[MOD] Imperator Invictus
- Thread starter Snowlet
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I understand... I know it's complicated but I wish you good luck
Well if you guys are going to rework the Bactria Quest Tree I would like to suggest something
first mission
Make on one side a tree of missions for those people "agressive" and who want to quickly declare independence from the Seleukids an aggressive tree. ( although I admit that I don't like it, but I know there are people who don't have the patience )
And on the other, make a more "historic" mission tree, meaning I don't mind spending years being a Seleukids' vassal while I wait for Diodotus to appear and assume the throne as long as I have something to do ( developing my territory, solving cultural problems and religious, etc ) and make sure I won't be integrated by Seleukids, maybe even allow me to invade some territories in the Sogdiana region? of course, with the accession of Diodotus to the throne it would be time for independence...
And please make it possible for the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom and Indo-Greek Kingdom tags to be formed...
Right now about Heritance of Bactria
National Commerce Income +10%: Well that makes a lot of sense as the trade was very strong in Bactria ( Silk Road ) I fully agree
ManPower Recovery Speedy -10%: I think they gave it because Bactria used to hire mercenaries to complete their armies??? I'm neutral with that but I think it would be better to give a Threshold for Civil War penalty or a character loyalty penalty after all historically what really ruined Bactria was the successive power grabs with many of its generals of self declaring "Kings" when entering Indian territory
Pop Assimilate Speed +10%: Although this is very good, I can't agree... after all, one of the reasons Diodotus managed to rise to power was precisely that the Bactrian people got many rights and influence was like that with Euthydemus too. it was with the Sogdian people... so normally Bactria used to go down the path of syncretism integrating other cultures instead of assimilation but I don't know how we could represent that, perhaps reducing the penalty of happiness by integrating a culture? Of course we can get something else as a bonus like its strong cavalry ( some bonus on some cavalry ) or its high urbanization (lower cost to found cities, or a bonus on civilization )
Of course all these are just suggestions for the decision and with you I hope you are not upset with my observations
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I'm not sure how the base game deals with the situation of the trade good in a territory changing (e.g. by a mission tree) and leaving it after that with an "unfitting" settlement building like a mine/farm, but in Imperator Invictus it had...interesting effects, when my Aquitanian tribe adopted the military tradition of "Superior Horses" - maybe they are superior, because the slaves of the former stone mine carve them? 
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Recently started a Carni playthrough (east of adriatic Veneti, today Slovenia). Is there a reason that for the Carni and the Latobici the pops in the territories are of druidic religion, while the characters are of the hellenic religion while both being within the celtic cultural group? Or is it just the effect of the mod changing the pop religion but forgetting to change the character religion as well?
It could be argued that the peoples in the region (note1) at the game start (note2) were the communities with continuity from the early iron age before their material culture got celticized or rather latenised. It can also be argued that the languages of those communities had some similarity to Venetic, an Italic language (note3). Supposedly the religious views of these iron age communities were also closer to Venetic (in-game hellenism) and Illyrian (in-game also hellenism) rather than Celtic.
Toying around with than knowledge, for the purposes of my current playthrough I roleplay elites (characters with hellenic religion) holding on to old iron age beliefs while the majority of population has already accepted the new ways (pops with druidic religion). So I dont mind the discrepancies I presented in the first paragraph.
I was already a part of some discussion in this thread about me being interested in helping with the revitalization of the Western Balkan tags (Slovenia to Albania/Macedonia area), but I never really find the time. Apart from my job and other interests I also like to play a lot of different games
NOTES FROM TEXT ABOVE:
note1: regardless of how the cultural attribution of the Carni or Latobici is in the historical sources or their interpretation, anyway those ethno-political tribal names are from at least 3 centuries later
note2: just after the first Celtic material culture starts appearing in the region in La-tene B1
note3: based on personal names from roman-time grave inscriptions from Ig in the vicinity of Ljubljana, Slovenia
It could be argued that the peoples in the region (note1) at the game start (note2) were the communities with continuity from the early iron age before their material culture got celticized or rather latenised. It can also be argued that the languages of those communities had some similarity to Venetic, an Italic language (note3). Supposedly the religious views of these iron age communities were also closer to Venetic (in-game hellenism) and Illyrian (in-game also hellenism) rather than Celtic.
