[LUX] Spirituality Enhancement

[DarkReborn]

Alexandros II had the "possessed" trait. Indeed, special gameplay options should open to such characters. Shaytana intended to introduce some interesting things for them, that is why he inserted so many events making people go "stressed" and then possibly worse. In our case, we could branch off the possessed trait to an equivalent of the "become Arinniti's avatar/consort" for other religions that don't have a landmark to rebuild. These "avatar/consort" traits could be the base for accessing one of the powerful CBs Shaytana created and handed to a few religions, and all sorts of side features such as special treatment of your prisoners.

I'll keep this in mind, let's discuss it again once the Arinniti's avatar/consort is well implemented for Luwians...

I had the same idea a while ago ( I nicknamed it the "God-Emperor megalomania" ) for a lengthy and special event chain like vanilla's lunatic events or the demon child even chain from SoA, and I remember writing down some of my ideas... since Alexandros II is Caligula (appointing his hose chancellor, burning Rome...). As a matter of fact, here's a list of my planed events/event chains if anyone wants to have an opinion, the first three ones are already done and uploaded to the SVN, by the way:

# Altaic child's first horse and horse ride ( At 10 years old, Mongol children have learned to ride already... we can extrapolate this to other Altaic cultures)
# Priest finds sacred tree (For European pagans; tree worship and sacred groves were a large part of the pre-Christian traditions in Europe)
# Chinese Nightmare (Someone from a Chinese religion has a dream-omen about his dynasty failing and consults a Taoist soothsayer/sorcerer)
# Ghost of Alexandros
# God-Emperor megalomania (Demonborn-style event chain)
# Son of Zeus (Wife claims to have been impregnated by the Olympian womanizer by excellence, Zeus)
# The Necronomicon (Someone reads the wrong book and descends into madness... or might become a mad prophet of the "Old Ones", whoever those are in LI!)

 

[richvh]

Decisions for becoming Arinniti's consort/Arinniti in flesh:

	#Go on retreat to improve chances to be accepted by Arinniti
	go_on_luwian_retreat = {
		is_high_prio = yes
		potential = {
			has_character_flag = arinniti_explanation_complete
			NOT = {
				has_character_flag = on_luwian_retreat
				has_character_flag = awaiting_arinnitis_acceptance
				has_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
				trait = arinnitis_consort
				trait = arinniti_in_flesh
			}
		}
		allow = {
			prestige = 1000
			piety = 1000
			war = no
			NOT = {
				trait = traveling
			}
		}
		effect = {
			prestige = -500
			piety = -500
			set_character_flag = on_luwian_retreat
			character_event = {
				id = luwian_retreat.1
			}
		}
	}
	#Begin the ritual to become Arinniti's Consort
	become_arinnitis_consort = {
		potential = {
			has_character_flag = arinniti_explanation_complete
			is_female = no
			is_reformed_religion = yes
			war = no
			NOT = {
				has_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
				has_character_flag = awaiting_arinnitis_acceptance
				trait = arinnitis_consort
				trait = traveling
			}
		}
		allow = {
			NOT = {
				has_character_flag = on_luwian_retreat
			}
		}
		effect = {
			set_character_flag = awaiting_arinnitis_acceptance
			job_spiritual = {
				character_event = become_arinnitis_consort.1
			}
		}
	}
	#Begin the ritual to become Arinniti in Flesh
	become_arinnitis_in_flesh = {
		potential = {
			has_character_flag = arinniti_explanation_complete
			is_female = yes
			is_reformed_religion = yes
			war = no
			NOT = {
				has_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
				has_character_flag = awaiting_arinnitis_acceptance
				trait = arinniti_in_flesh
			}
		}
		allow = {
			NOT = {
				has_character_flag = on_luwian_retreat
			}
		}
		effect = {
			set_character_flag = awaiting_arinnitis_acceptance
			job_spiritual = {
				character_event = become_arinniti_in_flesh.1
			}
		}
	}
}

go_on_luwian_retreat_title;Go on retreat;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
go_on_luwian_retreat_desc;Go on a retreat in the mountains to try to cleanse yourself in Arinniti's eyes.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
become_arinnitis_consort_title;Arinniti's Consort;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
become_arinnitis_consort_desc;Start the ritual to become Arinniti's Consort;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
become_arinniti_in_flesh_title;Arinniti in Flesh;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
become_arinniti_in_flesh_desc;Start the ritual to become Arinniti in Flesh;;;;;;;;;;;;;x

Events for the ritual (haven't even started on the retreat yet):

namespace = become_arinnitis_consort
#Start the ritual to become Arinniti's consort (lord spiritual)
character_event = {
	id = become_arinnitis_consort.1
	hide_window = yes
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	immediate = {
		rightful_religious_head_scope = {
			character_event = {
				id = become_arinnitis_consort.2
				days = 7
				random = 3
			}
		}
	}
}
#Start the ritual to become Arinniti's consort (head of religion)
character_event = {
	id = become_arinnitis_consort.2
	hide_window = yes
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	immediate = {
		FROMFROM = {
			narrative_event = {
				id = become_arinnitis_consort.3
			}
		}
	}
}
#Start the ritual to become Arinniti's consort (liege)
narrative_event = {
	id = become_arinnitis_consort.3
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual
	desc = EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.3
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual
		set_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
		add_trait = travelling
	}
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTBarinnitis_ritual
		set_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
		cancel_ambition = obj_become_arinnitis_consort
	}
}
#Ritual succeeds
narrative_event = {
	id = become_arinnitis_consort.4
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual
	desc = EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.4
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	trigger = {
		has_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
		is_female = no
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 40
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 30
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 20
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 10
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 0
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -10
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -20
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -30
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -40
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -50
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -60
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -70
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -80
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -90
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				trait = detached_priest
				trait = martial_cleric
				trait = scholarly_theologian
				trait = mastermind_theologian
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = cynical
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = chaste
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = temperate
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = cheap
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = greedy
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = slothful
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = shy
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = weak
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = humble
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 2500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 2000
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 1500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 1000
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				prestige = 1000
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = ugly
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			age = 50
		}
	}
	
	immediate = {
		clr_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_complete
		add_trait = arinnitis_consort
	}
}
#Ritual fails
narrative_event = {
	id = become_arinnitis_consort.5
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual
	desc = EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.5
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	trigger = {
		has_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
		is_female = no
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 50
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 60
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 70
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 80
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 90
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = martial_cleric
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.25
			trait = scholarly_theologian
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			trait = mastermind_theologian
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = zealous
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = scholar
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = poet
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = lustful
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = gluttonous
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = charitable
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = diligent
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = gregarious
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = strong
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = proud
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 3000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 4000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 5000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 6000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 7000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			prestige = 2000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			prestige = 3000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			trait = arinnitifavor
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = fair
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				age = 31
			}
		}
	}
	
