Paid mods on Steam

[PanzerCorps]

I wonder what would happen if all Valve employees just decided to not come into work next week. No technical staff to look after hardware or their network, no support staff to handle questions, no nothing. Lets see how many people are downloading any content if Valve indeed decides to do, as you say they're currently doing, no additional work.

Listen, I don't think you get it. The steam workshop wasn't a charity. Valve always hosted it and still hosts it for games with no charged modding. All the work you know they have to do, they're doing that. Why? Because they love us so?

NO. Because *we*, the customers, pay for it. When we buy games off steam, we're giving Valve money to do just that. The workshop is something I'm already paying for and I would hate to have to pay twice

 

[Dnote]

This doesn't bother me, if the mod is worth it I don't mind paying, but with PDS games, I'm more than capable of modding them myself if I feel the need to.

What does concern me though is the level of support. In the case of PDS games which are constantly being patched/updated, mods continuously need to be fixed as well. What happens if I purchase a mod, it breaks with the next patch and the modder decides to not fix it?

 

[Jia Xu]

The main issue for me is quality assurance. Paradox Interactive (presumably) has a business licence. It's run by people who are aware of basic laws regarding the operation of businesses and laws regarding advertising. I feel safe purchasing content with Paradox Interactive's label attached to it.

Modders are benevolent volunteers. They're making content out of the goodness of their hearts, but that changes once modding is monetized. Suddenly those modders have an ethical (and possibly legal) obligation to support their own content. If I make a mod that breaks after Johan drops an official patch on us, how many paying customers are going to be satisfied when I say that I'm retired as an excuse?

Also, please consider the social stress this is going to place on modders. Most people seem oblivious to it, but I've certainly noticed that PDS employees take a lot of abuse around here. Every time something goes wrong, frustrated players attack PDS employee's professionalism, good faith, and sometimes even character. "Johan is balancing this game for multiplayer because he hates us! Wiz dropped a broken patch before Christmas because he is greedy! Groogy won't update the converter because he is lazy!," and so forth. PDS employees are hardened battle veterans of the message boards, and they have access to PR people who can help them if things get out of hand. Modders almost certainly have no experience dealing with a tidal wave of angry customers who feel like they've been cheated out of their money (regardless of whether their complaints are actually justified). I expect that most will buckle or vanish under such pressure.

When PDS breaks something, I have no doubt in my mind that they can fix it. Has anyone considered that modders who may not be the best at modding may not actually know how to fix their mods? Just last week, I was bored, and I downloaded a cute vampire mod for CK2. One of the first things I noticed is that the custom crusade CB was 100% non-functional. I later checked out the topics for it on the workshop and the modder didn't know how to fix it. How long until the Quick Questions/Answers topics in the modding sub-forums are being used for free labour to repair paid content?

In the end, I don't see much coming out of this other than a lot of destroyed reputations.

 

[ABookshelf]

The workshop is something I'm already paying for and I would hate to have to pay twice

Listen, I don't think you get it. You don't have to pay twice unless a modder decides to charge money for his work, but that's out of Bethesda or Valve's control.

Modders almost certainly have no experience dealing with a tidal wave of angry customers who feel like they've been cheated out of their money (regardless of whether their complaints are actually justified). I expect that most will buckle or vanish under such pressure.

I think this is a situation a modder willingly puts themself into by choosing to charge for their content. Modders need to be mindful and think about the risk involved with putting a price on their content.

 

[PanzerCorps]

Listen, I don't think you get it. You don't have to pay twice unless a modder decides to charge money for his work, but that's out of Bethesda or Valve's control.

Oh really?

So modders are just choosing to donate 75% of their revenue to Bethesda and Valve, is that right? Didn't think so.

I'm okay with paying mod makers. I don't like it at all but it's not the end of the world. But this isn't our discussion. The discussion is why 75% of my money should go to a company for a service I have already paid for when buying the game.

 

[ABookshelf]

The discussion is why 75% of my money should go to a company for a service I have already paid for when buying the game.

25% is a pretty good cut as far as game content development goes.

 

[Dnote]

Oh really?

