Reworks on The Caucasus and East Anatolia

[PraiseMeLikeIAmYours]

Hey guys!

This is actually my third thread about improvement on the Caucasus. From my second thread, I actually got a lot of feedback that I didn't propose "enough" provinces to represent the violent region. I try to improve on this, my last two threads I mainly focuses on Circassia, which is my favorite nation. However, I do things differently this time.

I expanded my suggestion to touch the southern states of Caucasus and a little of East Anatolia. I also try to focus on map changes instead of detailed suggestion like ideas and missions. So without further ado:

My Proposal

North Caucasus:

Spoiler

I split the existing Circassia nation into 9 provinces and 7 nations:

1. Tribe of Shapsugs (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Tuapse Province (1/1/1)
   • Circassia Culture
   • Animist Religion
   • Historical Rival of Abazin
2. Tribe of Zichia (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Adyghe Province (1/1/1)
   • Circassia Culture
   • Orthodox Religion
   • Have a core on Martega (Genoa)
   • Modified the size a bit to cut Adyghe from Crimea Khanate
3. Tribe of Abazin (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Abazin Province (1/1/1)
   • Circassia Culture
   • Animist Religion
   • Historical Rival of Shapsugs
   • Have a core on Tuapse
4. Tribe of Karachay (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Karachay Province (1/1/1)
   • Turkic Culture
   • Sunni Religion
   • Historical Friend of Balkaria
   • Vassal of Kabardia
5. Tribe of Balkaria (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Balkaria Province (1/1/1)
   • Turkic Culture
   • Sunni Religion
   • Historical Friend of Karachay
   • Vassal of Kabardia
6. Tribe of Alania (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Alania Province (1/1/1)
   • Alania Culture *New
   • Orthodox Religion
   • Vassal of Kabardia
7. Duchy of Kabardia (Despotic Monarchy)
   • Province List (Clockwise):
   • Temirgoy Province (2/3/2)
   • Besleney Province (1/2/1)
   • Kabardia Province (1/1/2) *Capital
   • Vassal: Karachay, Balkaria & Alania - as historical records that those three tribes exclusively do trades to Kabardia
   • Could start as tributary of Great Horde

East Caucasus:

Spoiler

I split the existing Dagestan province into Dagestan Province (Landlocked) and Derbent (Coastal)
Khunzia and Terek also splitted into Terek, Khunzakh, Vainakh and Avaria.
I actually suggested to change "Dagestani" culture to "Avars" culture but it's not that important
The nations are:

1. Duchy of Gazikumukh
   • Start with Tarki and Lakia, provinces development buffed to maintain vassal
   • Culture and Religion doesn't change
   • Have Avaria and Karakaitag (Dagestan) as Vassal
   • Could start as tributary of Great Horde
2. Duchy of Avaria
   • As existing
3. Tribe of Karakaitag (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Dagestan Province (1/1/2)
   • Vassal of Gazikumukh
4. Duchy of Shirvan
   • Derbent province should have boosted development as it was very compact and Islamic center of learning in northern Caucasus (2/3/2) is my suggestion. Also to make up the loss of Shaki
5. Duchy of Shaki
   • As existing
   • Independent
6. Tribe of Dido (Tribal Monarchy)
   • Dido Province (1/1/1)
   • Dagestani Culture
   • Sunni Religion
   • Independent

South Caucasus:

Spoiler

1. Trebizond
   • Split into two provinces: Trebizond (as existing) and Lezgia (2/1/1) - The eastern one
   • Lezgia will have accepted Georgian culture
   • Actualy, I think both should have Georgian culture. As Trebizond was often nicknamed rincipality of Lezgians"
   • Both Provinces are Orthodox
   • Should have historical friend modifier to Kara Koyunlu
   • Modified the provinces to cut off Trezibond from Ottoman, this is based on Historical record when Ottoman had to subjugated Candar to get access to Trebizond (Source: Siege of Trebizond)
2. Georgia
   • I proposed Georgia to be united at the start, but the west and southern province to be occupied by rebels. This is because the breakup of Georgia happened in 1445. The details will be on revolter spoiler
   • Add new provinces of Sveneti
   • Buff development of Imereti
   • Changed the culture of Abkhazia to Circassia
3. Candar and Canik
   • Modified Sinop and Canik provinces shape as pictured
   • Added independent Beylik of Canik - which in historical are 5 smaller beyliks loyal to Eretna, 1 on them which is Beylik of Bafra made it through 1440s)
   • Beylik of Canik could start as historical friend or vassal of Candar

