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Entrone

First Lieutenant
Mar 27, 2016
276
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I had a slight little hope that Hungary will see some love in this European Update, but only the croatian part had been touched. Since, with the past patches every neighbour of Hungary have been updated (Poland, romanian duchies, and now Austria, Bohemia, and the south slavic region), and I was disappointed with the 'Hungarian Patch' from a few years ago, and @neondt recently said:
We feel that the Hungary patch left the Hungarian province setup in a good place in terms of performance and province density. We see no need to fix what isn't broken. Though we'll certainly be looking at other kinds of content for Hungary.
I just can't disagree more. So I created this thread.
How could a yaers old patch, which was mitigated to match all it's still pre-updated neighbours' strength, leave it in a good place in terms of performance and province density? The Kingdom of Hungary, with Croatia included had like 4 million inhabitants around the start of the game, when England, (with Wales and half Ireland), had like 2,75 million, yet has 31 provinces.
With the detachment of Croatia, Hungary will have 24 provinces, I'd like to see that around 30. We've got development to represent the advancement of regions, I feel like such a sharp difference in province density between Austria and Hungary is rather wrong for the time:

With the correct redrawing of the river Drava, it can clearly be seen how enormous Somogy and Sopron are. Not to mention whole Dunántúl/Transdanubia (west of the river Danube) is just 3 province. The richest and traditionally most popolous region of the country, bigger than Tuscany, yet just 3 provinces. Upper Hungary, later Slovakia, could also be broken up into 2 states, and Transylvania's borders are not even close to the historical ones, as Hunayad, Bihar and Maramaros were not part of it.

There's my version:

1. Overwiev

I don't think it would be too crowded, compared to the new Balkans and Austria.
Now Maros, Torda, Királyföld and Hunyad, with two new provinces, form Transylvania. It's already split in two: Upper (Torda, Maros, and the new Beszterce), and Lower (Hunyad, Királyföld, and the new Fehér).
Next I'd make Slovakia/Upper Hungary a five province state with the old Pozsony, Szepes, Trencsén and Hont, and with the new Zólyom. Zemplén and Máramaros, with Bereg "squeezed" between them form the new 'Kárpátalja/Zakarpattia' state. Dunántúl/Transdanubia needs a new province desperately, I choose Zala between Sopron and Somogy. The Alföld also got some love, Szatmár/Sathmar detached from the seriously oversized Bihar. The former is plains, the latter hills. Arad also got squeezed between Békés, Temes and Bihar. It was an important town and Temes (together with Torontál) now match the Banat of Temes.
Note, how besides splitting the huge wasteland of the Carpathian Range, I added a few more wastelands. First, the Tatra in Upper Hungary-Slovakia, and the Southern Carpathian Range north of Severin. These are definately worthy of being wastelands, with 2000 meters tall peaks.


2. The new provinces

Corrected capitals in grey, new provinces' capital in yellow:
(province-city-terrain: notes)
1. Zólyom - Zólyom - Mountains: The most important mining region of the country, rich in silver, gold, copper and iron aswell. There were important gold mines, I'd pick that, and move gold from Hont to this province.
2. Bereg - Beregszász - Hills: Culture could be Ruthenian also, but I think Maramaros is enough, leave it Hungarian.
3. Szatmár - Szatmárnémeti - Plains: There was an important salt mine, alternatives are livestock, wine and grain.
4. Beszterce - Beszterce - Mountains: Important ironworking town with German population and a new pass on the Carpatian Range: Borgói/Tihuta-pass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihuța_Pass
5. Fehér/Torda - Gyulafehérvár - Highlands: there were also salt mines, was capital of Transylvania. Existing Torda renamed to Kolozs.
6. Arad - Arad - plains: Heavily fought over during the Ottomand wars. Romanian or Hungarian culture.
7. Kunság - Szolnok - Plains: Lands of the Jassic and Cuman people, who migrated there fleeing the marauding mongols in the 13th century. Their integration was a slow process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunság
8. Zala - Zalaegerszeg - Woodland: Became part of Habsburg-controlled Upper Hungary, also important wine region.