So modders are just choosing to donate 75% of their revenue to Bethesda and Valve, is that right? Didn't think so.

I'm okay with paying mod makers. I don't like it at all but it's not the end of the world. But this isn't our discussion. The discussion is why 75% of my money should go to a company for a service I have already paid for when buying the game.

Because Bethesda own the exclusive business/commercial rights for the game. Anyone who wants to earn money from it must pay Bethesda for that right.

As for the percentage, that is up to Bethesda.

 

[Flush62]

I have made a few mods for EU4 but I would not charge for them, as I really think that what I have made isn't worth money, it's just a hobby and I think that people who already bought the game are entitled to downloading if they want. I like to keep my mods working and up to date, but recently I've encountered an issue where some people just cant get my mod working and It would suck if they bought the mod and suddenly it wont appear in the EU4 Launcher. And what happens if you purchase a mod which has features that are then implemented into the full game? The mod creator might lose money (and technically would the developer) and the consumer would have wasted their money on a now obsolete mod.

I am also a consumer of mods too, I've downloaded plenty of mods for Cities Skylines, but if they suddenly asked me to pay for them I would instantly unsubscribe. Its not that I don't like the mod creators, it's simply that I would not want to pay for simple quality of life user created features if I've already bought the full retail game. I really like the mod which allows you to toggle traffic lights, but if the creator asked for $1 to use the mod I would just do without this feature.

 

[PanzerCorps]

Because Bethesda own the exclusive business/commercial rights for the game. Anyone who wants to earn money from it must pay Bethesda for that right.

As for the percentage, that is up to Bethesda.

Yes, that is the legal argument. I am aware they have no legal obligation not to force every mod to cost 5$ and take 100% of that. I'm talking morals here.

 

[Jia Xu]

I think this is a situation a modder willingly puts themself into by choosing to charge for their content. Modders need to be mindful and think about the risk involved with putting a price on their content.

Be mindful how? Are modders obligated to take a degree in marketing or business before publishing their mods? You need to realize that most modders are going to be completely ignorant when it comes to selling something to the public. They don't have access to public relations and marketing experts, like PDS does. You know what else most modders don't have? Lawyers. How do you think the average modder would react to some very over-emotional person filing a civil lawsuit against them? You've underestimated the U.S. legal system, I think. Most modders don't have the education needed to make informed decisions on these kinds of issues. It's like giving someone without a high school education access to uranium and tasking that person with creating safe, nuclear power.

 

[Dnote]

Yes, that is the legal argument. I am aware they have no legal obligation not to force every mod to cost 5$ and take 100% of that. I'm talking morals here.

Successful companies rarely apply morals or ethics to business decisions.

 

[PanzerCorps]

Successful companies rarely apply morals or ethics to business decisions.

That's true. Doesn't mean it should be okay or we shouldn't criticize it.

 

[ABookshelf]

Be mindful how? Are modders obligated to take a degree in marketing or business before publishing their mods? You need to realize that most modders are going to be completely ignorant when it comes to selling something to the public.

Then they shouldn't sell something. They shouldn't declare that their content is worth x amount of dollars. If they blindly decide with no sort of experience in pricing that their content is worth 25 dollars and aren't ready to back that claim up with appropriate support for their product, then they might learn a lesson.

Your analogy would be accurate if the high school person was given the option of walking away. Modders are not being forced to put a price on their content.

 

[Jia Xu]

Then they shouldn't sell something. They shouldn't declare that their content is worth x amount of dollars. If they blindly decide with no sort of experience in pricing that their content is worth 25 dollars and aren't ready to back that claim up with appropriate support for their product, then they might learn a lesson. Your analogy would be accurate if the high school person was given the option of walking away. Modders are not being forced to put a price on their content.

Again, you're making the incredibly naive assumption that every modder is educated enough to make informed decisions on this front. They are not. What lesson are they going to learn from getting paid for broken content? The lesson of I can sell a broken product and keep the money? The only people suffering consequences here would be the paying consumer.


P.S. It's okay to disagree with my posts when you read them. You don't need to revenge-disagree one of my posts every time I vote disagree on one of yours. Hope that helps.