Revolter:

Spoiler

1. Add "Assyrian" core at A1, A2 and A3
   • Change A1 (Mardin) culture to Assyrian
   • Add new A2 province (Nineveh/Hakkari) from Arbil
   • Assign Assyrian culture to A2
   • Change A3 (Urmia) culture to Assyrian
   • Give them all Coptic religion
   • Give them all Assyrian core which give claims to all Mesopotamia
2. Add Beylik of "Erzincan" core to B (Erzincan) province. The beylik was annexed on 1430s, they should retained the core 15 years later
3. Occupy C1 and C2 provinces with Samsthke rebels at the start of the game (maybe progress 75% so they would break free in less than 1 year)
4. Occupy E, F, G, H and J provinces with Imereti rebels at the start of the game (maybe progress also on 75%)
   • Upon independence, they will split into: (Could be event)
   • Principality of Guria (E Province)
   • Kingdom of Imereti (F Province)
   • Principality of Sveneti (G province)
   • Principality of Mingrelia (H province)
   • Imereti's rebelious vassal Principality of Abkhazia (J Province)
5. Add "Lezgia" core to D (Lezgia) province
6. I'd spare Georgia from Kartli and Kakethi cores

Formable:

Spoiler

1. Kingdom of Circassia
   • Unite all Circassian provinces culture except for Abkhazia
2. Caucasus Imamate
   • Unite Dagestan, Lakia, Avaria, Dido and Vainakh provinces

What do you guys think?
I'm obviously not an expert, so feel free to discuss.

 

[Nykyus]

Adyghe authors write that in the middle of the XVI century all Adyghe tribes entered into an Alliance with Moscow. Moscow planned to do with the Crimean khanate as well as with Kazan and Astrakhan. With this purpose, sent a detachment of Vishnevetsky also put a fortress on the river Psla river. But because of the Livonian war Ivan IV the Terrible was forced to abandon the plan of destruction of the Crimean khanate. The Alliance broke. Only Temryuk Idarov was still an ally of Russia, but he was expelled from Kabarda to the lower Terek, where they fought with Kabarda and Shamhal Tarki. They became the Little Kabarda, and the rest will be called the Big Kabarda

 

[Reavici]

The back and forth discussion on this topic has made it a bit difficult to follow what's been pointed out. Mtianeti should belong to Kakheti, Kakheti would control the mountain tribes suchs as Khevs, Phsavs and Tush, east of darial gorge, Kartli controled the area around darial gorge extending west including duchy of aragvi, modern day south ossetia (the samachabelo lands) The most accurate is to move kartli province borders so it covers the mountain passes, and give mtianeti to Kakheti

Spoiler

Here I made map to better illustrate what you have said.

Spoiler

It is believed that Tzanars (ancestors of Kakhetians) originated in Khevi, near Darial gorge. They fought Arabs and established principality between Alazani and Iori valley. Initially "Mtianeti" was part of Kakheti until 11th century, and then in 15th century, eastern parts of what we call Mtianeti were incorporated to newly estabilished Kingdom of Kakheti, while western Mtianeti was under Kartli. According to second map descriptions (the first map represents 11th century), in 16th century Kakheti incorporated Duchy of Aragvi. Tbh I am not very familiar with history of this area and can't say exatly when they switched their alligance back to Kartlian monarch. Second description, concerning to eastern Mtianeti says that it was part of Aragvi in mid-17th century. During that times, dukes of Aragvi – Nugzar, Zurab, and Zaal – waged a relentless struggle to achieve more autonomy from the royal authority of Kartli as well as to subdue the free mountainous communities of Pshavi-Khevsureti and Ertso-Tianeti (source wikipedia). Duke of Aragvi participated in Bakhtrioni uprising (1659) in support of Kakhetian monarch.

 

[Aramenian]

The back and forth discussion on this topic has made it a bit difficult to follow what's been pointed out. Mtianeti should belong to Kakheti, Kakheti would control the mountain tribes suchs as Khevs, Phsavs and Tush, east of darial gorge, Kartli controled the area around darial gorge extending west including duchy of aragvi, modern day south ossetia (the samachabelo lands) The most accurate is to move kartli province borders so it covers the mountain passes, and give mtianeti to Kakheti

it should be good now

Spoiler: change

 

[EasternTiger]

Is it possible to rename the Dagestan province, as it obviously doesn't encompass most of Dagestan? Maybe it could be renamed to Derbent?