I still left out a lot of possible nice provinces: Esztergom, the seat of the bishop, Kassa, the most important city in Upper Hungary after Pozsony, Baranya, the eastern half of current Somogy, with Pécs, where the first hungarian university was, or splitting Bács, so contemporary Serbian-Hungarian border can be achieved, etc.. So it's quite the conservative solution.

With red hexagon, correctly placed capitals, with green hexagon, corrected/new capitals.
(province-city-terrain: notes
9. Nyitra-Érsekújvár/Nyitra-farmlands: culture Hungarian or Slovakian
10. Pozsony-Pozsony-farmlands: the city had an overwhelmingly german population until the 18th century.
11. Trencsén-Trencsén-Hills: wrong side of the river
12. Szepes-Lőcse-Hills: Lot of germans lived there
13. Zemplén-Kassa-Hills: Culture Hungarian or Slovakian
14. Szabolcs-Debrecen-Plains: Debrecen was historically in the western tip of Bihar county, before it became the capital of the new Hajdu County in 1876.
15. Bihar-Nagyvárad-Hills: Culture probably Romanian
16. Kolozs-Kolozsvár-Highlands: Culture probably Hungarian. Current Center of Trade.
17. Máramaros-Máramarossziget-Mountains: Rahó is a less difficult capital candidate. Ruthenian
18. Maros-Marosvásárhely-Mountains: Culture Hungarian.
19. Királyföld-Brassó-Highlands: Culture (Transylvanian) Saxon. Potential Center of Trade.
20. Hunyad-Vajdahunyad-Hills: Culture Romanian or Hungarian.
21. Temes-Temesvár-Farmlands: Culture Romanian or Hungarian.
22. Torontál-Nagybecskerek-Farmlands: Culture Hungarian.
23. Csanád-Szeged-Farmlands: Potential Center of Trade.
24. Bács-Szabadka-Farmlands: Culture Hungarian.
25. Fejér-Fehérvár-Farmlands.
26. Pest-Buda-Farmlands: Curremt Center of Trade.
27. Heves-Eger-Hills/Plains: Wine region.
28. Somogy-Kaposvár-Woodland:
29. Sopron-Sopron-Farmlands.

I tried to add really only the most necessary ones, and if we count with some reshuffling of development, let's say 8 times 6 development will be added, that's 48.
Currently Hungary has 210 development at the start of the game, of which is 182 Hungary and 28 by the current meta will be Croatia. So the great power rating will be 196.
Now that 182 with the the addition of 48 is 230. With the 50% of Croatia's 28 development, 244 gp rating.
Still 22 shorter to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the weakest great power, which actually had a population like half the size of Hungary, despite being huge.

If someone fears Hungary would be too strong (which I highly doubt, between the PLC, Ottomans and the HRE), Transylvania could be moved to be a lesser union partner or some subject type, similar to what France will get, probably. Or some other ways to represent the level of autonomy of the region.

3. Economics:
Medieval Hungary's economy depended on these goods above all: The hundreds of thousands of cattles, raised on the Alföld and imported to Germany, and the great amound of salt mined if Transylvania. So I'd like to represent those foremostly, besides some wine, grain and metal producing provinces. Metal producing was prevalent in the Upper Hungarian mining towns, while in the eastern carpathian, there were pastoral Vlach, Ruthenian and Hungarian communities.
Also, cities were relatively small at the time, compared to Western Europe, the capital had around 15 thousand inhabitants, other 'Free Royal Cities' around 5-10 thousand.

Yellow squares represent trade centers. All of them lvl1 on the picture except maybe Wien.
Besides Pest and Kolozs, there should be at least one more trade center, my pick would be Szeged (in current Békés) and/or Brassó (in current Királyföld). The former was important salt trading port at the confluence of the Maros and the Tisza rivers, the second was a Transylvanian town, which had a role in trade towards Constantinople. I think both deserves it (not like Pozsony/Pressburg, which became important later), but if I had to choose I'd pick Szeged for it's central position.
I also added a center to Nicopolis in Bulgaria.

