Rome vs Italy

[Daurien]

Okay, strange question time. Bear in mind that I am still relatively new to EUIV, so I could be reading things wrong.

While playing my most recent game, I formed Italy. Looking at the wiki, it seems that the Italian mission tree will get me the vast majority of provinces needed to form the Roman Empire, as well as ending up within striking distance of the rest. However, while looking at the details of the Roman Empire, I noticed something. Most of the Roman idea bonuses show up in the Italian ideas as well, but the Italian bonuses have bigger numbers. For instance, Rome gets a 20% core creation cost benefit, but Italy gets 25%. Rome gets 10% infantry combat ability, but Italy gets 15%. Is it just me, or is forming the Roman Empire not actually worth it for an Italian player? I get no new missions to complete, nor do I gain any fantastic cores or claims, so it seems like the main benefit will just be the achievemant, the fancy name, map color, unit models, and bragging rights. again, I could be missing something here, but I just cannot justify forming the old Roman Empire when my new Italian Empire is doing so well for itself and provides me with better bonuses.

 

[JaxElite]

Rome is a trap. The culture change alone makes it a bad choice most of the time. Alsonthey got 0 flavour events. Italy on the other hsnd is known for it's great ideas. Kust stay italy until you are done with the dave and then form rome just dor the gratification

 

[Hezekiah]

Right now the Rome tag is in a very sad state. It's very situational as to whether you want to proclaim the Imperium or not, whereas many Christian powers during the time period would have gladly proclaimed a Roman state.

As stated by JaxElite, the cultural union alone is enough reason to not form Rome. Roman ideas haven't aged well either, so you are much better off remaining Italy.

One of the better candidates to form Rome is Ming, since Rome has better ideas than Ming, and Orthodox Metropolitans help with devastation for Mandate control.

Edit: I mention this because Ming can only form Rome or the HRE, and starting as Ming and forming Rome is much easier than forming the HRE while starting as a not-Christian in east Asia.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

Okay, strange question time. Bear in mind that I am still relatively new to EUIV, so I could be reading things wrong.

While playing my most recent game, I formed Italy. Looking at the wiki, it seems that the Italian mission tree will get me the vast majority of provinces needed to form the Roman Empire, as well as ending up within striking distance of the rest. However, while looking at the details of the Roman Empire, I noticed something. Most of the Roman idea bonuses show up in the Italian ideas as well, but the Italian bonuses have bigger numbers. For instance, Rome gets a 20% core creation cost benefit, but Italy gets 25%. Rome gets 10% infantry combat ability, but Italy gets 15%. Is it just me, or is forming the Roman Empire not actually worth it for an Italian player? I get no new missions to complete, nor do I gain any fantastic cores or claims, so it seems like the main benefit will just be the achievemant, the fancy name, map color, unit models, and bragging rights. again, I could be missing something here, but I just cannot justify forming the old Roman Empire when my new Italian Empire is doing so well for itself and provides me with better bonuses.

You can form a tag without changing the ideas you use

 

[Daurien]

You can form a tag without changing the ideas you use

How do you do that?

 

[Kapitalisti]

How do you do that?

When you form a tag with new ideas the game fires an event that lets you either get the new ideas or keep your old ones.

 

[Daurien]

When you form a tag with new ideas the game fires an event that lets you either get the new ideas or keep your old ones.

Oh cool, thanks. I guess that I missed the other option when I formed Italy.

 

[TheSpider]

Rome is basically an Easter egg tag but it would be neat at least if they had their own unique government type like the Mongol Empire

 

[Hezekiah]

Rome is basically an Easter egg tag but it would be neat at least if they had their own unique government type like the Mongol Empire

How about like the Mughal empire instead?

 

[augustuscaeser2]

Rome is a trap. The culture change alone makes it a bad choice most of the time. Alsonthey got 0 flavour events. Italy on the other hsnd is known for it's great ideas. Kust stay italy until you are done with the dave and then form rome just dor the gratification

You can get around this if you form the Mughals first - then you get to assimilate the Lost Cultures group too and get another 5% discipline. Although you will need to double religion switch- for Mughals you need to be Muslim, for Rome you need to be Christian or Pagan

 

[The Norman Yoke]

Rome is basically an Easter egg tag but it would be neat at least if they had their own unique government type like the Mongol Empire

It was just for ck2 carry overs, then they let it be formable by all

 

[Hezekiah]

You can get around this if you form the Mughals first - then you get to assimilate the Lost Cultures group too and get another 5% discipline. Although you will need to double religion switch- for Mughals you need to be Muslim, for Rome you need to be Christian or Pagan

That is, unfortunately, incorrect.

I've tried this. When the Mughals form Rome, they lose the Mughal Diwan, Mansabdari System, and Zabt System government reforms. This means that Christian or Pagan Mughals should not form Rome if they are interested in optimal play. This "discovery" killed my desire to play a Mughals into Rome game I had started.

I've made a suggestion to address this unusual situation: Make the Mughals keep unique government reforms when forming super end game tags

 

[holyvigil]

That is, unfortunately, incorrect.

I've tried this. When the Mughals form Rome, they lose the Mughal Diwan, Mansabdari System, and Zabt System government reforms. This means that Christian or Pagan Mughals should not form Rome if they are interested in optimal play. This "discovery" killed my desire to play a Mughals into Rome game I had started.

I've made a suggestion to address this unusual situation: Make the Mughals keep unique government reforms when forming super end game tags

You can the switch back to Muslim and retake the reforms right?

 

[Hezekiah]

You can the switch back to Muslim and retake the reforms right?

The reforms are only available to the Mughal tag. I just attempted this with the console, and changing back to Islam does not unlock the reforms again after having formed Rome.

 

[augustuscaeser2]

That is, unfortunately, incorrect.

I've tried this. When the Mughals form Rome, they lose the Mughal Diwan, Mansabdari System, and Zabt System government reforms. This means that Christian or Pagan Mughals should not form Rome if they are interested in optimal play. This "discovery" killed my desire to play a Mughals into Rome game I had started.

I've made a suggestion to address this unusual situation: Make the Mughals keep unique government reforms when forming super end game tags

Ah RIP - I had a Mughals game where I converted and kept the reforms. I guess the way to do it would be to force a native to reform off of you so they get the unique reforms, then convert to a native religion and reform off of the new tag. I know on 1.29 I created multiple revolutionary republics that way - but maybe that was fixed

 

[Hezekiah]

Ah RIP - I had a Mughals game where I converted and kept the reforms. I guess the way to do it would be to force a native to reform off of you so they get the unique reforms, then convert to a native religion and reform off of the new tag. I know on 1.29 I created multiple revolutionary republics that way - but maybe that was fixed

I kept the reforms when I changed religion, but I think the reforms are tag specific.

 

[L'Afrique]

I agree Rome should be called an easter egg not a trap- by the time you have the required provinces, you've won. Continuing on and dumpstering the AI can be fun but it's not like you'll be needing the better ideas or reforms or missions.

 

[augustuscaeser2]

I kept the reforms when I changed religion, but I think the reforms are tag specific.

Yes, they are supposed to be tag specific… but you might be able to get around that with reforming a native religion such that you reform off of someone else with Diwin - like another AI that you managed to force to reform off of you. I’ll test it with the console and add the save here if it works

 

[Dracupuncture]

as a new eu4 player you sohuld congratulate yourself, you did well noticing that rome is kinda shitty