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Is it a good deal for the modder though? Read Valve's policy again. You can't collect any money from your mod until you've made around $100 or so. If your mod is $4 and your cut is 25%, then your share is $1 per sale (actually less, thanks Uncle Sam). If your $4 mod is downloaded 90 times, it's the same as it being downloaded 0 times. Also, don't be too quick to assume that it'll be easy to get to that $100 benchmark. I downloaded the last Game of Thrones mod version a little while back and the host said it has been downloaded something like 2,200 times. That's the most popular mod for a PDS game, based on an incredibly popular franchise, being offered for free. How many downloads should we assume modders will get for mods that cost money, have zero quality assurance guaranteed, and have significantly less content? If anything, it'll be the modders themselves who are left behind.
I didn't know about that restriction, but it does make sense for games with greater audiences. It must be a way to prevent scamming, I mean imagine all the legal mess they have to go through when removing a paid mod and having to get all that money refunded.

I understand Valve getting a cut, if the cut is 5-10%. But they don't get a "cut" , they get the majority of the pie, split with the developer. As for the developer getting a "cut" at all, they already got paid, when they sold the license to the consumer. Why do they need to get paid twice? What serv ice did they do to deserve additional compensation? Valve at least hosted the mod on their workshop site. What did the developer do, that they did not already get paid for in the initial purchase?
You paid to play their game and now you are making money off of it. Those are two entirely different things. The service the publisher gives you is the ability to make money off your mods in the first place. And I am not going to pretend that I am at all qualified to say what is and what isn't an acceptable cut, I'm just trusting Johan on his word.
 
I didn't know about that restriction, but it does make sense for games with greater audiences. It must be a way to prevent scamming, I mean imagine all the legal mess they have to go through when removing a paid mod and having to get all that money refunded.


You paid to play their game and now you are making money off of it. Those are two entirely different things. The service the publisher gives you is the ability to make money off your mods in the first place. And I am not going to pretend that I am at all qualified to say what is and what isn't an acceptable cut, I'm just trusting Johan on his word.
Really, with all due respect to Johan, I trust actions, not words. The actions this company makes from here on out will speak for themselves, I don't give a darn what they say.
 
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Successful companies rarely apply morals or ethics to business decisions.


Guess you still need to learn a lot on how business is done, dear Padawan. Talk with some and ask them how many time they cheated their suppliers and clients and how much time they managed to survive doing so... Cheated consumers don't come back unless you have a huge control over a given market, and cheated suppliers tend to raise their prices or stop working with you, unless you have control over something they deeply need. Business is based on relations. Cheating is not a way to make business. So most succesfull businessmen don't cheat (they might bend the rules sometimes, like everyone). So morals and ethics are there. It's just that it's melted trough all the other things.
 
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Guess you still need to learn a lot on how business is done, dear Padawan. Talk with some and ask them how many time they cheated their suppliers and clients and how much time they managed to survive doing so... Cheated consumers don't come back unless you have a huge control over a given market, and cheated suppliers tend to raise their prices or stop working with you, unless you have control over something they deeply need. Business is based on relations. Cheating is not a way to make business. So most succesfull businessmen don't cheat (they might bend the rules sometimes, like everyone). So morals and ethics are there. It's just that it's melted trough all the other things.

Good points, however

1)Steam does have a near monopoly - ie, huge control over the market
2)Laws don't always comply with ethics. To take an exagerated example, would it have been legal for Valve/Bethesda to start charging 5$ for every mod download, and take 100% of the revenue? Yes. Would it have been ethical? No.
 