So overall I added 54 development to Hungary for now, mostly by 8 new provinces, and reshuffled existing development to mirror regional differences better.
If someone is concerned 54 is too much, it could be decreased somewhat, but not without creating unhistorically undeveloped areas. It's already very lame how in Russia there are 10+ development provinces, but basically none in Hungary.
Province name: development (dev. change)

A quite rich part of the country, with many important mining towns in Zólyom, so it worthy of having at least 10 development. Pozsony/Pressburg/Bratislava on the other hand wasn't so important or rich.
Pozsony: 9 (-4)
Trencsén: 6 (0)
Hont: 9 (0)
Zólyom: 10 (new, +10)
Szepes: 7 (-2)

Probably the least developed part of the country.
Zemplén: 6 (-1)
Bereg: 5 (new, +5)
Máramaros: 4 (-1)

Kolozs (old Torda province) is the center of Transylvania, should have lvl1 trade center& at least 9 development.
Kolozs: 9 (+3)
Beszterce: 6 (new, +6)
Maros: 6 (-2)

Királyföld, with large Saxon population, was one of the richest region.
Királyföld: 9 (+1)
Fehér: 7 (new, +7)
Hunyad: 6 (-2)

Bihar, a hilly region with dense forests has a low development for a reason, the rest not much higher either. Temesvár rose to importance later.
Szatmár: 6 (new, +6)
Bihar: 5 (0)
Arad: 7 (new, +7)
Temes: 7 (-1)

Pest, the capital was quite developed, or at least developed than Pozsony/Pressburg/Bratislava back then, which rose to prominence in the 18th century. The new Szolnok province is inhabited by the Cumans, not so developed, so only 6 dev.
Pest: 13 (+2)
Eger: 7 (-1)
Szabolcs: 7 (-1)
Szolnok: 6 (new, +6)

With very good quality soil, this region should have at least 6-7 development, not 5, as currently.
Bács: 7 (+2)
Torontál: 7 (-1)
Békés: 9 (+3)

The richest region of the country, at least 3/3/3 for them, except Zala, where 3/3/2 is enough. Zala 3/3/4, it had a high population density. So 9 dev on average.
Sopron: 9 (+1)
Fejér: 9 (+1)
Somogy: 10 (+2)
Zala: 8 (new, +8)

Slavonia state: (+2 development for Croatia)"
Slavonia: 6(+1) (to be renamed Kőrös/Pozsega)
Varasd: 6 (+1)
Belovár: 5 (+1)
Szerém: 5 (0)

Croatia: (+0 development)
Lika's 12 development divided between Lika (mountainous, low population) and the new Rijeka (important port). Aswell might be 8-4.
Zagreb: 7 (0)
Rijeka: 7 (0)
Lika: 5 (0)

4. Areas
A possible setting of areas:

Orange: Upper Hungary (Felvidék)
Light Green: Subcarpathia (Kárpátalja)
Turquise: Northern Transylvania (Észak-Erdély)
Dark Green: Southern Transylvania (Dél-Erdély)
Red: Partium
Blue: Northern Alföld (Észak-Alföld)
Yellow: Southern Alföld (Dél-Alföld)
Pink: Transdanubia (Dunántúl)

With these provinces it's possible to represent all the major divisions of the timeline, most importantly the Three Hungary: Habsburg Upper, independent Transylvania, and Ottoman-occupied central-Alföld.
Golden Age of Hungary:

This map, besides most of Europe, also show's how was the administrative division of the Kingdom back then around 1490.
Divided Hungary:

The three Hungary. The Ottomans conquered the plains, but couldn't get over the mountainous upper parts of the country, which accepted Habsburg control. Meanwhile, in the east, far from Wien's reach, Transylvania tried to maintain peace with the Ottomans, expanded northwest, benefiting from anti-Habsburg movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary_(1526–1867)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Transylvania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary

Banat, the last part of the country to be freed from the Ottomans, in 1716:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat


5. Cultures
I'd disintegrate the Transylvanian culture, and represent Hungarian, Romanian and Saxon populations.
Saxons obviously should be in Királyföld, and the new Beszterce, and I'd make Temes, Hunyad, Arad and Bihar Romanian culture.
I'm fine with Slovak and South Slavic cultures, and I think the new Bereg province should rather be Hungarian, than one more Ruthenian.

