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Nelson007

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unmerged(94570)

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1 Manchu arose in 1616, before that time Ming has a good control of the tribes, how is it that Manchu has existed for so long?
2 Manchurian Cavalary was very strong, so can it be fierce cold weapon cavalary modifications for some nation? I guess not only Manchuria shall benefit from it, Manchu got Artillery technique since the Chinese Artillery officer Kong Youde had joined Manchurian Army(between 1631~1637).
3 Manchu is not China, China shall be only Southern Ming, if Japan has conquered the whole China and made the "Anschluss" the name of new kingdom can't be China even they've moved the captial to Peking.
4 in 1648, as Manchurian army were marching into China they killed almost everyone and burned every villages as they saw, so the resist against them shall be very strong, and even until 1707 the royalists are still following the Ming-prince.
 

unmerged(94570)

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In 1648 ,Li Zicheng had disappeared (or killed) for 3 years, so Dashun shall not even exist.
Zhang Xianzhong owned Sichuan Pendi in 1648
Zhang's rest army joined Southern Ming in 1652. and you get one free tag.

You shall notice that Manchurian army suffers a quite strong resistance as Japan had 300 years later, not so simply in the game.
 
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unmerged(94570)

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As selecting, Southern Ming in 1648 appeas with very easy, Eco very strong, Mil and Dip Strong, while in 1419 it appearing normal weak medium weak.
At that time (1648) Southern Ming is more danger to die than Chiang Kai Shek, If you play HOI you can't rename Kuomin-Tang to West-Minguo and Japan as China, so

And if Southern Ming(China) survives, it shall not suffer the bad events that Manchu shall get, Manchu get what she sows like burning books, restyling hairstyles etc.

Our people had been killed and ensklaved for 266 years, please leave us a dream to stand!!!Si vous plai^t!!
 

Nelson007

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....there is no need for you to have a overexcitement about it

That is just a game.....
 

Kiesenberg

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3 Manchu is not China, China shall be only Southern Ming, if Japan has conquered the whole China and made the "Anschluss" the name of new kingdom can't be China even they've moved the captial to Peking.

I am sorry but I must disagree here, the Manchu invaded China and set up the Qing Dynasty which is considered to be a Chinese Dynasty by pretty much everybody.

Secondly, an analogy to Japan invading is rather misleading in my opinion, a better one would be when the Mongols invaded and moved the capital to Beijing. As I am sure you know this was the Yuan Dynasty and is also considered to be China. This is because instead of forcing their culture onto China (like the Spanish did to the Americas) the invaders instead slowly adopted Chinese culture.
 
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unmerged(94570)

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I am sorry but I must disagree here, the Manchu invaded China and set up the Qing Dynasty which is considered to be a Chinese Dynasty by pretty much everybody.

Secondly, an analogy to Japan invading is rather misleading in my opinion, a better one would be when the Mongols invaded and moved the capital to Beijing. As I am sure you know this was the Yuan Dynasty and is also considered to be China. This is because instead of forcing their culture onto China (like the Spanish did to the Americas) the invaders instead slowly adopted Chinese culture.

Who had told you that Mongolian Empire had adopted chinese culture?[evidence please], Yuan shall also not be a Chinese Dynasty, they are now widely hated throughout people who read history quite a lot. The time had changed, in old books of Chinese history you've read they were regarded as a Chinese dynasty because at that time we only know that they ruled China, but the criteria has been changed.
They still use Mongolian language and alphabets and their shamanic/buddhism religion and many mongolian words had been appeared in Chinese like "Paimapi",but they are not changed, they had just enjoyed being served for 89 then they left China, and their law of "Droit de seigneur" results chinese brides to kill their first child. And many of their laws were succeeded in the Ming-Dynasty, for e.g. the job of the father shall be inherited by the sons.

If you say adopting Chinese culture, Japan had really adopted Chinese culture, Chinese can understand 70% of the meaning of Japanese Kanji, and if Japan had taken whole China you can also say "adopted Chinese culture" according to your way, if Toyotomi Hideyoshi had successfully conquered whole China.
 
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unmerged(94570)

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In the Yuan dynasty, the Mongolian Ruler had planned that to kill all Chinese who had the 5 most popular family name like "Wang" "Zhang" "Zhao" etc should be all killed(but it can't be excuted), and if a Mongolian beats a Chinese he shall not resist, and if a Mongolian killed a Chinese the killer shall only pay for the bury, according to our criteria nowadays,as the 'human right' the western always mention, it would be an offence of calling it a "Chinese" dynasty[this opinion is not offical, but popular among history readers] to some people, but since the westerns don't know the Chinese history,it doesn't matter a lot.