	immediate = {
		clr_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_complete
		add_trait = rejected_by_arinniti
		set_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
		cancel_ambition = obj_become_arinnitis_consort
	}
}
namespace = become_arinniti_in_flesh
#Start the ritual to become Arinniti in flesh (lord spiritual)
character_event = {
	id = become_arinniti_in_flesh.1
	hide_window = yes
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	immediate = {
		rightful_religious_head_scope = {
			character_event = {
				id = become_arinniti_in_flesh.2
				days = 7
				random = 3
			}
		}
	}
}
#Start the ritual to become Arinniti in flesh (head of religion)
character_event = {
	id = become_arinniti_in_flesh.2
	hide_window = yes
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	immediate = {
		FROMFROM = {
			narrative_event = {
				id = become_arinniti_in_flesh.3
			}
		}
	}
}
#Start the ritual to become Arinniti in flesh (liege)
narrative_event = {
	id = become_arinniti_in_flesh.3
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual
	desc = EVTDESCarinniti_in_flesh.3
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual
		set_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
		add_trait = travelling
	}
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTBarinnitis_ritual
		set_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
		cancel_ambition = obj_become_arinniti_in_flesh
	}
}
#Ritual succeeds
narrative_event = {
	id = become_arinniti_in_flesh.4
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual
	desc = EVTDESCarinniti_in_flesh.4
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	trigger = {
		has_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
		is_female = yes
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 40
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 30
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 20
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 10
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = 0
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -10
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -20
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -30
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -40
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -50
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -60
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -70
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -80
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = ROOT
						value = -90
					}
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				trait = detached_priest
				trait = martial_cleric
				trait = scholarly_theologian
				trait = mastermind_theologian
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = cynical
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = lustful
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = temperate
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = cheap
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = greedy
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = slothful
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = shy
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = weak
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = humble
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 2500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 2000
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 1500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 1000
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				prestige = 1000
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				piety = 500
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = ugly
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			age = 50
		}
	}
	
	immediate = {
		clr_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_complete
		add_trait = arinniti_in_flesh
	}
}
#Ritual fails
narrative_event = {
	id = become_arinnitis_consort.5
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual
	desc = EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.5
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	trigger = {
		has_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
		is_female = yes
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 50
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 60
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 70
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 80
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			rightful_religious_head_scope = {
				opinion = {
					who = ROOT
					value = 90
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = martial_cleric
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.25
			trait = scholarly_theologian
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			trait = mastermind_theologian
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = zealous
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = scholar
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = poet
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = chaste
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = gluttonous
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = charitable
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = diligent
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = gregarious
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = strong
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = proud
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 3000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 4000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 5000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 6000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			piety = 7000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			prestige = 2000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			prestige = 3000
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			trait = arinnitifavor
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			trait = fair
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			NOT = {
				age = 31
			}
		}
	}
	
	immediate = {
		clr_character_flag = arinnitis_ritual_begun
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_complete
		add_trait = rejected_by_arinniti
		set_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
		cancel_ambition = obj_become_arinniti_in_flesh
	}
}

I started on text for these events last night, but forgot to commit to SVN and so can't access them at the moment.

 

[richvh]

OK, trying to get an opinion on this again. Which religions should get the Lent decision/events? Currently it's some subset of religion_group christian which I can't remember why it was chosen and can't find a discussion of in the main thread, so was probably in email with Numahr. In any case, it predates reformed religion mechanics so is outdated.

Current list:

			OR = {
				religion = catholic
				religion = orthodox
				religion = unctionist
				religion = pelagian
				religion = semipelagian
				religion = audianist
				religion = monophysite
				religion = nestorian
				religion = monothelite
				religion = apollinarist
				religion = docetist
				religion = melkite
				religion = arian
				religion = sabellianist
				religion = adoptionist
				religion = donatist
			}

Christian religion_group:

• cathar_reformed
• christian_populist_reformed
• mari_christ_reformed
• montanist_reformed
• nasrani_reformed
• priscillian_reformed
• slavic_christian_reformed
• catholic
• antinomian
• cathar
• donatist
• fraticelli
• waldensian
• orthodox
• bogomilist
• melkite
• montanist
• sabellianist
• valentinian
• arian
• adoptionist
• mari_christ
• priscillian
• nestorian
• docetist
• iconoclast
• monophysite
• monothelite
• apollinarist
• solomonic_christ
• audianist
• celtic_christ
• marcionist
• nasrani
• norse_christ
• pelagian
• semipelagian
• sethian
• slavic_christian
• unctionist

Religions in other groups with a Christian ascendant:

• dievas
• jupiter
• mithra_christ
• plato_christ
• sol_christ
• zal_christ
• celtic_christ_reformed
• norse_christ_reformed

I think we can toss out jupiter, but which of the others would not celebrate Lent (and thus, probably not celebrate Easter, the central feature of Christianity?)

 

[Numahr]

The new events look good and right on spot! I like the idea of a retreating branch...

@ Darkreborn: this piece of code, with appropriate lore text and concepts, is the key one which can be recycled for your own ideas, I would say (only replacing the head by Lord Spiritual maybe for religions without a third-part Head). Whether you claim to be Zeus' son, Alexander's reincarnation, Buddha of Light or [insert your preferred spiritual fantasy], you believing in it is not enough and you need, to gain the full effect, to go through this process. here we have it, with factors which are more or less universal to non-Abrahamic religions.

Now if this whole logic comes from the lunatic / possessed origin, then even a failed attempt at getting recognized in your spiritual fantasy should maintain, if not the social-political aspects, at least the individual-psychological. Forget about special CBs, morale bonii etc. (which we still have to define), but maybe a change in some of your attributes.

--- Edit on the Lent event

This was discussed with richvh in 2012:

Seems to fit the spirit of the mod! I would say, it can be implemented for the same list than religions participating to the Pentarchy system + maybe Catholic and Unctionist, but not the other, more "exotic" or heretical Christian faiths.

Now if this is part of the feast etc. feature, we could extend it to all Christian civilization religions (again, making the difference between Christian religious group and civilization, only the latter being strong enough to have a unified practice from one religion to another):

adoptionist
apollinarist
arian
audianist 
catholic
celtic_christ
docetist
marcionist 
mari_christ
monophysite
monothelite
nasrani
norse_christ
orthodox
sabellianist 
semipelagian
sethian
slavic_christian
solomonic_christ
unctionist
valentinian 
cathar_reformed
mari_christ_reformed
montanist_reformed
nasrani_reformed
priscillian_reformed
slavic_christian_reformed

If you want to keep it limited to the most mainstream part of Christendom, you can remove from this list religions with an unit Ascendant.

 

[vyshan]

I am looking at making some Greek religious festivals associated with the different deities, for the patron deity system. Which I have noticed seem to use the roman names over the Greek names.