Green: Slovak, Orange: Ruthenian, Blue: Saxon, Yellow: Romanian. I would leave south slavic as it is currently.

Alternatively, as Eu4 has a tendency to represent the ruling class, all non-Saxon province in Transylvania could start as Hungarian, and the mentioned ones turn Romanian with that event around 1650. But I think it should just start somehow like the maps show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Transylvania_(1570–1711)

Transylvania had a lot of inhabitants throughout the timeline. Long story short: Even the Romans had outposts there, then in the Migration Period first the Visigothic Kingdom stood there, then it was part of the Hunnic Empire, then an other germanic tribe, the Gepids ruled it, after them, the Avars, who were probably a turkic tribe. They allowed slavic immigration, but then the Bulgarians defeated them and incorporated Transylvania to their Empire, just for the Moravians to rebel against them. Then around 900 Hungarians conquered the whole Carpathian Basin.
The Szeklers arrived in the 12th century to Transylvania as border guards, and the Saxons in the 12th and 13th centuries, the South Slavs and Vlachs started to settle in great numbers the southern and eastern parts of the country around the Ottoman wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Transylvania


Here: Red: Hungarian, Blue: Saxon, Yellow: Vlach, Orange: Slavic


@neondt, @Caligula Caesar, @Ofaloaf I hope you guys are willing to give the Hungarian Kingdom's map a decent rework, don't leave it in such a condition as it is now. Some events can't compensate for an awfully uncorrect and undetailed map. With the detachment of Croatia there must be room for some (not too much, just the minimal necessary) development added :)[/SPOILER]
 
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xiaojunge

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I agree,1.21hungry has two years since then,besides,hungry is very awkward in europe,although he is a large country,his exist is very low and weak,and in the recent update his neighbor poland get strengthed ,and 1.29 his neighbor is more powerful,so i hope can give hungry a little help
 

Entrone

First Lieutenant
Mar 27, 2016
276
41
Regarding the development of the region:
The Kingdom of Hungary, while not a clear great power, it was far from being unimportant. Yet, in the game, it's average development is on par/even lower than that of Muscovy or the Great Horde. Which is wrong. It's development should be similar to that of Poland or Castile: behind western europe, but not that much. I just can't get over how undeveloped this region is in the game, and I'm very disappointed the devs think it's ok like this. Nothing to fix? Except the whole is wrong.
The reason behind being scared of buffing Hungary, is that it will expand "unhistorically". Well in the first 50 years of the game, it conquered Wien, Moravia, and expanded towards the Balkans. And between the PLC/Russia, the HRE and the Ottomans it has like 0 chance to 'ruin' histrical gameflow.

This is how it should look in development map mode (I will update this post with the exact suggested development numbers written on provinces):

Dark Orange: 4 dev
Mid Orange: 5-6 dev
Light Orange: 6-7 dev
Yellow: 8-9 dev
Light Green: 10 dev
Mid Green: 12-14 dev
Dark Green (Wien, Krakkow, Prague): 15+ dev.

