I think the japanese have some also, no matter what path you choose and maybe mughuls.
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Is this also true of 1.07beta? I was sure that all positive revolt risk, x 5%, was the modifier to the economic output of a province. I never thought to really look, but as China I had *negative* economic outputs for some provinces due to nationalism, scripted revolt events, and random events (-125% was the all-time winner). At least that's what the mouse-over claimed, but I don't know of any real way to measure the *actual* output of the nation, other than by counting up what the values should be for each individual province, then comparing the total to the economic table.
If the random events are a year or less *and* you flag them so they're disable during historical events then you have your solution, at least going in one direction. If you get the random event first and it stacks for 20 years with an historical event - well, that's just plain bad luck, eh? Learn to live with it, I say. Things suck even worse than they did historically - think of it as a test of your mettle.
War of the Roses. Wars of Religion. Many Chinese and Japanese events. Certain options in other countries, e.g., Sweden, Denmark, Russia, and so forth.
I agree. I think it's enough to shorten random revolt events and to flag them. It's rather unlikely you'll get a random event, and then have it stack with an historical event - quite unlikely, actually. If it does happen to you then consider it bad luck.
An additional option: in random revolt events, provide an option that allows a player to avoid RR at the cost of something else - stab, money, decentralization, whatever. So if a player *knows* that some pretty nasty historical events are coming up (e.g., you're playing China in just about any time period) you can go for option b or c to actively avoid the 'reverse stacking' that can't otherwise be dealt with.
Max
Ah, blast it. Sorry for the double post. If a moderator could delete this one I'd be obliged.
You can delete your own posts, if they aren't the beginning of a thread when you edit the post.
I agree that we should do that flagging that you proposed, the fix lies with the random revolt risk, not the historical events.
I agree that we should do that flagging that you proposed, the fix lies with the random revolt risk, not the historical events.
Sorry I thought the question was about 1.07, not the beta. For the beta you're right.
I agree that this is probably the best solution going. Ideally I would substitute alternate events for countries who are going through historic events (stability hit, fixed revolts) to replace the "vetoed" events. In fact I'm almost interested enough to help out with that.
Not quite. Wars of religion are all province revolt risk. I had thought that the Wars of the Roses were too, but you could well be right. China is an excellent example, and I suppose Japan has the same problem. Russia is right, but I don't remember Swedish events that work that way.
Two thoughts:
Stacking RR is not the worst thing; perhaps it could be a tool to have a bad situation go to worse (Timurids, Golden Horde etc) over time. If a nation is not dissappearing like it should, some countrysize triggered events could be added as contingencies to add some needed RR.
For nations where the intended level of RR is sufficiently high to preclude troop building, add a couple of events that add troops and take out cash. Let that be the A option, as the AI will most often take it and can support the additional troops, at least with present cheats.
Stacking RR is not the worst thing; perhaps it could be a tool to have a bad situation go to worse (Timurids, Golden Horde etc) over time. If a nation is not dissappearing like it should, some countrysize triggered events could be added as contingencies to add some needed RR.
For nations where the intended level of RR is sufficiently high to preclude troop building, add a couple of events that add troops and take out cash. Let that be the A option, as the AI will most often take it and can support the additional troops, at least with present cheats.
I actually am doing this one for my changes to the Timurids. RR starts out as an annoyance during war and the eventually blossoms into an all out problem. So I agree that its not the worst thing, if its planned for. However its definitely unplanned when RR is in random events.
Re: About removing RR...
As far as I know, RR still stacks in the beta. I'm pretty sure its a WaD.
As far as I know, RR still stacks in the beta. I'm pretty sure its a WaD.
Re: About removing RR...
Yep, RR stacks no matter what version you are using. So, whatever version we ultimately decide to use, the stacking RR is an issue.
How much editing is the flagging of events going to require. Since there are so many fewer random events than historical ones, would it not make more sense to try to fix things on that end, rather than edit the events of every country individually as well? Perhaps I'm not understanding how the flags will work. I will go back and reread the proposals.
Yep, RR stacks no matter what version you are using. So, whatever version we ultimately decide to use, the stacking RR is an issue.