 

[Aramenian]

Is it possible to rename the Dagestan province, as it obviously doesn't encompass most of Dagestan? Maybe it could be renamed to Derbent?

I changed the name of the Dagestan province to Derbent.

 

[AirikrStrife]

it should be good now

Spoiler: change

View attachment 503438

If we're gonna be nitpicky, there tusheti area is as of now not part of Mtianeti province.

But great work

 

[Aramenian]

If we're gonna be nitpicky, there tusheti area is as of now not part of Mtianeti province.

But great work

I did not want to reduce the area of the Mtianeti province too much

I also made a transformation of provincial borders in the Caucasus and additionally in Moldova.

Spoiler: caucasus

I was supposed to focus on the Caucasus, but I made an exception for Moldavia and transformed the provincial boundaries.

Spoiler: Moldova

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

@Aramenian when's paradox gonna hire you for their maps?

I don't know nearly enough about the Caucasus to comment anything of sufficient use here, but I've been following this thread for a while and it never ceases to be interesting! So I just wanted to commend you guys for the great work you're doing, and hope that the devs consider implementing some of it in-game!

 

[AirikrStrife]

I did not want to reduce the area of the Mtianeti province too much

Sorry I'm saying the opposite, you could enlarge Mtianeti by adding tusheti to the province https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusheti

 

[Aramenian]

when's paradox gonna hire you for their maps?

I already have a well-paid job. I like it. It's enough that people with paradox sacrifice some time to correct the provincial boundaries.

I don't know nearly enough about the Caucasus to comment anything of sufficient use here, but I've been following this thread for a while and it never ceases to be interesting! So I just wanted to commend you guys for the great work you're doing, and hope that the devs consider implementing some of it in-game!

Thanks to the information from Reavici, AirikrStrife and Nykyus, I am able to transform the Caucasus.
I will definitely release this mod soon.

 

[Reavici]

Spoiler

I am strongly against puting Tusheti with Mtianeti area. Tusheti is basically Georgian enclave in Dagestan and it is geographically tied to Kakheti.
Khevi, Aragvi and Ksani are now part of Kartli, while Khevsureti is part of Kakheti. Khevsureti is geographicaly divided by hither and thither areas. One part is locaed in north Caucasus and another is in southern Caucasus. So Mtianeti province should have access to north Caucasus. Draw borders between Mtianeti and Kartli accordingly to my map.

Also I fixed Adjara province, and incorporated modern (Yusufeli district) within Tao. Enlarged Lazia little bit to wesward, which now includes district Ofi as it should be.

As far as this thread is named as The Caucasus and East Anatolia, I decided to suggest new province for Trebizond.
New province should be named as Mesochaldia (inner Chaldia), with its capital at Argyroupolis ("Silver-city", Gümüşhane in Turkish has same meaning).
Locals of Mesochaldia had its own distinct identity, sometimes they are even referred as "Greco-Laz" community (local nobles were definitely not Greek), this area survived until 1479, even after fall of Trebizond Empire in 1461. But I would still put them under "Pontian culture" (such term/concept never existed before rise of Greek nationalism), since they were followers of Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Area of Pontus should consist four provinces, from left to right: Chalybia (Canik in Turkish, capital at Samsun/Amisos), Trebizond, Gümüşhane (capital at Argyroupolis) and Lazistan (capital at Rize).

Spoiler

Borders of the Trebizond empire c. 1300.

Spoiler

According to A. Bryer, toponyme Canik is connected with the name "Chani" which the Laz people call themselves. It is also notable that Anatolian Turks called Empire of Trebizond as "Principality of Canik", after conquering parts of Trebizond Empire, Anatolian Turks proclaimed themselves as new ruler of Caniks, thus emirate/beylik of Canik was established in 1300s, which survived until 1460.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I am strongly against puting Tusheti with Mtianeti area. Tusheti is basically Georgian enclave in Dagestan and it is geographically tied to Kakheti.