So overall I added 54 development to Hungary for now, mostly by 8 new provinces, and reshuffled existing development to mirror regional differences better.
If someone is concerned 54 is too much, it could be decreased somewhat, but not without creating unhistorically undeveloped areas. It's already very lame how in Russia there are 10+ development provinces, but basically none in Hungary.
Province name: development (dev. change)

A quite rich part of the country, with many important mining towns in Zólyom, so it worthy of having at least 10 development. Pozsony/Pressburg/Bratislava on the other hand wasn't so important or rich.
Pozsony: 9 (-4)
Trencsén: 6 (0)
Hont: 9 (0)
Zólyom: 10 (new, +10)
Szepes: 7 (-2)

Probably the least developed part of the country.
Zemplén: 6 (-1)
Bereg: 5 (new, +5)
Máramaros: 4 (-1)

Kolozs (old Torda province) is the center of Transylvania, should have lvl1 trade center& at least 9 development.
Kolozs: 9 (+3)
Beszterce: 6 (new, +6)
Maros: 6 (-2)

Királyföld, with large Saxon population, was one of the richest region.
Királyföld: 9 (+1)
Fehér: 7 (new, +7)
Hunyad: 6 (-2)

Bihar, a hilly region with dense forests has a low development for a reason, the rest not much higher either. Temesvár rose to importance later.
Szatmár: 6 (new, +6)
Bihar: 5 (0)
Arad: 7 (new, +7)
Temes: 7 (-1)

Pest, the capital was quite developed, or at least developed than Pozsony/Pressburg/Bratislava back then, which rose to prominence in the 18th century. The new Szolnok province is inhabited by the Cumans, not so developed, so only 6 dev.
Pest: 13 (+2)
Eger: 7 (-1)
Szabolcs: 7 (-1)
Szolnok: 6 (new, +6)

With very good quality soil, this region should have at least 6-7 development, not 5, as currently.
Bács: 7 (+2)
Torontál: 7 (-1)
Békés: 9 (+3)

The richest region of the country, at least 3/3/3 for them, except Zala, where 3/3/2 is enough. Zala 3/3/4, it had a high population density. So 9 dev on average.
Sopron: 9 (+1)
Fejér: 9 (+1)
Somogy: 10 (+2)
Zala: 8 (new, +8)

Slavonia state: (+2 development for Croatia)"
Slavonia: 6(+1) (to be renamed Kőrös/Pozsega)
Varasd: 6 (+1)
Belovár: 5 (+1)
Szerém: 5 (0)

Croatia: (+0 development)
Lika's 12 development divided between Lika (mountainous, low population) and the new Rijeka (important port). Aswell might be 8-4.
Zagreb: 7 (0)
Rijeka: 7 (0)
Lika: 5 (0)
 
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The Prussian Blackadder

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This is exactly what I wanted to see for Hungary. But I guess Hungary will stay ahistorical, despite it being a secondary power during this period.
 

Kane_hun

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I think if we are considering additional provinces, you should include the province of Komárom (farmlands/marsh/woods, Hungarian culture, 4/4/2, lvl 1 trade center, roughly covering the Csallóköz/Rye Island area) It would allow the better representation of cultural border and could have a fort (Hungary already has a lot of them, but Pest is unfortified and can be invaded from the west, it could prevent that).
 

Entrone

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This is exactly what I wanted to see for Hungary. But I guess Hungary will stay ahistorical, despite it being a secondary power during this period.
Yeah, it's so shameful, I never actually played with my own nation more than up to 1450. Because it's represented a way too wrong I just can't stand it. If I play as any other nation, I just try to keep it alive, but playing it? Naaaaah.


@mechanical_Critter What are you disagreeing with? :)

I think if we are considering additional provinces, you should include the province of Komárom (farmlands/marsh/woods, Hungarian culture, 4/4/2, lvl 1 trade center, roughly covering the Csallóköz/Rye Island area) It would allow the better representation of cultural border and could have a fort (Hungary already has a lot of them, but Pest is unfortified and can be invaded from the west, it could prevent that).
In the previous version I had a new province for Komárom and Esztergom (I picked Esztergom as capital for obvious reasons, the seat of the Bishops of Hungary). But I had to remove a few of my new provinces, because I tried to be realistic. There's room for 1 more province later maybe, but my main priority was to make a suggestion that could actually get implemented.
Nearly all hungarian provinces could be divided in two, so I had to cherrypick the most needed ones.

