterce province.

@Pbhuh Thanks for the feedback! Some points:
- This suggestion has 33 provinces, up from 23. A net increase of 10; 2 more in Upper Hungary, 3 more in Transylvania and 5 more in the rest of Hungary.
- I'm hesitant to add even more, as that would result in some micro-provinces. I slightly changed the size and shape of Zólyom to make it stand out a bit less. Some might think the provinces are too small, but I'd point them to less populated regions like Poland which have received substantial amounts of small provinces (the Kuyavia-region, for example). This setup isn't asking too much, considering the might of the Hungarian kingdom during the first quarter of EU4's timeframe.
- Most provinces have been named after their most important counties, the only exceptions are Szeged, Debrecen and Kassa. Debrecen's county is already another province (with another capital), Kassa's county (Abáuj) is a bit too minor compared to the city itself and Szeged is the capital of a very long and elongated county which doesn't make sense on a EU4-map (Csóngrad). If other provinces are named after cities, it's because the counties are as well. So, I think only Abáuj/Kassa is the debatable one, but I still think Kassa is too important.
 
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Regarding trade goods: perhaps it would be good to have a naval supplies province to represent timber logging, e.g. in Trencsén or in Transylvania, and a cloth moved to Esztergom to represent the rich trading cities there as well (or have more centers of trade perhaps?).

Still, overall, very nice work, and although I am a bit sad some counties didnt get proper county names, but city names, I would be very happy to see this work implemented in the game.
 
Regarding trade goods: perhaps it would be good to have a naval supplies province to represent timber logging, e.g. in Trencsén or in Transylvania, and a cloth moved to Esztergom to represent the rich trading cities there as well (or have more centers of trade perhaps?).

Still, overall, very nice work, and although I am a bit sad some counties didnt get proper county names, but city names, I would be very happy to see this work implemented in the game.
Naval tradegoods mainly represent the shipbuilding and -maintenance parts; timber for hulls, flax for sails, tar, etc. That's why it's prevalent in the Baltic and Northern America.

(I'm for example still bothered about Vlorë/Avlonya not receiving Naval Supplies, because it kept huge tar-supplies.)

I don't think lumberyards in deeply inland areas are used for navies. Cloth for either Esztergom or Pest would be a thing up for consideration.

What would you like to see regarding county-names?
 
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What would you like to see regarding county-names?
If possible, I would prefer county names like Zemplén over Kassa, Csongrád over Szeged, etc.

8: Sopron: Sopron, slightly changed its borders and split it in two to make way for the next province. Numerous villages and towns around Sopron quickly came under Habsburg control after 1444, hence its borders.

I am not sure mortgages would mean the borders should be changed, since the land de jure didnt cease to being part of Hungary, like the lands in Upper Hungary mortgaged to Poland shouldnt facilitate a border change there either.
 
Glad to see that the topic of Hungary reemerges from time to time, and thanks for the mentioning. :)

Countries with stable external borders and relatively small internal differences are not as important to add provinces to IMO

So in my look at hungary I said no new area

Well, the Kingdom of Hungary during the first half of EU4 was everything but a state with stable external borders or relatively small internal differences.

Also in games where the Ottomans defeat Hungary, they conquer provinces in a ridiculous manner, because Ottoman missions around hungary depend on the current, low quality areas.

I think at least 1 new area is necessary, since both the Alföld and Transylvania are overcrowded already and they are really far from being accurate. That one state, (a bit anachronic) Partium might solve a lot of issues in itself. Or, since it'd rather be a compromise, split both of the existing areas into southern and northern half.


If possible, I would prefer county names like Zemplén over Kassa, Csongrád over Szeged, etc.

While in some cases it's definately true, in others I find it shallow. Since these ideas originally came from me, I feel like I should elaborate it.

Logic would dictate to name every province after any kind of region, yet sometimes the most important city around (best examples exactly Kassa and Szeged) lies in a county that we wouldn't represent ingame for some reason (for example Csongrád back then being barely more than a thin line along the Tisza river). Or, in the case of Debrecen and Brassó, where the neighbouring 'big county' lacks a truly decent capital, that being actually outside of it.
Also an ideal Eu4 province often covers 2, 3 or even 4 small historic county, so sacrifices must be made anyways.

Therefore rather than having a province with a capital which has never even been part of it and missing some of the most important cities, I'd just group a few small counties together, and name it after the regional capital. Indeed it works only in cases where that capital really spikes out, like Szeged and Kassa did, being the largest cities in the high middle ages after Buda and Pest, and are probably the best applicants for lvl1 CoTs.


I am not sure mortgages would mean the borders should be changed, since the land de jure didnt cease to being part of Hungary, like the lands in Upper Hungary mortgaged to Poland shouldnt facilitate a border change there either.

Agreed, now that province looks so 20th century.
 
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Interesting read.

How do you feel about Croatia, since they are in PU?
 
If possible, I would prefer county names like Zemplén over Kassa, Csongrád over Szeged, etc.



I am not sure mortgages would mean the borders should be changed, since the land de jure didnt cease to being part of Hungary, like the lands in Upper Hungary mortgaged to Poland shouldnt facilitate a border change there either.
I guess you have a point regarding the mortgages; I've updated the first post with a fixed Sopron.