How much editing is the flagging of events going to require. Since there are so many fewer random events than historical ones, would it not make more sense to try to fix things on that end, rather than edit the events of every country individually as well? Perhaps I'm not understanding how the flags will work. I will go back and reread the proposals.
Well a flag recognition trigger would have to be in the random events to check for the flag in the historical events.
Re: About removing RR...
If anything it's worse in the beta test version. Under 1.07 the difference between 10% RR and 20% RR is not that severe, either way you'll need a lot of large armies to crush the revolts that pop up every month. When the income loss comes into play the difference between 10% RR and 20% RR is prohibitive - it become impossible to recruit at all.
I'm compiling a list of RR events from the standard GC. I'm guessing it will be around 100 events, although about 1/2 of these are probably 12 months or less, and probably 1/4 could simply be modified to make the RR higher and the duration shorter. But it is a significant task. Add in the EEP events and you probably double it (not too sure exactly).
If anything it's worse in the beta test version. Under 1.07 the difference between 10% RR and 20% RR is not that severe, either way you'll need a lot of large armies to crush the revolts that pop up every month. When the income loss comes into play the difference between 10% RR and 20% RR is prohibitive - it become impossible to recruit at all.
I'm compiling a list of RR events from the standard GC. I'm guessing it will be around 100 events, although about 1/2 of these are probably 12 months or less, and probably 1/4 could simply be modified to make the RR higher and the duration shorter. But it is a significant task. Add in the EEP events and you probably double it (not too sure exactly).
Top Ten Monst Wanted
Ok here is the list of the ten longest historical events. The identity of some of these characters was a surprise to me (this in the Paradox version. I'd imagine the mods may be better as some of these guys will be gone!)
1) Timurids, Disintegration +8 for 588 months
2) Mughal Empire, Aurangzib's Religious Intolerance +5 for 480 months
2) Dai Viet, Mac and Trinh: +2 for 480 months
4) Bosnia, Bogamils +3 for 364 months
5) China, Fall of Ming +5 for 340 months
6) China, White Lotus +15 for 300 months
7) Russia, Duma +3 for 240 months
7) Russia, Absolutism +2 for 240 months
7) Russia, Precedence +1 for 240 months
7) China, Chingzhen suicide +20 for 240 months
7)Poland, Struggle for Royal Power +5 for 240 months
7) France, War of Religion (1621) +1 for 240 months
7) Sweden, Pietism +1 for 240 months
7) England Enclosure, +1 for 240 months
7) Mughal Empire, Akbar Tolerance -5 for 240 months
All of these present immense stack up problems. Akbar's tolerance is the worst, as it's supposed to be a good effect, but random events as they are it's liable to end up being very ugly. But others here are (I thinK) simple effects that, because of stack up, can become crippling.
WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE
Ok here is the list of the ten longest historical events. The identity of some of these characters was a surprise to me (this in the Paradox version. I'd imagine the mods may be better as some of these guys will be gone!)
1) Timurids, Disintegration +8 for 588 months
2) Mughal Empire, Aurangzib's Religious Intolerance +5 for 480 months
2) Dai Viet, Mac and Trinh: +2 for 480 months
4) Bosnia, Bogamils +3 for 364 months
5) China, Fall of Ming +5 for 340 months
6) China, White Lotus +15 for 300 months
7) Russia, Duma +3 for 240 months
7) Russia, Absolutism +2 for 240 months
7) Russia, Precedence +1 for 240 months
7) China, Chingzhen suicide +20 for 240 months
7)Poland, Struggle for Royal Power +5 for 240 months
7) France, War of Religion (1621) +1 for 240 months
7) Sweden, Pietism +1 for 240 months
7) England Enclosure, +1 for 240 months
7) Mughal Empire, Akbar Tolerance -5 for 240 months
All of these present immense stack up problems. Akbar's tolerance is the worst, as it's supposed to be a good effect, but random events as they are it's liable to end up being very ugly. But others here are (I thinK) simple effects that, because of stack up, can become crippling.
WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE
The entire list
Here is every single event that uses RR. A lot are short term and not a problem, but a lot are long term. I was quite surprised by the scope of the problem.