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I really don't understand why so many people on this forum actually think this is a good idea. What happens to mods where the owner doesn't want to sell his mod, will somebody else sell the same mod instead and if nobody is complaining get full ownership. What if the mod developper doesn't feel like upgrading his / her mod to the latest gameversion, not necessary saying he will never update it again anymore. You never know what happens or could happen in a person's life that prevents him from updating a mod he makes, will some golddigger take over and sell his mod/idea and probably large portions of the code, to me that would be the biggest issue, and will modders that do get paid update all the time, even when disaster strikes?.... for example: they lost the original code and got to rewrite the whole mod or they end up in the hospital for a couple of weeks or even worse a death in the family
 
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Pete0714,

I have to strongly disagree with your view! As a modder myself I would be happy to give some of the money from the sales of a mod to Paradox! They made the game, they support the game, they advertise the game, and if they let me promote the mod (that is for sale) on their forum (if big enough its' own sub-forum), if they support the modders (add features, give some tech support) and help police the blatant stealing of modders work (sure one modder will see what another modders does and use the ideas, but that is different than downloading it and repackaging with a new name a selling it) and if someone makes a sub-mod of another mod it still requires the original mod (value added to the original mod) . If they were to do these things I would want to give them some of the money from the sales! 75% does seem a bit high, but I don't know the industry standard for third party DLCs. So don't stop playing Paradox's games if they allow me to sell a mod!

I know I prefer to make it a DLC that has a bit more company support.

Not all my mods are equal! Some I would not want to sell & one is based on a TV show which I couldn't sell. I personally don't think all mods would become paid mods. And I would like to see some sort of approval system (which may mean they should just be third party DLCs). And if there is not an approval system it will be hard to get people to buy mods that don't have a strong reputation for quality.
 
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Why do Doctors need a licence to practice medicine? "You can avoid victimization by bad Doctors, but simply not participating in health care!"

Again you're just making your argument way more convoluted with these irrelevant analogies. This particular one is irrelevant because healthcare is a necessary service that everybody needs so you're really stretching here. We are talking about video game modifications here. Luxuries. I would've been more comfortable if you analogized my argument to saying "You can avoid victimization by dubious unlicensed doctors (modders) by not dealing with unlicensed doctors! Heck, it's just common sense to not deal with an unlicensed doctor!" You would only deal with such a doctor if there was definitely no possible risk to you (downloading a mod for free)

you're claiming that not even YOU have ANY faith in any of these paid mods on Steam

Well yes, I've made it quite clear throughout this topic that I don't intend to participate in this market because there's so much risk involved, hence none of this will affect me really, so I don't have strong feelings about the issue! That was my very first post in this topic and I've been very consistent in this position so I don't see how I've "conceded" anything. So once again, I have no idea what you're going for here! You're just leading me in circles to no end and honestly, I'm at the end of my rope with you.

Look, I'll just lay out my position and we can leave it at that. I don't have very strong feelings on the prospect of PI participating in this market because I probably wouldn't participate myself as a consumer, so it wouldn't affect me. I think PI does a good enough job keeping their games balanced and introducing fresh gameplay mechanics. But as a spectator watching the Skyrim workshop pan out, mod monetization looks like a huge trainwreck. There's instances of modders charging for mod-bundles that include work by other people, details that you figure Valve would've ironed out definitely beforehand. It would be nice for people/teams that put a lot of work into good content to make a deserved dollar(I would've paid a few bucks for the Death and Taxes mod from EU3), but right now there's just tons of abuse and problems. And even if you fix the abuse, there's still people who will pull stunts like bundling small mods into a single more expensive download and generally finding ways to get the extra dollar out of you in a legitimate way, thats just business. More importantly though, I don't see why consumers would be greatly compelled to buy mods when theres still a lot of free content in the workshop and theres other free sites to access user-created content (nexus for Bethesda games, PI forums for PI games, etc). I don't think Valve has the kind of control over any sort of mod market that it has over video game distribution. And then you consider how chaotic the Skyrim workshop looks right now, just seems overall really poorly thought out by Valve. They're generating such a negative reaction and I speculate that the mods aren't selling very well, I doubt this will catch on anytime soon.

AND there's the question of how copyright applies here and I don't even want to touch that can of worms.