So this was my Esztergom:

I'd make it 3/3/2 (cuz it's quite small), no trade center there, but definately Hungarian culture and farmlands. Encompassing the old counties of Komárom and Esztergom:
 
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otaats

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Very nice suggestions, i would like for Hungary to be a part of the new map overhaul regardless of the Hungary update.
 

Pbhuh

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One minor addition I would add is the province of Nitra seperated from Pozsony/Pressburg.

It's included in many of your sources plus its obviously the richest part of Slovakia.
 

Entrone

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One minor addition I would add is the province of Nitra seperated from Pozsony/Pressburg.

It's included in many of your sources plus its obviously the richest part of Slovakia.
In my version, Nitra's northern parts are given to Pozsony, while the southern and/or eastern parts are in the province currently called Hont. But the name could be changed to Nitra, as there is that river, and Nitra was bigger and more popolous than Hont. Actually half of the hungarian province names are like chosen randomly (Békés, Szepes, Torda etc...). Not to mention they rarely have accurate borders, the placing of cities is awful, and the states or areas have not much to do with reality.

Long story short, it's not like "We see no need to fix what isn't broken.", as neondt said, but rather you guys should fix all of it because everything is broken.
 

sparta105

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While I agree with almost everything everything here, I have to point out that the current borders of Transylvania are meant to represent the Duchy of Transylvania rahter than the geographical term.
I think the provinces in the Délvidék/Vajdaság/Voivodina region should be 2/2/1 or even 1/1/1 dev provinces since they have been subject to constant Ottoman raids ever since king Louis I. Entire villages disappeared in the Szerémség during Louis and Sigismund, and the area had to repopulated by the fleeing Serbians.
 

Kane_hun

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While I agree with almost everything everything here, I have to point out that the current borders of Transylvania are meant to represent the Duchy of Transylvania rahter than the geographical term.
I think the provinces in the Délvidék/Vajdaság/Voivodina region should be 2/2/1 or even 1/1/1 dev provinces since they have been subject to constant Ottoman raids ever since king Louis I. Entire villages disappeared in the Szerémség during Louis and Sigismund, and the area had to repopulated by the fleeing Serbians.
While its true that those lands were devastated, bear in mind that it would put them on par with Siberia, Greenland and many pacific islands, and I would argue that even after the raids they were a bit richer than that.
 

sparta105

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While its true that those lands were devastated, bear in mind that it would put them on par with Siberia, Greenland and many pacific islands, and I would argue that even after the raids they were a bit richer than that.
A bit? :D
To be honest, this is exactly why I'd prefer actual population over development. You have a very convincing argument, but on the other hand, these regions were devastated even before the 15 years war. So it's a pick your poison type of scenario.
 

Kane_hun

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@Entrone What do you think about something like this:
mapv01.png

The western border roughly follows the Little Danube (could be a river crossing between Pozsony and Komárom) and the eastern somewhat follows the Counties of Komárom and Eszetergom. While historically they reached through the Danube, it would look a bit odd on the map, but might be more accurate.

I would also consider making the High Tatras wasteland actually block movement between Trencsén and Nowy Sacz, because they wont implement a wasteland that doesnt serve a practicaly purpose. I am a bit undecisive about the Low Tatras, since there was some troop movement there during the 1848-49 campaigns, and making it a bigger wasteland than the actually higher Tatras is a bit odd.
 

Entrone

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While I agree with almost everything everything here, I have to point out that the current borders of Transylvania are meant to represent the Duchy of Transylvania rahter than the geographical term.
Probably, but the Principality of Transylvania's borders changed so frequently that it's not a good choice. At the start of the game, Transylvanian borders have been the same for nearly a half millenium. I'm sure that should be represented.

I think the provinces in the Délvidék/Vajdaság/Voivodina region should be 2/2/1 or even 1/1/1 dev provinces since they have been subject to constant Ottoman raids ever since king Louis I. Entire villages disappeared in the Szerémség during Louis and Sigismund, and the area had to repopulated by the fleeing Serbians.
Surely, there was devastation. I'd represent it rather with a starting devastation at 20% or something like that. I'm okay with 5 or 6 development for Torontál and Szerém, Bács fared better, that's why I picked 7 for that. That's a very fertile land, once was one of the most important grain producing region (together with Békés, Torontál and Temes).
But 1/1/1 is like a completely uninhabited desert or tundra, I don't want any of that in the middle of Europe, it's unreal.