Dionysus - Dionysia*: The Dionysia was a city wide festivial to Dionysus. There were a number of interesting things here including the sacrifices to Dionysus, carrying his statue through the city,lots of singing and dancing and of course the Theatrical competition.*

Aphrodite- Aphrodisia: this was a festival dedicated to Aphrodite, the most interesting thing was that after cleaning the altar with the blood of doves, that there were to not be any bloody sacrifices upon the altar. Thus other offerings were given to the goddess, particular salt and bread baked into a phallic shape.

Athena - Panathenaia: This was an involved part that had the following parts: A Large procession from the city walls to the Acropolis, the hanging of a new and elaborately woven garment(the Peplos) upon the statue of Athena, a torch race, an all night service, a large sacrafice which included a 100 cows, a large meat meal for the whole city. Like other festivals there were also athletic competitions such as wrestling, chariot and other horse, a form of boxing and more. I have a number of ideas for the festival, such as for instance if you have a non adult daughter she could be chosen to carry the Peplos or you could be chosen for it, if you currently are a female ruler who is not yet an adult.

Zeus - I could have chosen the Olympic Games, but I have a crazy idea for the Olympic games where people could send athlets to the games from across the world once they are restarted(which would require a powerful greek/roman religion) So athletes from Bactria to egypt and brittania could try and come for this event. I could also look to the festivals of Jupiter for Zeus.

Hermes - Hermaia: unfortunately I can not find much information on this festival besides the fact that gymansitcs competition was a major part and in Athens it could get rowdy and Solon tried to prevent adults from participating. can see about looking into Mercury festivals that could be adapted for him.
Ares - Similar to Hermes, I am can't find a festival with enough details for Ares himself; Mars though, yea I can find plenty of festivals dedicated to Mars.
Hades: here is the issue with hades, while he was worshiped, his cult was never large and he did not have that many big festivals. So I thought that perhaps it might be best to replace in the Patron deities Hades with Apollo or Demeter.


One of the reconstructionist groups that I follow their videos, actually does this every year and this year they performed Phallephoria, which was often the ritual associated with carrying the statue of Dionysus through the city.

 

[futuregary]

Yea, deities would change when they go through syncrenizaion. in my world religion class I recall my teacher explaining for instance one Hindu god became a female bodhisatva when transfered to china and japan. In a synchronized graeco-buddhism, instead of saying Athena-Buddha, it would just be Athena but she would be viewed as a Bodhisattva that helps people seek wisdom and enlightenment. When I wrote up the Eusebian faith, I went with the idea that the gods are now Bodhisattvas, perhaps some heroes should also be regarded as Bodhisattvas as well? In a synchronized faith, perhaps Odysseus or Herakles could be viewed as Bodhisattvas, with their quests being their journey to enlightenment?

Bodhisattvas in the true Buddhist sense are without gender, and since many are combined with gods in other places who embody similar aspects and who also have a sense of gender associated with them, they retain the gender qualities. This explains why Quan Yin is seen as a motherly figure in China, while in India the depictions of Avalokitesvara are either of both genders or no gender at all. While Athena may seem like a good Avalokitesvara candidate, in early Buddhist iconography, there are three main figures who surround Buddha: Mañjuśrī, the embodiment of Buddha's wisdom, Vajrapani, the manifestation of all the Buddhas' power as well as the power of all five tathāgatas, and Avalokiteśvara, who embodies the Buddha's compassion. Of all of these, Athena fits Mañjuśrī the best. As for the compassion deity, as a mother figure, I feel Hera would probably take the place. Eleos makes the most sense, but as I said, she's quite minor (really only worshipped in Athens even in Ancient Greece). For the other gods, it would make sense that they'd become bodhisattvas, and since the religion is more Indo-Hellenic than Buddhist, it isn't imperative that every single one correspond to an actual bodhisattva, but it would make sense that deities who embody non-Buddhist concepts would either be less popular or have what they stand for changed. A good example would be Ares, who would probably lose his connotation with bloodthirsty battle and probably instead either not be worshipped or would be worshipped to escort the souls of departed soldiers or something that doesn't directly contradict the teachings of Buddha.

Yea that works for the most part.

Speaking of culture ascendency's shouldn't the indo-hellenic religion have an indian ascendency? Also what makes indo-hellenic different from Sindhian Hindu?

Something about the term "Indo-Hellenic" that is rather misleading: it doesn't necessarily refer to a fusion Greco-Indian culture, it's more of a location marking prefix. "Indo-Hellenic" as in the Greeks of the Indus. Indo-Hellenic by nature does not necessarily have to be heavily drawn from Indian influences (while the Indo-Greeks did indeed adopt many Indian styles, deities, and practices, they maintained their own culture for the majority of their time there, and were eventually assimilated some time after the invasions of the Sakae and subsequent invaders IRL). The reason the reason the Indo-Hellenic religion doesn't have an Indian Ascendant is simply because it isn't really all that Indian. I kind of see it like... British vs. Australian. They came from the same people, but time and distance has resulted in the formulation of a new culture that isn't really the same as the old one nor is it that much of a fusion of the old one and the indigenous one. It's just kind of its own thing now.

Sindhian Hindu (name pending, looking for suggestions) is the result of Hellenic interference on the Indian peninsula (not unlike Vidharma). From the scripture:

155 BCE: Menander completes the conquest of India and Sri Lanka. He creates a new religion that brings Hellenic influence to the Hindu pantheon, with a temple network headed by the state. Beginning of Hellenization in India.

This one is more of a syncretism between the Hellenic and Hindu pantheons, with a lot of influencing concepts of dharma, reincarnation, and other Hindu concepts, but with practices and depictions closer resembling Greek style.

Aha! but that's the conundrum I found myself in when adding the evil_god names... not ALL religions have a defined figure that represents the "idea of evil", a demiurge, or whatever you want to call it as abrahamic, dualist, gnostic religions do.... so I had to come up with (really) stupid fillers like Xiaoren for the Confucians. I reckon that maybe a generic demon name like, continuing with the Confucian example, Yaoguai, might have been better... but the Yaoguai is not something that is an opposing thought to all that represents "proper behaviour" to Confucianism like a Xiaoren is. We must also remember that the evil_god_name also pops in the "devil child" event chain... that declares that your child is actually the son of X evil god. While this works for Hades for example (I remember HBO's Rome series, where one of the character declares himself "son of Hades" in an attempt to threaten someone, and everyone is shocked not because Hades is evil, but because that's such a taboo thing to say in that society), and son of Chaos is looks like a badass thing to say, "son of Xiaoren", or "son of Ignorance"... sounds really stupid. I'll study the situation though, lest I become a xiaoren myself

Suddenly the name Bethesda Studios chose for the bears in Fallout 3 makes sense Effin' yaoguai.

I get where you're coming from. Maybe we can just go through and pick out the ones that don't make sense, leaving the rest intact and coming up with more appropriate alternatives for those who don't.
There isn't really a whole lot of references in Confucianism about demons or malevolent spirits, really; a lot of superstitious beliefs like that in China come from Shenism (I'm guessing, since they certainly don't come from Confucius' or Buddha's teachings).