 

[ABookshelf]

Again, you're making the incredibly naive assumption that every modder is educated enough to make informed decisions on this front. They are not. What lesson are they going to learn from getting paid for broken content? The lesson of I can sell a broken product and keep the money? The only people suffering consequences here would be the paying consumer.

Well first you were arguing that modders are potential victims of trying to monetize their content, that they might soon learn the harsh reality of marketing a product when an over-emotional person files a civil lawsuit. Now you're saying modders are going to become the money-grubbers that try to swindle the customers that you said before were going to slap them with unexpected civil lawsuits? You're just rambling on and on buddy and I have no idea what you're getting at.

Also you keep trying to paint a picture that modders are being forced into this situation of monetizing their content without having the proper training. But the modders are the ones who make that choice.

 

[Jia Xu]

Well first you were arguing that modders are potential victims of trying to monetize their content, that they might soon learn the harsh reality of marketing a product when an over-emotional person files a civil lawsuit. Now you're saying modders are going to become the money-grubbers that try to swindle the customers that you said before were going to slap them with unexpected civil lawsuits? You're just rambling on and on buddy and I have no idea what you're getting at.

Also you keep trying to paint a picture that modders are being forced into this situation of monetizing their content without having the proper training. But the modders are the ones who make that choice.

Yes, all kinds of disasters are possible! I mentioned that in my many posts, of which you only quote a fraction of, presumably because you have no response to the bulk of my arguments.

Something you definitely didn't want to talk about was how Paradox Interactive needs a business licence to sell its products to the public. The purpose of a business licence is to reassure the public that the people attempting to sell you products are legitimate and know what they are doing. There are going to the malicious modders looking to get a quick buck for a sloppy product (this already happens on Kickstarter), there are going to be naive modders who have big dreams but don't actually know how to keep their promises. There are going to be all kinds of people who make mistakes, because human being make mistakes. Your entire argument rests on the idea that human beings should just choose to not make mistakes. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Sotof]

Whatever Paradox does then I sure hope I can protect aspects of my mod from ending up in a paid mod. I don't want the things I make to ever end up in a paid mod, and it would annoy me greatly to have to chase after people using my mod or me having to charge people 0.01$ just to get protection from Valve.

 

[ABookshelf]

Your entire argument rests on the idea that human beings should just choose to not make mistakes. It doesn't work that way.

Well in this situation it does. You're not actively choosing to make a mistake but you're knowingly putting yourself in a risky situation. If you choose to monetize your work without any relevant experience or appropriate preparation you're setting yourself up for possible failure. You think people are obligated to pity you just because you were a well-meaning but "naive modder" with "big dreams." You could've kept the status quo and kept releasing your content for free, but you chose to take a risk. Good on you for taking a risk, but it didn't work out. Welcome to real life buddy. Some modders right now who are trying to capitalize on the new system with Skyrim are going to learn that lesson.

 

[Jia Xu]

Well in this situation it does. You're not actively choosing to make a mistake but you're knowingly putting yourself in a risky situation. If you choose to monetize your work without any relevant experience or appropriate preparation you're setting yourself up for possible failure. You think people are obligated to pity you just because you were a well-meaning but "naive modder" with "big dreams." You could've kept the status quo and kept releasing your content for free, but you chose to take a risk. Good on you for taking a risk, but it didn't work out. Welcome to real life buddy. Some modders right now who are trying to capitalize on the new system with Skyrim are going to learn that lesson.

You got money for preying on consumers. "Welcome to life, buddy." Again, aside from dodging the bulk of my argument that you had no response to, you're wilfully ignoring that there's no protection for the consumer here. The consumer isn't going to get a refund if the mod is broken by a patch or if the modder abandons it after purchase.

 

[Arakhor]

The best bit of course is that pay-walled mods are not risk-free, however much Bethesda and Valve claim otherwise. Even if the mod works perfectly and you've just changed your mind, Valve will only refund the payment cost to your Steam Wallet, not to your card (or however you paid). That is downright shady at best and probably illegal in the EU.