Think that should clarify my position pretty easily for you Jia Xiu...if you still think I'm wrong about the current Skyrim workshop being a train-wreck or abuse in the market or the strong opposition from the community... I don't know what to tell you.
 
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Good points, however

1)Steam does have a near monopoly - ie, huge control over the market
2)Laws don't always comply with ethics. To take an exagerated example, would it have been legal for Valve/Bethesda to start charging 5$ for every mod download, and take 100% of the revenue? Yes. Would it have been ethical? No.


(1) True, for now. Medium term, expect Steam to lose ground doing so. What makes you hold a market, is the value-added you have. Steam offers a customers base, it's basicaly it's value-added. So Steam is a retailer. Like Walmart, or Target, or EB Game, or others. That's not a high value since it's not linked to something it controls or linked to some specific know-how. Just a dominant position. For instance, Target lost over 2 billions $ when they failed to secure their position in Canada and closed every stores after 2 years. A total rout. Retailing is a risky business per se. Take Microsoft on the other hand. Dominant position, but linked to value-added content. So they combine dominance & content. Their content makes them retain their dominance. Their position is, over a longer term, stronger. It explains (in short I agree), why they are still strong. Retailers's position is weaker.

(2) Not ethical, I agree. Abuse of dominance obviously). It reminds me of the failed Microsoft attempt to control webaccess with mandatory Internet Explorer - Windows approach which led to the pursuit that cost them a lot of money (billions if I remember correctly) that forced them to be forced to grant access to other softwares trough Windows. If I were Steam, I would read carefully the US laws and EU ones on market behavior regulations. They are slow to react, but once they do, it's painful like hell. The powers granted by the set of laws is impressive. It's interesting to read.


P.S. On a side-notes, do modders have other options than to go trough Steam ? Honestly I don't know as I did not dig that yet.
 
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I downloaded the last Game of Thrones mod version a little while back and the host said it has been downloaded something like 2,200 times. That's the most popular mod for a PDS game.

Well BICE for HoI3 TFH gets many more downloads than that and my sub-mod got about 600 this last week alone. So if that is in the first 2 or 3 days of a version release that is a lot, but if that has been out for more than a month it is not very much.
 
I know I prefer to make it a DLC that has a bit more company support.
But with company support also comes company expectations. I think for some people theres value in only being accountable to themselves. If their mod fails then it fails and its unfortunate, but at least they don't have a big company boss grilling them for it. They move on with their reputation mostly intact. I think the mod market could fill that gap where a mod is big and good enough that the makers deserve some compensation, but isn't big enough that a company is willing to invest in it and put their own stamp of approval on it.
 
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Again you're just making your argument way more convoluted with these irrelevant analogies. This particular one is irrelevant because healthcare is a necessary service that everybody needs so you're really stretching here. We are talking about video game modifications here. Luxuries. I would've been more comfortable if you analogized my argument to saying "You can avoid victimization by dubious unlicensed doctors (modders) by not dealing with unlicensed doctors! Heck, it's just common sense to not deal with an unlicensed doctor!" You would only deal with such a doctor if there was definitely no possible risk to you (downloading a mod for free) Well yes, I've made it quite clear throughout this topic that I don't intend to participate in this market because there's so much risk involved, hence none of this will affect me really, so I don't have strong feelings about the issue! That was my very first post in this topic and I've been very consistent in this position so I don't see how I've "conceded" anything. So once again, I have no idea what you're going for here! You're just leading me in circles to no end and honestly, I'm at the end of my rope with you Look, I'll just lay out my position and we can leave it at that. I don't have very strong feelings on the prospect of PI participating in this market because I probably wouldn't participate myself as a consumer, so it wouldn't affect me. I think PI does a good enough job keeping their games balanced and introducing fresh gameplay mechanics. But as a spectator watching the Skyrim workshop pan out, mod monetization looks like a huge trainwreck. There's instances of modders charging for mod-bundles that include work by other people, details that you figure Valve would've ironed out definitely beforehand. It would be nice for people/teams that put a lot of work into good content to make a deserved dollar(I would've paid a few bucks for the Death and Taxes mod from EU3), but right now there's just tons of abuse and problems. And even if you fix the abuse, there's still people who will pull stunts like bundling small mods into a single more expensive download and generally finding ways to get the extra dollar out of you in a legitimate way, thats just business. More importantly though, I don't see why consumers would be greatly compelled to buy mods when theres still a lot of free content in the workshop and theres other free sites to access user-created content (nexus for Bethesda games, PI forums for PI games, etc). I don't think Valve has the kind of control over any sort of mod market that it has over video game distribution. And then you consider how chaotic the Skyrim workshop looks right now, just seems overall really poorly thought out by Valve. They're generating such a negative reaction and I speculate that the mods aren't selling very well, I doubt this will catch on anytime soon. AND there's the question of how copyright applies here and I don't even want to touch that can of worms. Think that should clarify my position pretty easily for you Jia Xiu...if you still think I'm wrong about the current Skyrim workshop being a train-wreck or abuse in the market or the strong opposition from the community... I don't know what to tell you.