Toying around with than knowledge, for the purposes of my current playthrough I roleplay elites (characters with hellenic religion) holding on to old iron age beliefs while the majority of population has already accepted the new ways (pops with druidic religion). So I dont mind the discrepancies I presented in the first paragraph.
I was already a part of some discussion in this thread about me being interested in helping with the revitalization of the Western Balkan tags (Slovenia to Albania/Macedonia area), but I never really find the time. Apart from my job and other interests I also like to play a lot of different games
NOTES FROM TEXT ABOVE:
note1: regardless of how the cultural attribution of the Carni or Latobici is in the historical sources or their interpretation, anyway those ethno-political tribal names are from at least 3 centuries later
note2: just after the first Celtic material culture starts appearing in the region in La-tene B1
note3: based on personal names from roman-time grave inscriptions from Ig in the vicinity of Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Hey, so I just finished a judean-->israel-->kingdom of david playthrough and i have to say the mission tree is well put together! I know I have made some suggestions based on Israelite history but here are some based on gameplay:
1) there is a missiont hat requires you to own all the israelite religion holy sites, but the tooltip merely says all prophets have to have a holysite, might be worth adjusting that.
2) I feel like the Israelite Diarchy government should be unlocked wwaaayy earlier. Seems weird to me that a historical government type that existed during the period of Imperator is locked behind having to conquer your way to Persia, Anatolia, and Yemen. The Israelite Diarchy system (which i suggested before playing through, good work on actually implementing it somehow) existed during the hasmonean period. I would suggest having it tied to the formation of Israel as a state, to give it a historical root: tying it to the Empire of Alexandra (pic below) who operated on a system of being queen while her relatives were high priests (ironically one of the few times between the Maccabees and Pompey that the post was separated, purely because while it was uncouth for the same person to be king and high priest, a woman being high priest was 100% unacceptable).
2.a) I feel like the post of Kahen should only be able to be taken by the person that holds the post of Kohen in the Israelite Diarchy system, although I am not sure how viable that is within the game engine so make of that what you will.
3) The mission where you conquer arabia and get a city in Sarouson is very odd, I feel like you should actually own the place before that happens, otherwise you are just giving Saba a free city for no reason?? (also it doesn't tend to get the hebrew pops that the mission describes). Maybe the new city should be tried to the following mission or have the city that is built up be another one (I would suggest Mecca tbh).
4) Also I feel the way the "convert" missions are written are... pretty bizarre. Talking about mass converting Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. Like, that doesn't really make any sense at all in context of either how the jewish religion worked or how the historical Second Temple Israeli states worked. There is only one example of mass conversion and that in of itself was immensely controversial and more done as a tax thing. Now the IRL Second Kingdom of Israel never expanded beyond the Hebrew heartland so it is hard to say what they would do but still.
5) I would start Israel on the Military Service law, since that is almost exactly what they had historically.
6) I have been thinking how to represent the quite naturally unique religious policy that Israel had to have historically and would have to have if it became a multiethnic empire. I think the best way to represent it would be the conversion laws. Since religion and ethnicity are so tightly intertwined, having a law that is "cultural or religious conversion policy" is not really applicable. So may I suggest the following:
- Ethnarchy - the idea of israel/judea/KoD as a jewish state for the jewish people: +state religion happiness + integrated culture happiness - unintegrated culture happiness - small levy - large conversion speed
- Noachian Laws - the concept that all non hebrew peoples of the nation should live under a set of universal laws while retaining their own religion: + integrated culture happiness + levy + culture integration - small non state religions happiness - slave happiness
- Conversion of Gentiles - abandonment of historic norms of judaism and converting peoples en-mass to the faith: + large conversion speed + levy - integrated culture happiness - non state religion happiness
- Henotheism - reversion to the pre-babylonian doctrine of YWH being the god of the jews and only the jews, accepting other national pantheons: + non state religion happiness + unintegrated culture happiness - omen power - large conversion speed (preferably near zero)
These modifiers are suggestions but I feel like these four laws represent all of the historic and reasonable policy. My logic behind the integrated culture stuff is simulating them being integrated into hebrew society like the Edomites were IRL, where they were converted to Judaism and often married into hebrew families but were still considered somewhat foreign (like the First Herod, who was not ancestrally judean but of mixed edomite and arab descent). Also for levies, it again relates back to the way that the Hasmonean kingdom operated, jewish individuals had to provide service to the state, ethnic minorities did not but had fewer rights. Since we have non-ethnic hebrew jews doing this (Like Herod and Antipater), i think the intergration process IG fits this best.
