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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

BeltarTheLion

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Mar 29, 2020
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About War Hole units. Most races have T1 spearmen beside chivalry. Exceptions:
1) Tigrans. T2 infantry unit which is not bad but Tigrans have Sun Guard the strongest T1 unit off all. So building of Marauders is questionable. Martial Arts is cool ability but as tank unit these black cats suck and city sieges require a lot of range attack units or flyers to clear the wall. The logical problem with a spearman available in Barracs it still needs to build War Hole to get access for the building which gives +1 rank for spearmen (Sorry I don't know what it's name in English).
Another problem is Sphinx which is Irregular (no synergy with class abilities except Rogue and +1 rank buildings) not very good in melee and can't fly on strategy map. Hard to use unit which makes the whole line of War Hole->Temple of Fire is not very attractive.
2) Goblins with T2 spearman. I wouldn't say that Butchers as strong as legendary Butchers from Shadow Magic but at least they're not T1.
3) Frostlings with T2 spearman. I don't like Frostlings but these henpecked guys look usefull at least for absorbing the damage.

Now I've a question why buid structure which costs 185 gold and produce T1 units? OK they can do damage to chivalry and flyers but they still T1. Tigran Sun Guards so strong because they have Solar Shield and that makes them really hard to kill. I think all this T1 spearmen should be produced in barracs.

Evangelists do not have Combat Healing any more

Isn't the whole Combat Healing ability overpowered? And Exalted having resurgence from the beginning isn't too much?
 

Rodmar18

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1) I see no real issue with trading a T1 Infantry for a T1 Pikeman at the Barracks (and getting a T2 Infantry at the War Hall). Tigrans and Shadow Elves (from the Shadow Realm expansion) have it, this just means that both factions have a cultural taste for pikes (as "lancers" people), and/or that they have very strong infantry units (that deserve, as you say, to be T2). Tigran Prowlers are not meant to tank anything, they are hunters and predators. So, you are right about the issue being "logical", but only logical and apparent. And the +1 rank building is hardly an issue as well; it simply means that a faction can line up pikemen faster, but not necessarily trained pikemen. The only oddity is then that the Arena is still tied to the Barracks, but you are not compelled to build it before the War Hall, actually.

2) The Sphinx benefits from all synergies that benefit Irregulars: class synergies, and ... specialization synergies. Don't overlook them.

3) About the difference between the Barracks and the War Hall, it can be seen as a cultural matter too. Some factions have swordsmen as their mainstream shock troops; indeed, most of them. Some other factions just don't, and their advanced, non mainstream troops deserve a War Hall to be build, in this case T1 or T2 Pikemen, T2 Infantry, and T2 Cavalry. You could figure another cavalry-based faction, that would build T1 Cavalry directly at the Barracks, and this wouldn't be shocking, even if their +1 rank building is built a long time after they can be produced.
 

Zaskow

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Currently for those two, it's 120 RP, needs to be raised to 160 RP

Do you look into the right place? They already have a correct price.

Trolls are removed from the defender sets of Great Farms (in effect replaced by Ogres)

Not needed, game takes set from main mod.

replace Evolved Serpents etc by different units to solve the MC-ed not kept after Evolve issue:
* summoned Serpents and Spiders stay as they are
* independent Serpents and Spiders are a different version: when they Evolve, they become "Mind-Controlled [XX]" which is a version with "Mind-Controlled" inherently => that means creating one version of the MCed Mature Shock Serpent, Mature Reed Serpent, Queen Vampire Spider, Queen Hunter Spider, Queen Dread Spider. The MCed Mature Serpents evolved into MCed King Serpent (so also 1 version of each to create).
* Mature Serpents need a 3rd version to put on independent sites: a version without "Mind-Controlled" but which evolves into MCed King Serpents. (actually this is also possible to just use the "Mind-Controlled" version on independent sites, as "Mind-Controlled" does not stack; it is just not ideal in terms of player immersion)
* so in total: 2 versions of Baby Serpents and Baby Spiders, 3 versions of Mature Serpents, 2 versions of Queen Spiders, 2 versions of King Serpents
===> this should also apply to roaming and Quest reward units. And a 2nd version is also required for other evolving units: Hatchlings, Initiates, Scoundrels, Baby Kraken. And for their evolved versions: all Draconian racial units, Storm Sisters, Knights, Exalted, Lesser Shadow Stalkers, Shadow Stalkers, Krakens...