You can claim every point that you have no response to is irrelevant if you want. Just like editing my posts, dismissing points you can't respond to doesn't make them less valid. Legitimate business people use something called "business licences." They have these things to ensure the public that they're legitimate and know what they're doing.

I agree that it's a terrible idea. YOU agree that it's a terrible idea. So why have you spent so much of today arguing with me? Because you (for strange reasons) seem to believe that terrible ideas should be introduced into the market whenever possible. You seem to be more angry at me, personally, than at anything I'm saying here. There's a right way to disagree with someone and there's a wrong way. The wrong way involves editing people's posts and then claiming they never said the things you censored out. Instead of admitting you made a mistake, you just doubled-down and kept doing it.

You have this huge paragraph about why you think this is a terrible mess, and that's supposed to convince anyone that this is a good idea? In case you forgot, you were clearly arguing that anything bad that happens to a consumer is the consumer's fault.
 
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Not going to engage you and let you lead me on a wild troll chase again, just going to point out that you're misrepresenting my argument again so nobody ELSE gets the wrong idea...at this point you can think whatever you want because I can't take you any further.

you (for strange reasons) seem to believe that terrible ideas should be introduced into the market whenever possible.

I've never endorsed such a market for mod-monetization. I stated that this idea has brought nothing but bad news for Valve, it won't catch on, its being heavily abused, and that I don't intend to participate in this market. In your eyes, this means that I'm trying to

convince anyone that this is a good idea
 
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Pete0714,

I have to strongly disagree with your view! As a modder myself I would be happy to give some of the money from the sales of a mod to Paradox! They made the game, they support the game, they advertise the game, and if they let me promote the mod (that is for sale) on their forum (if big enough its' own sub-forum), if they support the modders (add features, give some tech support) and help police the blatant stealing of modders work (sure one modder will see what another modders does and use the ideas, but that is different than downloading it and repackaging with a new name a selling it) and if someone makes a sub-mod of another mod it still requires the original mod (value added to the original mod) . If they were to do these things I would want to give them some of the money from the sales! 75% does seem a bit high, but I don't know the industry standard for third party DLCs. So don't stop playing Paradox's games if they allow me to sell a mod!

I know I prefer to make it a DLC that has a bit more company support.

Not all my mods are equal! Some I would not want to sell & one is based on a TV show which I couldn't sell. I personally don't think all mods would become paid mods. And I would like to see some sort of approval system (which may mean they should just be third party DLCs). And if there is not an approval system it will be hard to get people to buy mods that don't have a strong reputation for quality.
By your logic though, the idea of any help they offer in the way of support deserves additional compensation, leads down a slippery slope of the right to charge for everything they do. Want tech support? Pay a fee for access to it. Want forums? Need a fee for that. Want multiplayer? Guess we need a subscription model. Want patches? Guess we need a subscription model for that. While it sounds like hyperbole, the logic of paying extra, directly or indirectly, for every additional bit of support beyond the initial release of the game is slowly creeping its way into the industry. Paradox's DLC model is already a way to pay for that support of patches, they themselves have said that. How many times do you need to pay developers for the same thing?
 
