This thread is to discuss China, Japan, Korea, Manchuria, Tibet and any other relevant states.
3 Manchu is not China, China shall be only Southern Ming, if Japan has conquered the whole China and made the "Anschluss" the name of new kingdom can't be China even they've moved the captial to Peking.
I am sorry but I must disagree here, the Manchu invaded China and set up the Qing Dynasty which is considered to be a Chinese Dynasty by pretty much everybody.
Secondly, an analogy to Japan invading is rather misleading in my opinion, a better one would be when the Mongols invaded and moved the capital to Beijing. As I am sure you know this was the Yuan Dynasty and is also considered to be China. This is because instead of forcing their culture onto China (like the Spanish did to the Americas) the invaders instead slowly adopted Chinese culture.
Basically it was a fact that Nurhaci officially declared independent from Ming in 1616, but there's a difficult question: If we remove Manchu from 1419 scenario, how can we reconstract Ming-to-Qing sequence?1 Manchu arose in 1616, before that time Ming has a good control of the tribes, how is it that Manchu has existed for so long?
I agree with you. Li Zicheng died in 1645 and his remnants were absorbed by Southen Ming.In 1648 ,Li Zicheng had disappeared (or killed) for 3 years, so Dashun shall not even exist.
It seems slightly different from my knowledge: Zhang Xianzhong, the emperor of Da Xi, lost Chengdu in 1646 and was killed in a battle on 20th October in the same year. His remnants withdrew to Chongqing and continued their fight until 1659. They joined Southern Ming in 1652 as you say.Zhang Xianzhong owned Sichuan Pendi in 1648
Zhang's rest army joined Southern Ming in 1652. and you get one free tag.
I agree that nowadays a lot of historians accept that Yuan was unique as a Chinese dynasty.
Yes.I note however that you still refer to it as a Chinese Dynasty, just a unique one.
There is a typo on the map.And how can province Sichuan (owned by Chagtai Khanate) be there? or it appears that they had just a same name as a Chinese province Sichuan (Sichuan pendi)?
Roughly speaking, Japanese regard Toyotomi Hideyoshi in his old age as a kind of paranoid. I can't answer your question because it seems absolutely nonsense even to imagine that Japan could conquer China.Had some Japanese supposed that if Toyotomi had conquered China through Korea and that would be another 'Chinese Dynasty'?
In contrast, China itself has a lot of good examples within its history because a lot of Chinese dynasties had their roots in non-Han-Chinese ethnic groups. We may say that there were just few dynasties which were established by Han-Chinese; Han; Song; and Ming. In this view, we can say that Qing was just another Chinese dynasty.
In addition, what the word "Han-Chinese" means is very differ from age to age because Han-Chinese themselves have done fusion after fusion throughout its history. So how can we define a dynasty whether it's a "purely Chinese" or not?
In conclusion, I can accept Qing as a non-Chinese dynasty if it bases on reliable studies. However, if it comes from simple nationalism, I have to say no; nationalism is a modern concept which can be hardly applied for the Middle Age.
Are they correct?4 in 1648, as Manchurian army were marching into China they killed almost everyone and burned every villages as they saw, so the resist against them shall be very strong, and even until 1707 the royalists are still following the Ming-prince.