Why? the Mtianeti province imo should incorporate all the georgian mountainers with loose allegience to the lowland kingdoms

 

[Reavici]

Why? the Mtianeti province imo should incorporate all the georgian mountainers with loose allegience to the lowland kingdoms

Mtianeti is more like geographical term and not administrative at all. It literally means "mountainous lands", which is common name for various free communities and feudal estates, from both Kartlian and Kakhetian side. So this makes me sceptical to even think about represenration of Mtianeti as a separate province at all. It would hard to define ownership on it considering all of this details...

While concerning to Tusheti, this is one of the isolated area in whole Georgia. Historically Tusheti was stronghold for Georgian cultural expansion in Dagestan, Didoya (small region in Dagestan, borders Tusheti, Vainakh to the north, and Khundzia to the east) almost was Georgianized. Lands around river which starts in Georgia and flows to Dagestan is Tusheti. I would rather group Tusheti along other Dagestani communities and name it Didoeti as part of Kingdom of Kakheti or keep it under Kakheti proper province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_in_Pkhovi_and_Didoya
In medieval Georgian sources Pkhovi (that is Mtianeti) and Didoeti are named separately.

According to medieval Georgian sources both Mianeti and various Dagestanian communities are "share of Kakheti", this was probably result ideology of local clergy, Kakhetian eparchies had its churches all over Dagestan. Neighbouring Dagestanian clans followed Georgian Orthodoxy and even used Georgian scripts and spoke Georgian, until rise of Islam.

 

[Aramenian]

As far as this thread is named as The Caucasus and East Anatolia, I decided to suggest new province for Trebizond.
New province should be named as Mesochaldia (inner Chaldia), with its capital at Argyroupolis ("Silver-city", Gümüşhane in Turkish has same meaning).

I am asking for what you wanted

Spoiler: change

the province of Mesochaldia will produce gold.
Instead of silver, I will give gold. Because silver is not in the game, I wish that paradox will add silver to the game.

I would like to cut off the Ottoman Turks from the trebizond. Thanks to the new Canik country it will be possible but I do not have a flag for them.
Do you have a flag for Canik?

 

[AirikrStrife]

Mtianeti is more like geographical term and not administrative at all. It literally means "mountainous lands", which is common name for various free communities and feudal estates, from both Kartlian and Kakhetian side. So this makes me sceptical to even think about represenration of Mtianeti as a separate province at all. It would hard to define ownership on it considering all of this details...

I think you are getting overzealous, even modern day Georgia did define a Mtianeti province and this is a video game which requires clear borders and a name and certain levels of liberties needs to be taken. In my suggestion Mtianeti is defined as the mountain tribes in the kakhetian parts of the great caucasus, which would include Tusheti. Everything you write abotu Tusheti IMO is justification to put it in a province with other loosely incorporated mountain areas rather than having it part of the lowland kakheti province. Giving the Mtianeti province higher starting autonomy reflecting this. Everything I read about the Tusheti makes them part of the mountain sphere of semi-independent people distinct from the lowlands.

Granted there could be other names for this provinces,

While concerning to Tusheti, this is one of the isolated area in whole Georgia. Historically Tusheti was stronghold for Georgian cultural expansion in Dagestan, Didoya (small region in Dagestan, borders Tusheti, Vainakh to the north, and Khundzia to the east) almost was Georgianized. Lands around river which starts in Georgia and flows to Dagestan is Tusheti. I would rather group Tusheti along other Dagestani communities and name it Didoeti as part of Kingdom of Kakheti or keep it under Kakheti proper province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_in_Pkhovi_and_Didoya
In medieval Georgian sources Pkhovi (that is Mtianeti) and Didoeti are named separately.

According to medieval Georgian sources both Mianeti and various Dagestanian communities are "share of Kakheti", this was probably result ideology of local clergy, Kakhetian eparchies had its churches all over Dagestan. Neighbouring Dagestanian clans followed Georgian Orthodoxy and even used Georgian scripts and spoke Georgian, until rise of Islam

Now this is an interesting argument, but:

The territory of the Dido was, for the most part, ruled by the Avar (Serir) rulers. According to some Georgian sources the southwestern part of this territory was also a part of Georgia and Kakhetia previous to the 11th century. The first records of an independent Dido political unit, a free community, that was nominally dependent on the Avar Khanate, date from the 15th century. Close economic and political ties connected the Dido with other Ando-Dido communities and they also enjoyed good relations with the Tush and Bats living in Kakhetia. The consolidation of Islam in the 18th century resulted in a series of religious wars with the Christians of Georgia.