As @Entrone has explained; Csóngrad is too elongated to make sense as an EU4-province, Zemplén wasn't the county of Kassa (that was Abáuj), which is quite irrelevant compared to the city itself. So while I really get your point (we all like one form of consistency!), the reality is a bit more nuanced.

Anyway: Regarding areas, I've basically copied Entrone's work, as his suggestion and the ensuing discussion made it clear that this would be the best setup (north/south divides and Partium/Részek):
Hungary Update - Areas.png

Light green: Upper Hungary
Light orange: Subcarpathia
Dark orange: Transdanubia
Light blue: Northern Alföld
Dark blue: Southern Alföld
Green: Partium/Részek
Turquoise: Northern Transylvania
Blue-grey: Southern Transylvania

The historical correctness of areas has always been more up in the air for EU4-provinces. Which I don't mind, but this setup isn't actually that ahistorical. Only Partium is off by a century, but that's it.

Regarding cultures: I'm all for keeping the Transylvanian amalgamation culture.

@Xetfield I think the current setup with Croatia as a vassal/PU is very dumb. It was quite integrated. Anyway, my view on the Croatian provinces has been shared in one of my other suggestions (I guess the one in my signature, not sure). There was also one collaborative effort with some other users which looked at Croatia. This thread is mainly focused on Hungary proper and Transylvania.
 
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Poor Mingmung always with all these effortful and flavourful suggestions that will never come to anything.
 
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I've dived into Hungary's history of cattle a bit and it seems I have to tweak a few tradegoods to be less randomly placed;
- The areas around Szeged and Debrecen (with the Kunság towns and Kecskemét, among others) were major cattle-'production' areas. So, most of the Alföld region should really have cattle, except for the area around the Banat.
- Esztergom has a part of Rye Island (the part of the province gained with the fusion of the Komarom county), and thus should have the grain/wheat tradegood as this ground was very, very fertile.

9 Cattle provinces.
7 Grain provinces.
4 Wool provinces.
3 Wine provinces.
3 Salt provinces.
3 Cloth provinces.
2 Copper provinces.
1 Iron province.
1 Gold/silver province.

I think that represents the economic situation of the country quite well.

@Vaximillian Yeah, It's a shame really. Some parts of my earlier suggestions have clearly been copied by the devs (I look at you, Rumelia, Germany and bits of Poland *coughs in Naklo*), although, that's what I want to believe. The one for the HRE ('Kleinstaaterei') was a group-effort on Discord, with lots of back-and-forth discussions and map-staring. Only small bits of that one made the cut. I'm personally quite proud of my Tungning National Ideas; I hope they see the game sometime. Even the code is done for that one and it sees usage in a certain mod. The one I made together with Palando regarding the Austrian divide was quite extensive, as well. The Balkans and Hungary are my favorite regions, so this one had to be done. But seeing how I've covered most of Europe (except the British, Russian and Scandinavian regions), I think I'm done with the suggestions for a while. EU5 might come someday, I will keep a folder with a compilation of my suggestions ready for that time. And a healthy dose of scepticism.;)
 
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Actually I was considering some changes for a while regarding the areas, I was just not really satisfied with these. I've got an idea but it'd require the sacrifice of Bereg (nr 7) province, then the remaining two provinces could go to fullfill Partium. Much like this:
hungary_16_century.jpg



So this might be a less ambitious version, with the merged Partium:
98527327eb48697e1b409c98bce2de29d6ac35bd04d12ff6eb87e5a8e0cf98dd4e122150.jpg





A perfect setup will need one more further update, and might be something like what @BalticM posted on my suggestion back then, but it's very distant, if ever...
HN.png
 
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I would personally rename Partium to Crisana:


While mostly a romanian term, as far as I know, it refers to the rivers so its I think pretty reasonable.


Strictly saying Körösvidék (as known is hungarian) is much smaller than that area, basically only Békés and Bihar counties. Also very anachronistic, it's use probably rose after the game's scope. Alternatively might be Tiszántúl, (over the Tisza), which is much more widely used.
But no, Partium is actually good, it was used a lot in the high middle age/ early new age to refer to this part of the country.
 
Keep in mind that Latin was actually frequently used by the Hungarian nobility.

I agree, Partium is the lesser evil.
 
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Regarding the trade goods, a few notes:
-Maros/Székelyföld wasn't a saltmining region, move Salt to Fehér. Székelyföld has strong pastoralic roots, so it should either be Livestock or rather Wool.
-And Fehér's Cloth should move to Brassó/Fogaras. Brassó was the most westernlike city in the country, initially its population composed nearly completely of western europeans. Was also more important as a trade center than Kolozsvár, CoT should move there.
-Szerém (Syrmia) was an important wine growing region. Just like in any other fertile region, grain was also grown, but it's grape-culture is said to go back to Roman times, reinforced by French and Italian immigration in the middle ages.
-Change one of the Copper trade good provinces (preferably Zólyom) to Iron, or another Gold. Gold would be historical, Iron if we can't have another Gold for balance reasons. But both Upper Hungary and Transylvania was extremely rich in minerals, hard to choose.
-Somogy, Fejér and Zala-Vas are all eligible for Wine, but Fejér is also strongly assicoated with Grain.
-Beszterce should also have Iron or something else, but not Wine. Iron, instead of the historical Gold once again.
-Torontál and Arad should switch their respective Livestock and Grain.
 
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