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Not going to engage you and let you lead me on a wild troll chase again, just going to point out that you're misrepresenting my argument again so nobody ELSE gets the wrong idea...at this point you can think whatever you want because I can't take you any further. I've never endorsed such a market for mod-monetization. I stated that this idea has brought nothing but bad news for Valve, it won't catch on, its being heavily abused, and that I don't intend to participate in this market. In your eyes, this means that I'm trying to

Uh-huh. Anything that you can't respond to MUST be "trolling." The fact that you fully admit now that you're responding just to change how others might think of you is a straight concession to what I said earlier. You're just posting to save face.

You argued earlier that it's the consumer's fault if they get burned by bad modders. Would you like me to quote your posts for you? I can quote in their entirety. Unlike you, I don't need to hide from others' arguments.
 
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By your logic though, the idea of any help they offer in the way of support deserves additional compensation, leads down a slippery slope of the right to charge for everything they do. Want tech support? Pay a fee for access to it. Want forums? Need a fee for that. Want multiplayer? Guess we need a subscription model. Want patches? Guess we need a subscription model for that. While it sounds like hyperbole, the logic of paying extra, directly or indirectly, for every additional bit of support beyond the initial release of the game is slowly creeping its way into the industry. Paradox's DLC model is already a way to pay for that support of patches, they themselves have said that. How many times do you need to pay developers for the same thing?

This.

We *already* pay for all they offer. This is like saying I should give 75% of the money I make to my university because without them, I wouldn't have the skills to succeed. Uh, sure. University is important - that's why I pay them thousands of dollars while studying there. And that's it. I'm not going to pay 75% of my money to my university, or the company that made my car because it allows me to reach my workplace, or the company that makes clothes that I buy because I can't go to work naked.

When I paid for the game, I didn't just pay for the game itself. I paid for access to the steam workshop. I paid for the right to mod it. That's part of the reason why I bought it on steam and not say, on Origin, even though Origin has faster downloads. All they're adding is giving me the right to sell it - something that takes no effort whatsoever.
 
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Can you imagine Better UI 2.3 being behind a paywall? It's essential for me, I couldn't play EU4 without it, I'd give up after ten hours, the original font simply puts too much strain on my eyes. Right now I played over a thousand. I can't say the idea is unfair, but I wouldn't pay for mods, no buts.

For me there are two types of mods. First, the additional content, if you complete the game, but you want more of it. New quests for Skyrim for example. Monetizing this type of modification for me is easier to accept. I still wouldn't pay for it, because it's most likely not of the same quality as the original game and it will stick out like a sore thumb. Another reason is that I don't like gameplay changing mods. Again, for Skyrim they're easier to accept, because they add new content on top of original one, meanwhile any new gameplay changing feature in EU4 will influence the original stuff. In any case, monetizing these kinds of mods redefines mods completely. Now they're not the additional content you can get if you're done with the base game, now they're shady DLCs of lower quality. Those DLCs one simply avoids. I am definitely not the target customer for this type of mods, there is not enough motivation for me to pay for them.

The second type of mod is the kind of mod that fixes something interface related and the like, nothing influencing gameplay in any way. Better UI 2.3 for Europa for example. This... Suffice to say this stirs some negative feelings within me. These mods should not exist in the first place. It is the developers responsibility to satisfy the customer with how the game runs. And if a random dude can make a simple mod that improves the game by so very much, while an entire studio of professionals who created the game in the first place couldn't do it, then shame on those devs. To clarify, trying to satisfy everyone is futile, but there are mods that undeniably should have been part of the game from the beginning, such as items being sorted in the inventory in Skyrim. These mods give a game another chance to shine and satisfy the player. In a way, putting in the effort and sacrificing the time into researching these mods, downloading and testing them is paying on top of what the base game costed. So why should I be investing more money again in a game for which I already paid in order to give it another chance? There are mods that reshape things that didn't need reshaping, without changing gameplay, just for the sake of looking cooler or fitting with something the mod creator had imagined. These mods fit in with the first group of mods I spoke about. I personally have no interest in reskins and such, I dislike skins in DotA (I do have my reasons, but this is not the place to discus this).