And here's me failing at English again, that's why I'm never gonna get a job in a foreign country .
I didn't mean it was real thing, just that Shaytana/Cèsar suggested that it was a syncretism that brought together those elements in LI.

Ah, no, that wasn't a criticism of you, Numahr used the same word (Pyromantism). I could be wrong (and this wasn't really directed at you so I probably should have quoted from another post, sorry about that), I was just wondering if the "Pyromantism" in discussion was a real thing that I've overlooked or if it came from the actual practice of pyromancy.

Your English is more than satisfactory

Come on... rewarding infanticide has been in CK2 like since day 1, when you had to kill that stupid weak child heir that got in the way of your eugenics wet dream übermensch.

Heheh. Back before there were limits on who could babysit your brats, I used to send my kinds off to get a different culture so they'd come back Turkish and rule the Imperium Romanum or something :3

As I said... the option to offer an animal sacrifice will be there for the compulsory, required sacrifices (like the ones you'd have to offer at a blot or whatever we name the Canaanite ritual). "Voluntary" sacrifices like the killing of prisoners at the Irminsul or burning them in Sol Invictus name though, are completely up to the player to do or not for that extra, juicy piety/authority...

And look my in the face (avatar?) and say that a cult worshipping Fenrir shouldn't have compulsory human sacrifices to appease the Great Wolf...

Alright, I cannot deny that :laugh: Though I would think that they would target members outside the flock; maybe not so much out of spite of non-believers but a sense to preserve what small community of crazy people would be willing to partake in such rituals.

Yes and no. In principle, you are agreeing with my suggestion to go for a wide understanding and give syncretic religions an advantage. But in the details, it depends and common sense must prevail here due to the way I originally defined civilizations.

Some civilizations have a wide scope to incorporate many different real "civilizations" that are assumed to have the same overall characteristics, in an effort to simplify the system: the "Barbarian" and "Archaic" civilization are too wide and incorporates religions which would be foreign to one another. Here the religious groups must prevail.

So in practice, while what we said stands true for Hibernicist and Scandinist, it is not the case for those. Luwian will happily marry Tarhuntites but not Ancient Egyptian although they share the same "Archaic" civilization - that would be way too cosmopolitan for LI's "bastillon" mentalities.

-> the civilization AND group is a general guide, which needs to be tweaked in specific instances, mostly the Barbarian and Archaic civilizations.

As for martial religions being able to inter-marry, this is close to the border. Tarhuntite is a good example as it is a Martial religion that would be most happy to marry Luwians based on lore. Ghazi Islamic could work, too.

Unless they were sectarian or communitarian, I would think that any religions which are common throughout the same group of people (in the most broad senses, the Greeks and Romans) would be far less taboo to intermingle, unless they have distinct doctrinal differences. Would it be hard to imagine a Solar emperor taking an Imperial Cultist or Mithraic wife? Not at all; politics is politics, and an accepted religion of the empire is an accepted religion of the empire.

Your approach on using religion groups to further filter the Archaic and Barbarian religions has a point. I had something else here earlier, but after thinking about it more, it actually does make more sense for those religions to be more based on group, since most examples are rather localized in group anyway. I do ask that Shamanic be added to that list, though.

The idea behind Athena-Buddha was not, actually, to have syncretism between Buddha and Athena, but rather, like you said, that Athena was another Boddhisatva, perhaps one of the most prominent. I brought it up because Menander was specially fan of Athena and he's the one that, supposedly, besieged and conquered Pataliputra (him, or his Lux Invicta proxy), so I thought that Athena needed to be there.

As for Sindhu or Sindhian Hindu, I also suggested Kresnerakles, or Kresnes Herakles, the Krishna-Herakles that was reported to be the god worshipped by King Poros and his subjects (assumed by the Greeks to be Herakles).

I first came up with the adjective Pyromantic, and everything went on from there. It's supposed to be a fire-worshipping religion as seen by Greek mystics like the disciples of Porphyrius or Ammonios Sakas, with a cosmology centered around the idea of heroes and their quests and tests. The example of these heroes standing to the tests of the Divine inspired its subjects to do and be better. These heroes can be Herakles, Zoroaster, Manes, Krishna, David and Moses, for instance. I think it gives a nice blend. Ancient times had this thing in which all gods seem to live in the same crossover world. It's like the Avengers movie.

Given the martial ascendant Mithras worship got during its years as the Army religion of Rome, I think it's best to make Mithraics sacrifice war prisoners, the more important the better, in cases of dire necessity.

I'd also assume Zeus would also be a primary figure; perhaps crossed with Vishnu to form a sky-god who preserves the world below?

I had it all in a nice fitting way in my head until "Avengers" :rofl: I get what you mean though. That's actually really cool.

Agreed; Mithras or not, Romans have a reputation as civilized peoples to uphold.

I see... I don't think we should use the term "Boddhisatva" with Indo-Hellenics though... I guess we could use an Ancient Greek word for "enlightened one" here.

And by the way... I ended equating up the Mara with the greek Aite. I think it's appropiate enough, but if you have any suggestion for it, I'm open.

Interesting. I was mainly interested in knowing this because I'll be writing up some flavour religious decisions on them in the future... and participating in a pyromancy divination ritual is just too cool a thing to write to let it pass by.

As I said before with the "Barbarian" civilization... I'll code the option without any restriction and leave it up to the player to sacrifice prisoners of war instead of coding it into some draconian restrictions like only be able to sacrifice when losing wars and so on.

Hmm... We know the term "eusebeia" from the Edicts of Ashoka, who used the term to best convey "dharma" to the Greeks. There was no such mention of bodhisattvas in those Edicts, so we don't know for sure. I would say the word parakletos ("helper", used in Christianity to refer to the Holy Spirit as a paraclete) could convey the same concept as a bodhisattva.

Mara the Buddhist demon descends from Mara the Hindu goddess of death, and most of the references to Mara (in Buddhism) seem to refer to it as a metaphor, with only one devaputramara referring to it as the son of a deva (in early Buddhism, Mara was seen as both a literal being and a representation of the concept of temptation, though I think it could be possible that this former came about as an attempt to explain Buddhist precepts to polytheists). In Buddhist lore, Mara's main role is seen just before the Buddha reaches enlightenment, when Mara attempts to distract the Buddha by trying to tempt him with three daughters. These daughters are known as Taṇha (Craving), Arati (Boredom), and Raga (Passion). The Greek word used for "temptation" in the Bible in virtually the exact same way is "Peirasmos". "Tanha" would be closest to "Epithumia" and "Raga" would be "Pathos", "Arati" was a bit more difficult to come up with since it doesn't quite mean boredom; it means non-attachment or aversion. One would think "Apatheia" would work, but the concept in Greek actually translates closer to what the goal of Buddhism actually is (that is, detachment from attachment). The closest other term I can think of would be "Ameleó", which roughly means "I neglect, am careless of, disregard". (Thank you Strong's Greek.)