What about nerfing Mind Control abilities again? Honestly, I'm tired from tweaking this mc shit... Especially such overcomplicated. Maybe just blocking an evolving for neutral animals...

Also for your notice AOW PF units haven't mind control abilities which let you to save the MCed unit in the unchanged form after a combat.
 
Last edited:

BeltarTheLion

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The Sphinx benefits from all synergies that benefit Irregulars: class synergies

1) There is no building which gives +1 rank to irregular.
2) Warlord has class improvements like giving martial arts and reducing cost for various types. And +15 HP for chivalry. But nothing for irregulars.
3) Archdruid has baffs for summoned, monsters and archers.
4) Sorcerer gives to supports stun ability so temple-units start to eliminate everything.
5) Teocrat has improvements for infantry, chivalry and especially supports
6) Dreadnaught has improvements for archers, machines and armored.
7) Necro has improvements for support and vampirism for spearmen infantry and irregulars. Congrats we finally found 1 improvement for irregulars.
8) And only Rogue has a lot of improvements which work for irregulars and even +1 Rank for them. But Rogue has overpowered Shadow Hunters. In fact it's a shame that only Warlord has racial T4 unit and everybody else have machines and summons. But the same elemental unit for all races as class T3...

Tigran Prowlers are not meant to tank anything

The point is not what they meant for (Shredders+bloodthirsty Prowlers in theory should do a lot of damage) but what they are really used for. The units in AoW3 are very fragile so it forces to rely heavily on long range units and cover them with something that will not die from a couple of hits.

About the difference between the Barracks and the War Hall, it can be seen as a cultural matter too.

I guess there was simple logic that War Hole gives chivalry and antichivalry with Tigrans as an exeption because they have no T1-infantry. Both chivalry and spearmen can't help a lot during a siege but chivalry (or unicorns if you have them) at least moves fast while T1 spearmen are mostly defensive units.

So I see nothing wrong to move all T1 pikes in barracks with +1 rank building.
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Please do not discuss balance proposals here, that's not the thread for that and it won't be taken into account for balance decisions.
You can discuss here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-the-pbem-tournament-continued.1121531/page-3 but I'd rather encourage you to open a specific thread on the general forum about whatever you want to discuss.

What about nerfing Mind Control abilities again? Honestly, I'm tired from tweaking this mc shit... Especially such overcomplicated.
I think we had this debate maybe 5 times already. We are not going to remove MC abilities.
And the thing here is not about MC but about the fact that you haven't found a solution to "transfer" properties from one unit to its evolved version. If "Mind Controlled" was transfered from Baby Serpents to Mature Serpents, there would not be a need for any tweaks. I do believe it is possible to do such transfers and I had written to you about it a long time ago, but I would need to spend some time actually trying to implement it. Unfortunately, too many other balance stuff to do to be able to find that time. Meanwhile, the current proposal is actually pretty simple and straightforward.

As for Rodmar's comments:
- I don't think any site defender will ever reach Champion (and not Elite) and Evolve, so no worry on that side. Even if that were the case, it's OK, it would get "Mind Controlled" and work as intended.
- enemy units... well there is no way we can deal with them. But it happens very rarely.
 

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I do believe it is possible to do such transfers and I had written to you about it a long time ago, but I would need to spend some time actually trying to implement it.

It's not possible coz the system counts evolved units as brand new ones. The transferred ability doesn't relate to the unit at all. It could be completely different.
 