@Entrone What do you think about something like this:
View attachment 494061

The western border roughly follows the Little Danube (could be a river crossing between Pozsony and Komárom) and the eastern somewhat follows the Counties of Komárom and Eszetergom. While historically they reached through the Danube, it would look a bit odd on the map, but might be more accurate.
I still don't know why would you pick Komárom. Eszergom was much more important, and if we have that province, rather have it historically, reaching through the Danube.

But, honestly I don't find it that necessary to make a little province just to have some Hungarian culture north of the Danube. While it would be nice to represent the cultures actually accurately, yet with the current form of Hungary I find it impossible to make a suggestion that's both very accurate, and implementable.
In most games the players convert cultures anyways, and making Hont/Nyitra hungarian would result weird-looking culture map that people would hate.
My version of Hungary is far from perfect, but it's so awful currently we can't make it perfect in one patch.

That was my idea too, but as I made some research I found it's not impassable between Újszandec (Nowy Sacz) and Trencsén. It could be made like that yet, but with such a few impassable terrain, I don't want to devaluate them.

The Low Tatras, while not that high, are not an easy terrain either. And it would give additional flavour to maneuver around with armies. That a bit later there was troop movement in the 48 Revolution, doesen't mean it have been such in the 15th century. I made it bigger than the High Tatras, because by territory it's simply a lot bigger.
 
Last edited:

Mingmung

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Good suggestion and I agree with the fact that Hungary is severely underdeveloped. I mean, it seems the Iron Curtain still has an effect on us.

I do miss Szombathely and Brasov, though. ;)
 

Entrone

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Good suggestion and I agree with the fact that Hungary is severely underdeveloped. I mean, it seems the Iron Curtain still has an effect on us.

I do miss Szombathely and Brasov, though. ;)
Thank you, I'm glad you agree :) I just can't get over it how the devs think it's ok like this.

Btw if you mean Szombathely, because it's role in the counter-reformation, it rose to such a prominence later in Habsburg times. Maybe my new Zala province could be changed to Vas, with Szombathely as capital, if it's really important. :)
Brassó would be cool to have, originally I divided Királyföld, the western part remaining such, the eastern smaller turning into Brassó/Fogaras with Brassó as capital, but the devs are reluctant to add 8 provinces, so I had to dump this idea just like Esztergom.
 
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AirikrStrife

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I agree with most things in this thread, but can't comment on the specific provinces much as I don't know your history that well, but some comments and questions:

I suggested making a province for jas/cumans that would have steppe terrain, allowing the province to have cossack estate, that would work to represent to jas and cumans

In the past I made suggestion to how better represent the post varna turmoil in hungary, taking, letting characters like jiri jiskra of brandys and the counts of celje play larger parts. This could be used as a way of mitigating the hungarian dev bost.
Some key events that happened in 1444-1445: jan jiskra becomes practically independent hussite ruler of upper hungary, fredrick III taking sopron and the counts of cili taking slavonia

If transylvanian were to be split, i think the germans are a big problem, first though while being called 'saxons' they were not upper/lower saxons, but their dialect is actually rhenish. Secondly it would cause some issues with things like the age object to unify culture, give some weird nationalist cb's. Devs seems to be pretty strong against making non-contingent culture groups

Does vojvodina and zakarphathia makes sense as area names in the euiv era?

Culture of timis seems very mixed, do you have better sources on the area?
 