Sad we can't go as far as the mad Julio-Argead who were particularly ... inventive in terms of sacrifice
"39 CE: Aretas V defeated in a great battle near Hebron. He flees East. Alexandros II proclaims himself a God, Neos Helios, has all of the prisoners executed, and to the horror of his generals drinks the blood of an executed Nabatean prince."
"61 CE: Alexandros II defeats the Iceni in battle near Viroconium. A dying, wounded Boudica is brought before Alexandros II who rapes her proclaiming that "she is receiving the favor of a God before her death".
"64 CE: Alexandros II besieges Hecatompylos. The city falls after a 2 month siege. Alexandros II has 1 in 10 inhabitants chosen by lot sacrificed to himself. He then chases Vologases into the East."
"65 CE: Alexandros II catches Vologases I near Antiocheia Margiana. The Parthian King is ritualy sacrificed to the glory of the Divine Alexandros II. Alexandros II returns West"
Perhaps a lunatic Solar-Imperial imperator could have options to do these but well it is very sadistic ( even if IMHO it does not compare with Leo II who is assurely the worst character of the TL ) :
-If he commands an army and takes a city he can sacrifice 1) the soldiers 2) 1/10 inhabitant ( bonus in piety and prestige, city gets looted ) 3) The WHOLE City ! ( holding destroyed but moar prestige and piety )
-If he captures an ennemy woman, he can "honor" her ( need the lustful trait ) and then choose to continue to honor her ( sort of sex slave who becomes pregnant ) or kill her after receiving "divine favor"
-Drinks blood maybe ?
Well you see the idea ...

That was Lux-Nero, right? Or was he Alexandros IV?

There are a lot of features we could implement that come into a gray zone in terms of acceptability. There many despicable things that have happened throughout history and continue to happen to this day. We should not be afraid to acknowledge them for what they are, but there are some things that we don't need to put in as a game mechanic. For the sake of those who may have sensitivity pertaining to these areas (and for our public image in general), I think that rape and genocide fall under this category. The reason I say this is because they are still a plague in the modern world. Sacrificing babies would be absolutely disgusting and horrible if it happened today, but it is no longer common practice and is not something that would affect the vast (99%+) majority of the population. Rape and genocide are both regular - if not daily - occurrences and to include such features in game is rather abhorrent.

This "razing cities" mechanic you speak of is not actually genocide in itself, since it targets the holding and not a group of people. So long as we don't ever incorporate any "ethnic cleansing" CBs or anything of the sort, this is perfectly fine. And it's quite frankly sorely needed for immersion, since what's so scary about invaders who don't slay the populace? As for the "honoring the captive" idea, the very furthest I'm willing to see that go is forced concubinage and may the game take its course. Anything more than that is unnecessary detail and would probably be breaking Paradox rules in some form.

If we do the drinking blood, maybe we could add some kind of vampire reference? o

Alexandros II had the "possessed" trait. Indeed, special gameplay options should open to such characters. Shaytana intended to introduce some interesting things for them, that is why he inserted so many events making people go "stressed" and then possibly worse. In our case, we could branch off the possessed trait to an equivalent of the "become Arinniti's avatar/consort" for other religions that don't have a landmark to rebuild. These "avatar/consort" traits could be the base for accessing one of the powerful CBs Shaytana created and handed to a few religions, and all sorts of side features such as special treatment of your prisoners.

I'll keep this in mind, let's discuss it again once the Arinniti's avatar/consort is well implemented for Luwians...

If we're going to make the Possessed trait associated with divine things, it should be far less frequent; damn if I don't get that or Lunatic every game I play. Also, sociopathy seems to affect half the people in the Lux world, but according to the American Psychiatric Association, it affects no more than 3-5% of the general population. There are a few traits like that that could use a change in frequency.

 

[Attalus]

That was Lux-Nero, right? Or was he Alexandros IV?

There are a lot of features we could implement that come into a gray zone in terms of acceptability. There many despicable things that have happened throughout history and continue to happen to this day. We should not be afraid to acknowledge them for what they are, but there are some things that we don't need to put in as a game mechanic. For the sake of those who may have sensitivity pertaining to these areas (and for our public image in general), I think that rape and genocide fall under this category. The reason I say this is because they are still a plague in the modern world. Sacrificing babies would be absolutely disgusting and horrible if it happened today, but it is no longer common practice and is not something that would affect the vast (99%+) majority of the population. Rape and genocide are both regular - if not daily - occurrences and to include such features in game is rather abhorrent.

This "razing cities" mechanic you speak of is not actually genocide in itself, since it targets the holding and not a group of people. So long as we don't ever incorporate any "ethnic cleansing" CBs or anything of the sort, this is perfectly fine. And it's quite frankly sorely needed for immersion, since what's so scary about invaders who don't slay the populace? As for the "honoring the captive" idea, the very furthest I'm willing to see that go is forced concubinage and may the game take its course. Anything more than that is unnecessary detail and would probably be breaking Paradox rules in some form.

If we do the drinking blood, maybe we could add some kind of vampire reference? o

Yeah after reading back my message I see I went too far especially on rape. But I think the others could be kept. ( especially the blood one, this TL lacks a Dracula )
Instead of needing the possessed trait we could create another trait "the Mad-Emperor" (which could not be cleansed ) or at least make the events require that the character is both possessed and emperor

 

[Vintage Zombie]

Hades: here is the issue with hades, while he was worshiped, his cult was never large and he did not have that many big festivals. So I thought that perhaps it might be best to replace in the Patron deities Hades with Apollo or Demeter.

Dis Pater had an annual festival in Rome.

 

[Numahr]

Very good stuff in these discussions

Quick message to say that:

- I'll incorporate some of the things posted today and yesterday when finalizing the descriptions of the discussed religions

- FG has well explained the thing with Indo-Hellenic religions being not so Indian in essence, if it was not for Shaytana, I would call them "Bactrian Hellenic"

- Also agree with FG that extreme violence is better kept as abstracted. If you want your ruler to rape opposite-gender prisoners before killing them, in fact I remember that happening with the first Qajar King for example (but same-sex and towards an eunuch, whatever), fine but it does not need to be explicitly modelled by in-game mechanics. Basically a lustful + cruel trait character would do it, just "imagine" it without looking for the specific event. Anyway most concrete actions of your ruler are so abstracted, also the case for "friendship", it is up to you to imagine your ruler's daily actions. At a more abstract level, damages to infrastructures when a holding falls / is looted is quite welcome, though.