Rodmar18

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and ... specialization synergies.
1) Explorer grants +1 Vision Range that doubles the RG bonus, Mountaineering, Forestry, Wetland Walking to Sphinges pretty early in game.
2) Partisan grants Guerrilla to this T3 unit.
3) Fire can doom one enemy to the Sphinx's ranged attack, and have these T3 units withstand the Hellfire (80% Fire Resistance at elite) and still be there to finish the work.

You go too fast over class synergies, reviewing only the empire upgrades, and not the battle or unit enchantments.
Archdruids, in particular, can make several Sphinges launch their solar ray twice a round.

Beside, the Sphinx is quite potent enough to not need much synergies:
- having a point blank ranged attack means that even blinded, they can launch it.
- it gets Fear Strike at elite.
- thanks to a Racial Governance, Tigran supports can restore all action and move points to other Tigrans.
- thanks to two Racial Governances, Sphinges can gain the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 ranks.




Another logical reason beyond the Prowler being a T2 unit is perhaps that the Cheetah is already a sub-Prowler (with Pounce and blood-related abilities). Having a frail T1 Prowler would have kind of doubled with the T1 Irregular.


@Hiliadan: evolving units evolve after exiting the battle when they reach elite (gold), but it sure would take many a heroe to level so much.
 

Hiliadan

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Things still to do for v1.31 (@Zaskow): provide feedback on 101 and 106 and the updated version of v1.31 with the TIgran icon and other stuff listed as "to fix" here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-mod-development-thread.1119915/post-27242720

EDIT:
And a new bug discovered:
- Fishing does not provide the +10 HP/turn to Embarked units
/EDIT

For the record (nothing do-able at this stage, except for "Mind Controlled" for which I opened a new thread):
- Scrying Eye Network should not reveal the center hexes of razed cities
This is unmoddable.

is it possible to give Exhausted (or any other property) to retreating units?
Apparently not do-able.

- Mark of Death: is it possible to cancel the effect if the caster retreats?
- Mark of Death again: what prevents MCed units and Combat Summon from retreating? Would it be possible to prevent all units from retreating after Mark of Death is cast?
The first one is not possible.
The second one could be do-able by adding a hidden battle enchantment preventing units from retreating.


what are the modding options for Guerilla Tactics? Can we switch on the "Lost 3 battle in a row" empire happiness malus for instance?
From what I've seen, there are two things:
- Guerrilla Tactics player property which is No Happiness Penalty on Retreat with no option
- Guerrilla ability and associated unit property which gives "Free retreat", with no option
So looks like we can't separately switch off the empiress happiness malus while keeping the individual happiness malus on.

- replace Evolved Serpents etc by different units to solve the MC-ed not kept after Evolve issue:
I'm opening a new thread about that: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...abilities-to-evolved-units-continued.1454352/

check if some abilities are still usable after coming back through Undying
I tested some abilities, here are the results:
- Dispel, Devour Corpse: still usable
- abilities on cooldown (Shadow Step, Throw Curse, Invoke Death): reset at maximum cooldown (not usable until x turns)
- once per battle abilities (Ghouling Strike, Raise Corpse, Cause Fear, Lesser Control Undead, Reanimate Undead) not usable

- Convert being usable when shapeshifted as a Dire Panther for heroes
I wasn't able to reproduce but it's weird because I experienced it myself once I think. I'm going to further investigate.

EDIT:
- Cannot Heal and Cannot Regenerate should not be stealable by Steal Enchantment
These are given through a global spell effect and the option to prevent global spell effect from being stealable does not exist. It's there only for tactical spell effect. So it is not possible to prevent them from being stolen...

101: "Wild Affinity (Wild Magic Master) gives +10 CP for Heart structures inside cities and Fortresses’ domain (was only cities’ domain)"
Wild Affinity has no visible option limiting it to cities so it would be hardcoded ad 101 is not feasible.
 