https://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/didos.shtml

the 15th century was a century of the collapse of Georgian political influence in the region and I believe dido people are better represented as part of Avaria

 

[Nykyus]

Basically Circassians agree that Kabarda moved at the end of the XV century. Ramazan Trakho, 1956 http://padabum.com/d.php?id=211584. In this case, the province of Kabarda loses its meaning. Because Kabarda took a lot of land.
The Adyghe domination in the Ciscaucasia steppes preserved thanks to the victory over the Tatars of the Big Horde. The Adygs defeated the Horde in the Ciscaucasia steppes in the spring of 1492 and the summer of 1494. In 1498, they launched a large-scale offensive that completely displaced the Horde from the territory of the North Caucasus and forced the latter to flee beyond the Don. In connection with the dominance of the Kabardins in the Ciscaucasia steppes in the middle of the XVI century. strong military escort of the Ottoman embassy Abdul Latif to Bukhara is associated. The path of Abdul Latif passed through the Ciscaucasia, accompanied by 300 Janissaries with artillery, to protect themselves from hostile Circassians. The previous Ottoman ambassador, Baba Sheikh, was killed by the Circassians on the road from Astrakhan. In 1569, the Ottoman troops of Kassim Bey and the Crimean Khan Davlet Girey retreated to Astrakhan during an unsuccessful campaign.
Azov "Kabardian road through a waterless place ...". Since there is no lack of water resources south of the Kumo-Manych depression, it must be assumed that the “Kabardian road” ran north of it. And Kasim-bey himself, who led the campaign and lost a significant part of the soldiers, was concerned about the retreat to Azov along the shortest route that lay in the northern reaches of the Ciscaucasia steppes. Belonging to the Circassians of the Ciscaucasia steppes is displayed on cartographic materials; on a map of Sigismund Herberstein engraved by Hirschfogel in 1546; on another map of Herberstein from the Latin edition of Notes on Muscovy in 1556 and a map engraved by Jacob Gastaldo; on the map of Anthony Jenkinson; on the map of Johann Magin from the Italian edition of Ptolemy's geography 1596 https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/155366

They attribute this to the weakening of the northern Big Horde. To the north of Shamkhal Tarki is Idarey, an ally of Muscovy (Ioann (Ivan) IV the Terrible).

Spoiler

At the end of the XVI century. complex feudal contradictions led to decentralization of Kabarda. The disintegration of Kabarda into autonomous possessions was the result of permanent internecine wars that continued throughout the second half of the XVI century. In the last quarter of the XVI century. the outlines of the well-known Kabardian principalities — Kaziei Kabarda, Talostanei, Jilakhstanei and Idarei — became apparent. Kazieva Kabarda occupied mainly the western regions of Kabarda, and the last three - eastern.
Kaziei Kabarda got its name from Prince Kaziy, who came from the elder princely house of Kabarda - Zhanhot, through which the title of Grand Duke was transferred. The father of Kazia, the great prince of Kabarda Psheapshoko actively opposed the collapse of Kabarda in the first quarter of the 17th century, confronting decentralizing forces, led by
which stood Temryuk Idarov. Psheapshoko left as a legacy to his son the largest Kabardian feudal possession of the last quarter of the XVI - beginning of the XVII centuries. villages between the river. Urup and Cherek, in the area of Piatigori and p. Kuma. Important information about ethnogeography and the history of Kabarda was left by the Ottoman author of the 40s. XVII in Evlia Chelyabi.

This is how Kabarda became in 1822 after submission to Russia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кабарда
Weakened by plague epidemics and the departure of a significant part of the population to Chechnya and Western Circassia, Kabarda was finally broken. Of the large Adyghe subethnos, the number of which probably exceeded 300 thousand at the time the conflict began in 1763, after 1822 about 30 thousand remained in Greater Kabarda

Spoiler

 

[Aramenian]

I tried to add the mod to the steam platform and I succeeded, but after adding and running it, the changes I made do not load.
I don't know the reason, I'll try to share it with another way.

 

[Nykyus]

Here is how Circassia should look like in the XVI century. Then at first the Nogais invaded from behind the Urals. Then a strong Kalmyks (Оirats), Nogais who pursue.

 

[Patlichan]

Sorry for the bump but I've made a mod about this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2104226099