- Point taken that if we want to use the possessed trait, we have to put some serious limitations somewhere. I think we could leave these mental pathologies as widespread as they are; only we should be careful that being possessed only gets you into the great stuff in very few situations... there are many ways to do that. The trigger event could have a very long MTTH: manipulating someone's (your own) mental instability should not be as... stable and predictable as re-building an ancient landmark. So while trying to communicate with the Gods through your possessed state, the outcome could be quite disappointing... of course beside the randomness factor, or in combination, we can use strict conditions. But in any case, it should be, I think, less based on a decision for which you control when you trigger it ("re-build Chattousa"), and more event-based. Like: you have high piety and authority + possessed... -> low probability that one day you wake up with that kind of dream as the one in the become Arinniti's consort/avatar chain. But your possessed ruler may die without the "miraculous apparition" ever happening, there is nothing certain in the realm of insanity...

- I will soon come with the new religious descriptions, please bear with me o

 

[DarkReborn]

- FG has well explained the thing with Indo-Hellenic religions being not so Indian in essence, if it was not for Shaytana, I would call them "Bactrian Hellenic"
o

Now I get it better... "Indo-Hellenic" can sound and sounds misleading indeed... it's more like a "crossroads" syncretic religion. I agree that Bactrian Hellenism might be a better name... but we should keep true to the Shaytanic scriptures..

 

[vyshan]

Dis Pater had an annual festival in Rome.

Yea, well Dis Pater is not hades, the roman equvillant is Pluto. Besides I do suggest having either Apollo or Demeter as they had much larger cults within the Graeco-Roman world over Hades.

Using Roman holidays here are some additional festivals

Ares/Mars:
Kalends of Mars - This was the roman new year and it took place around the first of March, it was also dedicated to his mother Juno(Hera), but primarly it was dedicated to Mars as this was his birthday. Laruals would be placed up around the houses of the priests and other public buildings. There were dancers called Salii along with men called the Agonenses who dressed in ceromaniol armor from time gone by. After the procession, there was a feast.

Relatedly around the time of march(which in general was sacred to mars) was the festival of Equirria which were horse races dedicated to the god that according to legend were started by Romulus himself. It was actually two festivals one at the end of feburary and the other in march. Mixing these two festivals into one for an IG festival to Ares/Mars.

Hermes/Mercury - surprisingly little, but there is the festival of Mercuralia from my quick searching is traditionally the birthday of the Patron of Merchants (this day is also sacred to Maia, his mother). Merchants draw water from the aqua Mercurii — a sacred spring tied to Mercury — in jars cleansed by fumigation. With a bough of laurel, the merchant then sprinkles both his merchandise and himself with water from the jars. Mercury is closely associated with merchants and traders, and they hold this day as a feast day.

Zeus/Jupiter - again not sure, the romans, like the greeks, have plenty of festivals to Jupiter/Zeus. But there are few that just stand out as more important then the rest to me. All are equally important, the only one that might be more important is the Olympic Games but they are tied to a location. and as mentioned there was that crazy idea I mentioned relating to them.

Very good stuff in these discussions

Quick message to say that:

- I'll incorporate some of the things posted today and yesterday when finalizing the descriptions of the discussed religions

- FG has well explained the thing with Indo-Hellenic religions being not so Indian in essence, if it was not for Shaytana, I would call them "Bactrian Hellenic"

I still think that Indo-Hellenic religions should be able to marry indians religions, due to the location of Bactria, I am far more likely to encounter another indian over a graeco-roman guy who is outside the religious group.

Though this brings up an interesting idea, could religions 'evolve' IG? what I mean by that is that for instance, if you have several buddhist provinces and another indo-hellenic religion, perhaps after several generations they evolve into Eusebian provinces to repersent syncrentisim of religion? No idea if this is possible or not though.


Speaking of polytheist religions, I am wondering if it is possible to have more ways to show the different cults of influence within a realm? with different priesthoods and so forth?

 

[DarkReborn]

With the Graeco-Roman festivals... as FG said, there's such a thing as overdoing anything, so I'll probably wont be doing all those separate festivals, just one "public festival" which you can dedicate to one of the 12 (though I'll probably cut it down further to the 3 or 4 most important ones) Olympians, with a relevant flavour text, and a different modifier depending on your choice... but the outcome will be roughly the same each time. Remember we have to keep it practical... and drowning the player with 12 different festival decisions is not a functional thing.

Speaking of polytheist religions, I am wondering if it is possible to have more ways to show the different cults of influence within a realm? with different priesthoods and so forth?

This is one of the things I initially wanted to do but finally decided against it, in stead of that the simpler patron gods system was implemented... the reason is that most religions are too small in province numbers for different cults within it to have any effect whatsoever... and the most significant off-shoots and cults are already independent religions anyway, like the Indian Kartikeyan, Saura and Kuberan religions or the Teiwaz and Wodanaz cults for Germanics.

I figure that, with such fragmentation surrounding them, the (usually) Traditional soul polytheist religions maintain themselves "seamlessly polytheist", if there's such a thing, instead of risking to cause further division by devoting themselves completely to one deity.


Also, Numahr:
Any ideas for Arabic pagans? I feel that they're another of the centrepieces (or Shaytana set them up as that) of LI... but I cannot find any relevant sources on festivals or religious ceremonies related to them. Maybe a decision related to erect an stele dedicated to the gods?

 

[richvh]

Text for the ritual events:

EVTNAMEarinnitis_ritual;Arinniti's Ritual;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.3;[Root.GetFOA], if you are truly determined to proceed with the ritual to receive the blessing of becoming Arinniti's Consort, mindful of the possibility of being rejected by Her and receiving her curse instead, I will conduct you into the presence of Her Voice on Earth, [FromFrom.GetBestName]. Remember that during the course of this ritual, which is quite lengthy, you will be sequestered in Her temple unable to conduct the affairs of state, and a regent will be appointed to handle things in your absence.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual;Yes. I shall not waver from my decision.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTBarinnitis_ritual;Er... What was I thinking? This was a bad idea all along. Call it off.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.4;It has been much too long since you entered seclusion in the temple. Recently your sleep has been disturbed by dreams of Arinniti, which you have discussed with Her Voice for guidance. With this morning's dream, finally all are agreed... you have been chosen to be Her Consort.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_complete;Praise Arinniti! I am yours, my Goddess.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinnitis_consort.5;It has been much too long since you entered seclusion in the temple. Recently your sleep has been disturbed by dreams of Arinniti, which you have discussed with Her Voice for guidance. With this morning's dream, finally all are agreed... you have been rejected by the goddess.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_rejected;Woe is me! Is this life worth living, without Her favor?;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinniti_in_flesh.3;[Root.GetFOA], if you are truly determined to proceed with the ritual to receive the blessing of becoming Arinniti's Consort, mindful of the possibility of being rejected by Her and receiving her curse instead, I will conduct you into the presence of Her Voice on Earth, [FromFrom.GetBestName]. Remember that during the course of this ritual, which is quite lengthy, you will be sequestered in Her temple unable to conduct the affairs of state, and a regent will be appointed to handle things in your absence.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual;Yes. I shall not waver from my decision.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTBarinnitis_ritual;Er... What was I thinking? This was a bad idea all along. Call it off.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinniti_in_flesh.4;It has been much too long since you entered seclusion in the temple. Recently your sleep has been disturbed by dreams of Arinniti, which you have discussed with Her Voice for guidance. With this morning's dream, finally all are agreed... you have been chosen to be the vessel of Her spirit in this world... Arinniti in Flesh.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_ritual_complete;Praise Arinniti! I am yours, my Goddess.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x

 

[futuregary]

I still think that Indo-Hellenic religions should be able to marry indians religions, due to the location of Bactria, I am far more likely to encounter another indian over a graeco-roman guy who is outside the religious group.