Last edited:

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Things to correct in v1.31v2:
- Fishing does not provide the +10 HP/turn to Embarked units (that's a vanilla bug) [new issue]
- Frost Aura (game concept) Unsure what that comes from. Might be good to remove it / hide it from ToW if we can understand where it comes from. Description to update: replace {frostauraDamage} and {frozenTime} by the values.
- Engineer's Flash Bomb apparently does not do the -25% MP if unsuccessful

- replace Evolved Serpents etc by different units to solve the MC-ed not kept after Evolve issue:
* summoned Serpents and Spiders stay as they are
* independent Serpents and Spiders are a different version: when they Evolve, they become "Mind-Controlled [XX]" which is a version with "Mind-Controlled" inherently => that means creating one version of the MCed Mature Shock Serpent, Mature Reed Serpent, Queen Vampire Spider, Queen Hunter Spider, Queen Dread Spider. The MCed Mature Serpents evolved into MCed King Serpent (so also 1 version of each to create).
* Mature Serpents need a 3rd version to put on independent sites: a version without "Mind-Controlled" but which evolves into MCed King Serpents. (actually this is also possible to just use the "Mind-Controlled" version on independent sites, as "Mind-Controlled" does not stack; it is just not ideal in terms of player immersion)
* so in total: 2 versions of Baby Serpents and Baby Spiders, 3 versions of Mature Serpents, 2 versions of Queen Spiders, 2 versions of King Serpents
===> this should also apply to roaming and Quest reward units. And a 2nd version is also required for other evolving units: Hatchlings, Initiates, Scoundrels, Baby Kraken. And for their evolved versions: all Draconian racial units, Storm Sisters, Knights, Exalted, Lesser Shadow Stalkers, Shadow Stalkers, Krakens...
About this one, I realized it might be easier to do it the other way round: duplicate the current unit and link it to production/summoning sets (only 1 link to make for each, more or less). And modify the original (which will be in all adventure sets and quests) to change its evolve target to the "Evolved" version. The Evolved versions of all those units have Mind Controlled.


EDIT: to check for v1.32:
- https://steamcommunity.com/app/226840/discussions/0/3114771735683840144/?tscn=1613033502 Harbours facing the wrong way and how to fix it
- Frostling Apprentices apparently not benefiting from RG4 military (Frost Weapons give Inflict Frostbite) (to be checked)
 
Last edited:

Rodmar18

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Portative Force Field Generator

Portative Force Field Generator gives 40% [fire/], 40% [frost/] and 40% [shock/] protection for this unit.​

1) Can be stolen by Steal Enchantments, which I find odd, given that the unit is said to be equipped with a gear that generates the force field. Is the gear stolen as well? Thankfully, stolen Force Field doesn't add duration to own Force Field, but I have yet to check if a longer stolen force field supersedes own field (new duration) or doesn't.

2) Transform into Dire Panther resets the ability which is deemed to be used only once per battle.
 

Hiliadan

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2) Transform into Dire Panther resets the ability which is deemed to be used only once per battle.
This is untrue, I tested it. Be more specific or don't report uncorrect things.

1) Can be stolen by Steal Enchantments, which I find odd
I doubt we will change that. Force Field is stealable too. Consider the Force Field generated is stolen and the equipment just generates it once, then it becomes a magical enchantment of its own will.
 

Rodmar18

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This is untrue, I tested it. Be more specific or don't report uncorrect things.

You're right, it's not "resets the ability", rather "causes the ability to reset" ;).

In general, I'd say that better a few false positives than taking the chance to miss a true bug, but this time, I'm not ringing the wrong bell.
As you seem to be beyond overconfidence, I guess that only a solid fact checking will work for you.

You can find a save in the \draft\feedback folder of the Shadow Realm DropBox. On next turn, the outpost of Oktalon, in the Shadow Realm, will be attacked. Grevara is leading the defenders, among whom a Tigran Mystic, and she has learned Force Field Generator Gear. As the fight is going to be pretty tough, you should have time enough to evidence the bug by yourself, and put more appropriate words onto it.