1) there is a missiont hat requires you to own all the israelite religion holy sites, but the tooltip merely says all prophets have to have a holysite, might be worth adjusting that.
2) I feel like the Israelite Diarchy government should be unlocked wwaaayy earlier. Seems weird to me that a historical government type that existed during the period of Imperator is locked behind having to conquer your way to Persia, Anatolia, and Yemen. The Israelite Diarchy system (which i suggested before playing through, good work on actually implementing it somehow) existed during the hasmonean period. I would suggest having it tied to the formation of Israel as a state, to give it a historical root: tying it to the Empire of Alexandra (pic below) who operated on a system of being queen while her relatives were high priests (ironically one of the few times between the Maccabees and Pompey that the post was separated, purely because while it was uncouth for the same person to be king and high priest, a woman being high priest was 100% unacceptable).
2.a) I feel like the post of Kahen should only be able to be taken by the person that holds the post of Kohen in the Israelite Diarchy system, although I am not sure how viable that is within the game engine so make of that what you will.
3) The mission where you conquer arabia and get a city in Sarouson is very odd, I feel like you should actually own the place before that happens, otherwise you are just giving Saba a free city for no reason?? (also it doesn't tend to get the hebrew pops that the mission describes). Maybe the new city should be tried to the following mission or have the city that is built up be another one (I would suggest Mecca tbh).
4) Also I feel the way the "convert" missions are written are... pretty bizarre. Talking about mass converting Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. Like, that doesn't really make any sense at all in context of either how the jewish religion worked or how the historical Second Temple Israeli states worked. There is only one example of mass conversion and that in of itself was immensely controversial and more done as a tax thing. Now the IRL Second Kingdom of Israel never expanded beyond the Hebrew heartland so it is hard to say what they would do but still.
5) I would start Israel on the Military Service law, since that is almost exactly what they had historically.
6) I have been thinking how to represent the quite naturally unique religious policy that Israel had to have historically and would have to have if it became a multiethnic empire. I think the best way to represent it would be the conversion laws. Since religion and ethnicity are so tightly intertwined, having a law that is "cultural or religious conversion policy" is not really applicable. So may I suggest the following:
- Ethnarchy - the idea of israel/judea/KoD as a jewish state for the jewish people: +state religion happiness + integrated culture happiness - unintegrated culture happiness - small levy - large conversion speed
- Noachian Laws - the concept that all non hebrew peoples of the nation should live under a set of universal laws while retaining their own religion: + integrated culture happiness + levy + culture integration - small non state religions happiness - slave happiness
- Conversion of Gentiles - abandonment of historic norms of judaism and converting peoples en-mass to the faith: + large conversion speed + levy - integrated culture happiness - non state religion happiness
- Henotheism - reversion to the pre-babylonian doctrine of YWH being the god of the jews and only the jews, accepting other national pantheons: + non state religion happiness + unintegrated culture happiness - omen power - large conversion speed (preferably near zero)
These modifiers are suggestions but I feel like these four laws represent all of the historic and reasonable policy. My logic behind the integrated culture stuff is simulating them being integrated into hebrew society like the Edomites were IRL, where they were converted to Judaism and often married into hebrew families but were still considered somewhat foreign (like the First Herod, who was not ancestrally judean but of mixed edomite and arab descent). Also for levies, it again relates back to the way that the Hasmonean kingdom operated, jewish individuals had to provide service to the state, ethnic minorities did not but had fewer rights. Since we have non-ethnic hebrew jews doing this (Like Herod and Antipater), i think the intergration process IG fits this best.
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Very good and detailed post. So far I only noticed that mission trees mention "building temples". I know there is a "temple" building in the game and that probably couldn't be changed into "synagogue" for example (technically NOT a temple) just for them, but at least missions should somehow reflect the fact that Israelites of that era were extremely against the idea of having any other temple than the one in Jerusalem. At some point in history Jewish refugees built small temple of Jahweh in Egypt and priests from Jerusalem were sending envoys there demanding the closure of that temple, because there can be only one.