Though this brings up an interesting idea, could religions 'evolve' IG? what I mean by that is that for instance, if you have several buddhist provinces and another indo-hellenic religion, perhaps after several generations they evolve into Eusebian provinces to repersent syncrentisim of religion? No idea if this is possible or not though.

Speaking of polytheist religions, I am wondering if it is possible to have more ways to show the different cults of influence within a realm? with different priesthoods and so forth?

Some of them should be able to under our definition. Sindhian Hindu and could marry religions that are Indian in Civilization, and Eusebeian and marry Buddhist religions. When you think about it, none of the religions (except for Sindhian Hindu) in the Indo-Hellenic group are even on the Indian peninsula, so there's no reason for them to "import" brides from a faith that doesn't have much in common.

I absolutely agree about this second one; it's actually kind of how I plan to have Tengriism change into Mani Tanrili, Buda Tanrili, and Kong Tanrili (since there are no longer heresy mechanics in place for them). It would spread basically the same way heresies would, but under more specified circumstances. In some cases, it could come about as a result of proselytization. The problem with applying this to Indo-Hellenic religions is that the different syncretisms of Indo-Hellenic nature are actually their own organized (and state-led, so politics are involved) faiths with sway and influence. It isn't only a result of local cultures mixing together.

 

[Numahr]

Some of them should be able to under our definition. Sindhian Hindu and could marry religions that are Indian in Civilization, and Eusebeian and marry Buddhist religions. When you think about it, none of the religions (except for Sindhian Hindu) in the Indo-Hellenic group are even on the Indian peninsula, so there's no reason for them to "import" brides from a faith that doesn't have much in common.

This is it. look at the characteristics of these religions and you know with whom they can marry. For a Pyromantic ruler, marrying his daughter with a Zoroastrian noble is super-hype, but not at all to a Hindu. Basically the scope for intermarriage for indohellenic religions is: graeco-roman + the religion involved for the fusion (Zoroastrian, Hindu, Budhist respectively, as a group each). The most syncretical of all, the one with Traditional soul, a bit weaker otherwise, has the advantage that it has a flexible doctrine and can do all three.

I absolutely agree about this second one; it's actually kind of how I plan to have Tengriism change into Mani Tanrili, Buda Tanrili, and Kong Tanrili (since there are no longer heresy mechanics in place for them). It would spread basically the same way heresies would, but under more specified circumstances. In some cases, it could come about as a result of proselytization. The problem with applying this to Indo-Hellenic religions is that the different syncretisms of Indo-Hellenic nature are actually their own organized (and state-led, so politics are involved) faiths with sway and influence. It isn't only a result of local cultures mixing together.

Indeed

---
Nice draft for the Arinniti's events, just out of curiosity, how does [FromFrom.GetBestName] work? Is this the Head?

 

[richvh]

Nice draft for the Arinniti's events, just out of curiosity, how does [FromFrom.GetBestName] work? Is this the Head?

That's what it's supposed to be, but looking at the decision and event chain I messed up. I either have insert an event, or change the target order to get what I want working.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Yea, well Dis Pater is not hades, the roman equvillant is Pluto. Besides I do suggest having either Apollo or Demeter as they had much larger cults within the Graeco-Roman world over Hades.

Using Roman holidays here are some additional festivals

Ares/Mars:
Kalends of Mars - This was the roman new year and it took place around the first of March, it was also dedicated to his mother Juno(Hera), but primarly it was dedicated to Mars as this was his birthday. Laruals would be placed up around the houses of the priests and other public buildings. There were dancers called Salii along with men called the Agonenses who dressed in ceromaniol armor from time gone by. After the procession, there was a feast.

Relatedly around the time of march(which in general was sacred to mars) was the festival of Equirria which were horse races dedicated to the god that according to legend were started by Romulus himself. It was actually two festivals one at the end of feburary and the other in march. Mixing these two festivals into one for an IG festival to Ares/Mars.

Hermes/Mercury - surprisingly little, but there is the festival of Mercuralia from my quick searching is traditionally the birthday of the Patron of Merchants (this day is also sacred to Maia, his mother). Merchants draw water from the aqua Mercurii — a sacred spring tied to Mercury — in jars cleansed by fumigation. With a bough of laurel, the merchant then sprinkles both his merchandise and himself with water from the jars. Mercury is closely associated with merchants and traders, and they hold this day as a feast day.

Zeus/Jupiter - again not sure, the romans, like the greeks, have plenty of festivals to Jupiter/Zeus. But there are few that just stand out as more important then the rest to me. All are equally important, the only one that might be more important is the Olympic Games but they are tied to a location. and as mentioned there was that crazy idea I mentioned relating to them.




I still think that Indo-Hellenic religions should be able to marry indians religions, due to the location of Bactria, I am far more likely to encounter another indian over a graeco-roman guy who is outside the religious group.

Though this brings up an interesting idea, could religions 'evolve' IG? what I mean by that is that for instance, if you have several buddhist provinces and another indo-hellenic religion, perhaps after several generations they evolve into Eusebian provinces to repersent syncrentisim of religion? No idea if this is possible or not though.


Speaking of polytheist religions, I am wondering if it is possible to have more ways to show the different cults of influence within a realm? with different priesthoods and so forth?

I have to object to some of these things.

First, the cult of Ares. In all my years I've never heard of an important cult to Ares. True, cult did evolve differently in Greece, but Ares has always remained a very strange god, almost a fossile. He has a place in the myths and the legends and people know him, but he's the brutal and savage god of other times. His mischieves are way less evident than those of Zeus, Hermes or Poseidon (probably the biggest prick in the whole pantheon after Zeus), and his cult has always appeared very local or very vague, contrasting with that of Athena, the other war goddess.

True also, all this could be a result of the overwhelmigly athenian-leaning sources we have, with some few exceptions. But while Ares is present in the Greeks' mentality and religiosity, he's also hard to fit into the Hellenistic whole frame of thought. He's a fossile of older times, a reminder of savage war and brutal slaughter. I've heard that, while Athena represents civilised war and strategy, Ares is the god of personal martial prowess, but even in Sparta his cult is presumed to be quite small. Later, the Greeks assimilated their old Ares to Roman Mars. Mars, who was very different, the warrior god of protection and defense of the homestead.