[/color]
Here is every single event that uses RR. A lot are short term and not a problem, but a lot are long term. I was quite surprised by the scope of the problem.
Code:
[color=skyblue]
Ak Koyunlu Persia resurrected +8 120 months
Bohemia WinterKing +12 60 months
Burgundy Marriage of Anne +4 48 months
Castille Civil War +5 48 months
China Zheng Ho +8 60 months
Emperor Capture +3 96 months
Famine +5 36 months2
Manchu Rebellion +5/+10 60 months
White Lotus +15/+10 300/240 months
Financial Crisis +10 60 months
Li Zechang +10/+5 12 months
Chingzhen suicide +20 240 months
Fall of Ming +5 120/340 months
Manchu takeover +5 60 months
End of Ming +10 120 months
White Lotus rebellion +6/+15 24 months
Celestial Order +6/+15 24 months
8 Trigrams +4/+10 24 months
Denmark Christian II +3 72 months
Vornedskab +3 120 months
Counts Feud +8/+5 48 months
'Stavnsbåndet' +3 120 months
Pietism +1 120 months AND +2 24 months
Landbo +4 120 months
England Lollards +3 36 months
Star Chamber +3 60 months
Enclosure +1 240 months
Jane Grey +6 36 months
Mary Queen of Scots +2 12 months
Parliamentary conflict +3/+1 96 months
Jacobite +3 24/60 months
Jacobite +5 24/60 months
Gunpowder Plot +5 12 months
France Voltaire +1 12 months
Permanent Taxes +2 60 months
Permanent Army +2 60 months
Revolt in France +3 48
War of Religion (1621) +1 240
Fronde +3/+2/+1 60 months
Bankruptcy +4 60 months
Machault +1/+3 60 months
Terror +3 18 months
Chouan +3 24 months
Austria Peasant Revolt +3 36 months
Josef II +4/+2 36 months
Reactionary Reforms +3 156 months
Netherlands Calvinism +3 12 months
Revolution +3 156 months
Hungary Religious Revolt +6 36 months
Inca Civil War +10 72 months
Lithuania Statute +6 12 months
Nemiem Captivabus +6 12 months
Protestantism +6 60
Calvinism +6 60
Religious Tolerance (x3) +10/+6/+4 24 months
Magnates +5 60 months
Librum Veto +3 60 months
Civil War +3/+6 24/80 months
Manchu Three Feudatories +10/+5 84 months
Empire of China +2 84 months
White Lotus +15/+6 24 months
Celestial Order +15/+6 24 months
Eight Trigrams +10/+4 24 months
Moscow Civil War +2/+5 12 months
Subednik +6 12 months
Novgorod Civil War +10/+8/+10 48 months
Papacy Bruno +2 12 months
Counter Reformation +3 216
Persia Abbas +4 48 months
Turmoil (x8) +5 48 months
Fragmentation (x8) +4 48 months
Poland Copernicus +3 12 months
Nemiem Captivabus +6 12 months
Conventiones Particulares +6 12 months
Statute of Piotrkow +2 24 months
Act of Union +6 24 months
Jesuit King +12 48 months
Struggle for Royal Power +1/-2/+5 120/120/240 months
Sucession 1697 +2/+6/+3 12 months
Dethronement +3 12 months
Portugal Joao I +3 12 months
Alfonsine Ordinances +5 12 months
Tavoras +3 60 months
Pombal 3 60 months
Liberal Opposition +5/+2 12 months
Russia Time of Troubles +8/+10/+10 72 months
Serfdom +3 163 months
Sobornoj Ulozjenije +3 36
Nikon +1 60 months
Rasin +6/+2 60 months
Absolutism +2 240 months
Precedence +1 240 months
Duma +3 240 months
Pugatchev +10 120 months (although it doesn't look that way!)