I'm not the most generous customer which is tied to the unfortunate size of my wallet, but I'm certainly loyal if the game deserves it. I recommended EU4 to a bunch of friends who bought it and also enjoyed it. I played for over one thousand hours, and I realize I am still a newbie in comparison to some people. It's a brilliant game, but none of this would have happened, it wouldn't matter how brilliant EU4 is if not for the god damned (blessed) Better UI mod for which I would not pay. Even if it costed less than a dollar. There is no guarantee that the mod will be of acceptable quality, that it will work and keep working on as intended with other mods or after the base game is updated. Once you set your mind to patching whatever bugs you with mods, you have to get through a lot of mods, testing how each one works and how combining them works if it does at all. Well, if mods were costing money, this would be the equivalent of throwing coins into a pitch black hole just to see what happens.

With games costing as little as they do and there being countless new crappy and interesting ones these days, I'd rather try out a whole new game, whether it's on PC or iOS rather than spend five bucks on an uncertain mod. Prices bellow a single dollar won't help to convince me. Instead of looking attractive, they will look just as discouraging. However, I do like the idea of donations, if you feel like it and you can afford it, knock yourself out. Rewarding someone when he deserves it can be satisfying for people on both ends. Ohh and Steam taking 75% cut is plain wrong.

With all that said I just can't say monetizing mods is wrong, but if this comes to be... To my eye, they will be as invisible as MMOs with subscription fee. If I had enough money to gamble it away, I would have gone to any casino rather than Steam. This pretty much sums it all up.

EDIT:
This has already been posted in the other thread about this but it deserves to be spread here too

Lovely^_^.

EDIT 2:
I could have written this in a new post, but I'd like to contain my full opinion on this subject in just one post...

I did not mention the long term effects of this, but the future seems grim. Publishers almost begging and tricking people to suck off just a little more money. As if games were made on assembly lines in factories. The quicker content is made, the faster it can be shoved down customers throat. It's terrible, and now it has become a trend to sell separate parts of the game - that the customer is already entitled to - right after selling the pseudo-whole game. Mods costing money stretches that money grabbing boundary one step further. If we get used to this, then what stops them from forcing us to pay for the feature of settings or even paying each time we changing something like a sound slider in games' settings? Sticking "purchase" button everywhere is really agitating, almost as if there was this intensely greedy gaze looking down on you, nagging you to buy whatever. Every financial model seems to be turning into the same pay-at-every-step model. It may or many not be as dramatic as my description makes it seem, but it rubs me the wrong way.

What is dramatic however is the power that Steam wields. They have effective monopoly on PC gaming. If they say jump, everyone jumps. It's a "paradox", they're getting more users and games, because they have a lot of users and games. If they do paid mods, everyone who can will follow their lead, but since they did it first and they're biggest service provider, they will no doubt claim the biggest market share of mods. Steam becoming even more omnipresent is bad news for everyone but Valve. This potentially leads to even more, audacious (as if the 75% wasn't enough) money grabbing. One could ask how is half the nasty stuff they do even legal? Well it's definitely morally grey at best. Although I can't say whether paid mods are right or wrong, I can say that nothing good will come of this.

If I was part of Valve, by now I'd be moisturising my hands after rubbing them against each other so much. Truly splendid idea, I can already see the swollen coffers.

Oh man, I keep adding a lot of words! It was a wall of text to begin with. By the time I exhaust my opinion on the subject at hand, this post will turn into a book with chapters and all :).
 
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