Entrone

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I agree with most things in this thread, but can't comment on the specific provinces much as I don't know your history that well, but some comments and questions:
Thank you for your contribution, these are constructive questions, I'm glad to answer. :)

I suggested making a province for jas/cumans that would have steppe terrain, allowing the province to have cossack estate, that would work to represent to jas and cumans
So, I think it would be rather wrong than good. The terrain is plains, not steppe. It would look ridiculous to have 1 steppe province so lonely in the middle of Europe. Second, I would remove Cossacks alltogether from Hungary, not reinforce them, it's completely unhistorical. While it could 'represent' them, it could mislead thousands of people into thinking there were actual Cossacks.
While we doesen't have accurate ethnic censuses from this age, it's assumed that the Cumans/Jassic people got completely assimilated up until the 16th century and Ottoman Wars, maybe even sooner.

In the past I made suggestion to how better represent the post varna turmoil in hungary, taking, letting characters like jiri jiskra of brandys and the counts of celje play larger parts. This could be used as a way of mitigating the hungarian dev bost.
Some key events that happened in 1444-1445: jan jiskra becomes practically independent hussite ruler of upper hungary, fredrick III taking sopron and the counts of cili taking slavonia
While that part of the history is basically absent, I can imagine how it would be hard to represent all that turmoil correctly. For example Jiri Jiskra -Giskra János definately had some important role, not just there. He started as a bandit-lord, plundering, then switched sides between rulers frquently. Later in his life he became a faithful servient of Matthias Corvinus, even leading his armies against Moldova.
I can imagine a simplified version as event, maybe connected to some Bohemian events, that some rebels rise up in Upper Hungary, and if the player defeats them you can
-hire him, having a decent commander, but at the price of some autonomy increase in some provinces in Upper Hungary OR
-execute him, risking a further uprising (representing his remaining soldiers) or some unrest in those provinces (this is unhistorical, locals probably didn't like him at all)
Thoughts? :)

If transylvanian were to be split, i think the germans are a big problem, first though while being called 'saxons' they were not upper/lower saxons, but their dialect is actually rhenish. Secondly it would cause some issues with things like the age object to unify culture, give some weird nationalist cb's. Devs seems to be pretty strong against making non-contingent culture groups
Well, that didn't stopped them from making Riga prussian. Which is right, it was an overwhelmingly german town. Just like Királyföld an overwhelmingly german region. I prefer historical accuracy over contigent cultures. Germans in transylvania are definately comparable in importance to their Baltic brethen.
About which germanic culture should they be, I would still pick Saxons. Afterall, they are Transylvanian Saxons, not Germans, as Zipler Germans of Upper Hungary. Their first wave was Saxon, that's where the name comes from.
It has been stated on this forum several times that culture is not equal to language. Their language was closer to rhenish (actually Franconian), probably because they came from all over the HRE (actually even Italian and French settlers arrived), so their languages, including upper and lower dialects, mixed, ending up being closer to the central dialects.

Does vojvodina and zakarphathia makes sense as area names in the euiv era?
Vojvodina was created after the 1848 Revolution, so it doesen't make it to the game. Before it was never called like that, so I'd pick the hungarian Délvidék name for that state, which was widely known.
Zakarpatia name is used basically just by the Ruthenians, in hungarian it's Kárpátalja, which, as far as I know, have been in use in this scope. Alternatively Subcarpathia or Transcarpathia, which are more widely understood.

I'd prefer homogenous Hungarian names
Felvidék - Upper Hungary
Dunántúl - Transdanubuia
Aldöld is already Alföld (referred to as Hungarian Plains in english)
Partium is ok as Partium (t pronounced as 'c' because it's from Latin)
Kárpátalja - Subcarpathia/Transcarpathia/Zakarpatia
Erdély - Transylvania (this might be an exeption, as it was very multicultural)
Délvidék - ?Vojvodina? (I don't have other non-hungarian idea)

Because, while I try not being too self-centered, it doesen't make sense to have the names in different languages, and we already have Alföld.

Culture of timis seems very mixed, do you have better sources on the area?
I doubt there are any source on this from pre-ottoman era, the best guess is still that it was very mixed, with varying estimations (depending on nationality, mostly...).
As I mentioned I'd either make that region all-hungarian or all-romanian, for the sake of contigency, for now :p
 
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AirikrStrife

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