Granted, year-1066 Greeks could have just worship a different Ares, one that's much more Mars than old Ares, but still, I'd rather have another god (or concept) in the Pantheon, like Apollo, Herakles (Hercules must be on a Graeco-Roman pantheon, it was one of the most worshipped gods in Late Antiquity), Cybele or even Deus Ignotus (just for fun).

Second... no Saturnalia?

 

[DarkReborn]

As I said... the festival is not going to be any specific one, yes, not even Saturnalia, since then I'd have to code other important festivals, like Lupercalia or Quinquatria ,separately and that'd be a real mess. More like, it's going to be an abstraction of all the god-specific public festivals into a single one, which you can dedicate to each god, then you'll get a flavour description related to a real festival of that god (for example, a festival dedicated to Mars will feature ad description based on the rather obscure Armilustrium festival ) and pick one of three options for an act of evergetism, as Numahr said it, this is, building a new shrine to X god, or a new statue to it or beautify it's local temple.

I'm just starting with it though, and it's going to involve writing up a lot of descriptions and searching for appropriate festivals... if anyone wants to know roughly the list of deities and religions that are getting the decision... well:

# Choose a god to dedicate the festival to
character_event = {
	id = lux_graecoromanfest.2
	desc = "EVTDESC310004"
	picture = GFX_evt_lunatic
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA310004" #Zeus
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_zeus
	}
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB310004" #Mars
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_mars
	}
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTC310004" #Athena
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_athena
	}
	
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTD310004" #Sol Invictus
		trigger = {
			religion = sol
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_sol_invictus
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTF310004" #Apollo-Helios
		trigger = {
			religion = sol_apollo
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_apollo
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTG310004" #Dionysus (non-polytheist)
		trigger = {
			religion = dionysos
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_dionysos
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTH310004" #Divinized Emperors
		trigger = {
			religion = roman_imperial
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_imperator
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTI310004" #Megas Alexandros
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = alexandros
				religion = solomon_alexandros
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_alexandros
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTJ310004" #Jupiter Optimus Maximus
		trigger = {
			religion = jupiter
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_jupiter
	}
	option = {
		name = "othergods"
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		character_event = { id = lux_graecoromanfest.3 }
	}
}


# Choose a god to dedicate the festival to if polytheist (part 2)
character_event = {
	id = lux_graecoromanfest.3
	desc = "EVTDESC310005"
	picture = GFX_evt_lunatic
	
	is_triggered_only = yes

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA310005" #Dionysus (polytheist)
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_dionysos
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB310005" #Aphrodite
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_aphrodite
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTC310005" #Herakles
		trigger = {
			OR = {
				religion = graeco_roman
				religion = graeco_roman_reformed
			}
		}
		set_character_flag = festival_herakles
	}
	option = {
		name = "othergods"
		character_event = { id = lux_graecoromanfest.2 }
	}
}

That's a lot as you can see, and I had to cut down a lot to find the middle ground, so I hope to have everyone happy with it.


On other news the Irminsul decision is done and uploaded... so I'm working on this one right now. It's going to take a lot more to get this one done though... so don't expect it any time soon.

 

[vyshan]

I have to object to some of these things.

First, the cult of Ares. In all my years I've never heard of an important cult to Ares. True, cult did evolve differently in Greece, but Ares has always remained a very strange god, almost a fossile. He has a place in the myths and the legends and people know him, but he's the brutal and savage god of other times. His mischieves are way less evident than those of Zeus, Hermes or Poseidon (probably the biggest prick in the whole pantheon after Zeus), and his cult has always appeared very local or very vague, contrasting with that of Athena, the other war goddess.

True also, all this could be a result of the overwhelmigly athenian-leaning sources we have, with some few exceptions. But while Ares is present in the Greeks' mentality and religiosity, he's also hard to fit into the Hellenistic whole frame of thought. He's a fossile of older times, a reminder of savage war and brutal slaughter. I've heard that, while Athena represents civilised war and strategy, Ares is the god of personal martial prowess, but even in Sparta his cult is presumed to be quite small. Later, the Greeks assimilated their old Ares to Roman Mars. Mars, who was very different, the warrior god of protection and defense of the homestead.

As mentioned below the reason for picking ares is that in the Patron deity system, he is one of the choosable deities. Here is theoi's link for information on his cult; side note that site is amazing for information on Greek Religion and Mythology. Ares did have a cult it may not have been more well known as that of Apollo or Athena, but his cult was everywhere, after all the Acropolis contines a temple dedicated to Ares. Speaking of Ares, one of my favorite myths about him is the myth about his trial. While Ares rules over war, he also has an influence in Courage and Fear; not surprising though as those emotions run high when dealing with war. Tis just an aspect of his that people may have overlooked.

As I said... the festival is not going to be any specific one, yes, not even Saturnalia, since then I'd have to code other important festivals, like Lupercalia or Quinquatria ,separately and that'd be a real mess. More like, it's going to be an abstraction of all the god-specific public festivals into a single one, which you can dedicate to each god, then you'll get a flavour description related to a real festival of that god (for example, a festival dedicated to Mars will feature ad description based on the rather obscure Armilustrium festival ) and pick one of three options for an act of evergetism, as Numahr said it, this is, building a new shrine to X god, or a new statue to it or beautify it's local temple.

That event works Mainly I was looking at trying to add say a single decision and small event for picking one of of the 6 gods through the patron deity system. Ie you picked athena, you get to host 1 additional festival as a sponsor of her cult. Maybe it is too much work, but I thought it would be neat.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

As mentioned below the reason for picking ares is that in the Patron deity system, he is one of the choosable deities. Here is theoi's link for information on his cult; side note that site is amazing for information on Greek Religion and Mythology. Ares did have a cult it may not have been more well known as that of Apollo or Athena, but his cult was everywhere, after all the Acropolis contines a temple dedicated to Ares. Speaking of Ares, one of my favorite myths about him is the myth about his trial. While Ares rules over war, he also has an influence in Courage and Fear; not surprising though as those emotions run high when dealing with war. Tis just an aspect of his that people may have overlooked.

I'm not saying Ares didn't have a cult, I'm saying the relationship the Greeks had with Ares in the Hellenistic era was a very special one, and that, to them, Ares might have been seen more as a force of nature than as a more humane, relatable god like Herakles, Zeus, Apollo, etc. And this article is giving me more reason to believe so, since Ares seems to have the strongest worship in regions the Greek considered backwards or semi-barbarian, like Thessaly or Thrace.

Nevermind, however, since the pantheon also has to englobe Roman gods, right? And Mars is one of the central pillars of Roman worship in the Republic and early Empire. So nevermind what I said, even if I think Ares might not be the best pick, Mars surely is.