Scotland Highland Chiefs +3 156 months
Knox +4 120 months
Coveneant +2 12 months
Mary Stuart +6 36
Regents +3 24 months
Civil War (x2) +3 60 months
Spain Communeros +6/+2/+4 24/18/18 months
Moriscos +6 12 months
Golden Horde +10/+3 120 months
Sweden Swedenborg +1 12 months
Engelbrecht +4 12 months
End of Kalmar +4 36 months
Gustav Vasa +5 48 months
Dacke +4 24 months
Vasteras +3 120 months
Walloons +3 48 months
Mercantile Reforms +4 48 months
Oxentierna +5 36 months
Charles X +3/+4 6/24 months
Quarter reduction of Christiana +3 12 months
Catholic Maiden +3/+5 12/60 months
Charles XI +4 48 months
Arvid Horn +6 60 months
Pietism +1 240 months!!
Anjala +5 60 months
Agricultural reform +3/48 months
Timurids Disintegration +8/+5 588/12 months
Persia Resurrected 10 120 months
Ottomans Royal Bureaucracy: +6/+4 24/12 months
Decentralizing (x3): +6/+8 12/48 months
Army reform +4 48 months
Kosem Sultana +5 12 months
Tunisian rebellion +4 36 months
Tripolitan rebellion +4 36 months
Tulip Age +5/+4 36/12 months
Patrona Halil: +4 24 months
Army reform +4 48/24 months
Algerian rebellion +4 36 months
USA Federal Taxes: +2 64 months
Ayutthaya King Ekit'at +5 120 months
Bosnia Bogamils +3 364 months
Dai Viet Mac and Trinh: +2 480 months
Annam revolt: +8 12 months
Tay Son: +5/+2 36/12 months
Delhi Lodi: +5 12 months
Lodi Incompetence: +5 12 months
Mughal Empire Collapse +10 48 months
Panipat +5 12 months
Akbar Tolerance -5 240 months
Aurangzib's Religious Intolerance +5 480 months
Sucession 1707 +3/+5 12 months
Sucession 1712 +3/+5 12 months
Japan Shocho Ikki +15 12 months
Harima Ikki +15 12 months
The Eikyo war +10 24 months
Kakitsu Ikki +10 12 months
Hatakeyama +15 60 months
The Kyotoku War +5 12 months
Onin War +10 60 months
Onin War (another) +10 60 months
Onin War (another) +10/+15 60 months
Kaga Ikko-ikki +10 48 months
Expulsion +10 120 months
Vientiane Succession Crisis: +5 12 months
Vijayanagar City of Victory +10/+11 60 monthsYes, the problem is rampant, especially if we use events from each of the mods as well. I know for instance, that I gave Morocco some as well.
Although I think that things should be changed on a general level for all the the RR random events and historical events, I still think that the Timurids should be exempted from most of the RR random events except for like one or two +1, ones just in case the disintegration went really bad. This is only because, it gets really messy and hard to stay on top of, if I try to implement all the historic RR changes in bits and pieces. I think in this case, it would just be easier to have the Timurid ai have 'flags = { Timurid = yes } and then have the RR random events only trigger for nations without 'Timurid' as an active flag.
Although I think that things should be changed on a general level for all the the RR random events and historical events, I still think that the Timurids should be exempted from most of the RR random events except for like one or two +1, ones just in case the disintegration went really bad. This is only because, it gets really messy and hard to stay on top of, if I try to implement all the historic RR changes in bits and pieces. I think in this case, it would just be easier to have the Timurid ai have 'flags = { Timurid = yes } and then have the RR random events only trigger for nations without 'Timurid' as an active flag.
I think getting rid of all random +/- RR events is a good idea, at least until Paradox can fix the stacking bug.
P.S. Same thing happens with monarch rating adjustments. A country like Russia can get a +1 DIP event for 20 years and along comes a -4 DIP random event and they are stuck with a 20 year -3 adjustment to their monarch's DIP rating.
P.S. Same thing happens with monarch rating adjustments. A country like Russia can get a +1 DIP event for 20 years and along comes a -4 DIP random event and they are stuck with a 20 year -3 adjustment to their monarch's DIP rating.
*agrees* I don't like the random RR increases... Better to make them stab-hits and random revolts.
It is not a big, and is working as it was designed. So don't hold your breath for it to be changed.
I hate to give up RR in random events, as it is impossible to simulate it's effects without a lot of work, but given the scope of the problem I don't really see that it can be kept in a practical way.
I think that to simulate RR there need to be a LOT of revolts, and these absolutely MUST scale with country size.