Mentions of Israelites building temples here and there is quite unhistorical and somehow doesn't fit the great care devs put into making this mod so immersive.
Mentions of Israelites building temples here and there is quite unhistorical and somehow doesn't fit the great care devs put into making this mod so immersive.
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Tbf the Samaritans had their own temple but yeah that's a reasonable point, and even tho this is technically out of the scope of the game there were attempts by non-expulsion diaspora communities to build temples once the second one was destroyed by the romans. While none of them got off the ground still. Oh and this is for another time but maybe a decision to rebuild the temple as either a newly independent jewish state or as an Major/Great power in control of the region (which again was proposed and attempted several times before the advent of Islam, and obviously cyrus did it before the game start).
I have been thinking about the Samaritan issue and I think ultimately there is no good solution. A separate religion seems a bit silly, considering how broad religion in imperator is anyways. Are the differences between Samaritans and Jews bigger than that of Greek, Roman, and Illyrian Hellenism? Not really at all. You could create separate cultures, maybe split Hebrew between Judean and Samaritan but then you would have to do that for every single diaspora community. Maybe you could split it between three cultures: Judean, Samaritan, Tefuszot (a term for an individual in the diaspora, literally "exiled"), but then does that make the population bases too small? It's a difficult needle to thread.
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We'll be looking to see which of these we can implement, but probably a lot of your suggestions will get through, thanks for this detailed post.
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One suggestion for Israel, maybe the religion tab could get an update.
The Judaism are an monotheistic religion, in the vanilla it was strange that PDX implement different prophets. Because they pray only to Yahweh / YHWH
and not like the romans to different gods - one god for every purpose like war, love, hunting etc.
Yahweh - Wikipedia
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Yes, their version of Judaism is (it exists to this day) a bit different and they worship at Mt. Gerazim if I recall correctly, but right now I'm talking from the perspective of playing as Judah (I don't know, but I think people prefer to choose Judah over Samaria when playing). But even if playing as Samaria I think Samaritans also rejected the idea of building temples - they also had only one place of official worship - it was only not in Jerusalem.
And how would you like to do it? Current way is acceptable. It gives players the same mechanic as polytheist countries while keeping the Jewish monotheism.One suggestion for Israel, maybe the religion tab could get an update.
The Judaism are an monotheistic religion, in the vanilla it was strange that PDX implement different prophets. Because they pray only to Yahweh / YHWH
and not like the romans to different gods - one god for every purpose like war, love, hunting etc.
Yahweh - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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1) and 2) I'll do. 3) Is a random territory with incense in one of the two arabias. In the dev build it has already been updated that you need to own the territory as well. 4) What do you propose as alternative? 5) I'll look into it, but it should be doable. 6) Is this a conversion law tha gives levy size? That'd be op...
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On 4, I honestly don't know.
On levy size, it basically comes from the policy of only jews having to do military service. Since the game works out levies from integrated cultures rather than religion, it would represent the converted now having to serve in the military (or even being able to). Perhaps you could have it scale with religious unity somehow, but I am no coder and do not know if that would work in the system.
Yeah I mean, i dont think their religious should be split because I have said, religions in Imperator are designed to be broad and contain contradicting beliefs. But maybe there should be a province modifier representing their temple.
I'll make it manpower then. Because Levy size is OP. SInce it's conversion laws (or did I understand that incorrectly?)
By the way, related to playing Judea: what sort of legion composition are people using? The Levantine traditions buff camels so I guess those as flankers? It's also relatively easy to get Greek traditions so something from those as the main line? I've mostly played with Persian+Greek traditions (Bactria rules) with my trusty HI+HC+HA combos.
Is it a possibility that the Italian levy divided in two between both roman conculs?
See I was using Camels as my frontline, Spearmen as my backline, and Light Cav as my flanks. Works p well with deception and you can add in chariots and horse archers if you have access to them as fillers.
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Another minor suggestion for the middle east: the addition of Petra as a great work? Maybe something relating to commerce income, local fort defence, and population capacity.
If you have a 3D Model for us that is not copyrighted
Sadly we don't have many who can do 3D models, that's why the addition of unique Wonders will be relatively rare, but the addition of Petra was envisioned already.
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