But many western know that Scotland <Brave heart>, they can distinguish between a Xenocracy with Jus primae noctis and a Union later.
 

unmerged(72200)

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I agree that nowadays a lot of historians accept that Yuan was unique as a Chinese dynasty. However, it seems that there are a bit misinterpretations of facts in your opinion.

1. Yuan kept using Mongolian language and alphabets as an official language, but they used Chinese for official documents simultaneously.
2. Yuan was tolerant of the religions. They protected not only Buddhism but also Confucianism.
3. A lot of Chinese officials kept their loyalty for Yuan even after Ming beaten Yuan down. If Yuan had been completely different from any other Chinese dynasty, there could have never been such a thing.

And Qing dynasty was synicized by far more quickly than Yuan. Basically Qing kept up Ming's system, so the majority of historians consider them together and often call them "Ming-Qing empire".
 
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unmerged(72200)

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@kevinxu

1 Manchu arose in 1616, before that time Ming has a good control of the tribes, how is it that Manchu has existed for so long?
Basically it was a fact that Nurhaci officially declared independent from Ming in 1616, but there's a difficult question: If we remove Manchu from 1419 scenario, how can we reconstract Ming-to-Qing sequence?
IMO, we should keep Manchu as an independent nation because Ming could hardly rule Manchu tribes directly like as other normal parts of their empire. At least we should allow Manchu to go independent from Ming around 1430, when the Xuande Emperor abandoned ruling Manchu directly.

In 1648 ,Li Zicheng had disappeared (or killed) for 3 years, so Dashun shall not even exist.
I agree with you. Li Zicheng died in 1645 and his remnants were absorbed by Southen Ming.
So IMO, we should change 1648 scenario as below:
- Remove Da Shun
- Let Shanxi be owned and controlled by China

Zhang Xianzhong owned Sichuan Pendi in 1648
Zhang's rest army joined Southern Ming in 1652. and you get one free tag.
It seems slightly different from my knowledge: Zhang Xianzhong, the emperor of Da Xi, lost Chengdu in 1646 and was killed in a battle on 20th October in the same year. His remnants withdrew to Chongqing and continued their fight until 1659. They joined Southern Ming in 1652 as you say.
So IMO, we should change 1648 scenario as below:
- Let Da Xi own Sichuan Pendi only
- Let Da Xi be ruled by Sun Kewang (r.1646-52), who took over the late Zhang Xianzhong
- Make a new event which let Southern Ming inherit Da Xi in 1652
Otherwise:
- Remove Da Xi
- Let Sichuan Pendi be owned by China and controlled by rebels
 
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I agree that nowadays a lot of historians accept that Yuan was unique as a Chinese dynasty.

I note however that you still refer to it as a Chinese Dynasty, just a unique one.
 

unmerged(72200)

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I note however that you still refer to it as a Chinese Dynasty, just a unique one.
Yes.
Generally speaking, Yuan can be compared with Norman dynasty of England. Both of them brought a number of their original systems, traditions, languages, and cultures, but they are commonly regarded as dynasties of each conquered country.

But it doesn't matter in the context of AGCEEP. We should focus on the character of Qing -- as I mentioned, Qing was a dynasty which accepted Chinese culture far more quickly and deeply than Yuan.
 
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unmerged(94570)

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Hmm, you are somewhere right, Waishi, I don't know whether I've offenced your country as I mentioned Japan. You know Chinese history better than me,(or just wikied?:rolleyes:) but anyway it refers my ancestors and brotherhoodlike feelings, maybe I am too extrem mean so called 'patriotic' .

Had some Japanese supposed that if Toyotomi had conquered China through Korea and that would be another 'Chinese Dynasty'?

Anyway, there would be many mods.

At that time (1648) Manchu had conquered many provinces of Southern-Ming, can we just suppose that these provinces were owned by Southern-Ming but Manchu had taken them during the war in that scenario?
 

unmerged(94570)

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And how can province Sichuan (owned by Chagtai Khanate) be there? or it appears that they had just a same name as a Chinese province Sichuan (Sichuan pendi)?

Or it indicates that I slept in the geographic lessons?:eek:o

PS:Waishi you are really polite.
 

unmerged(72200)

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Had some Japanese supposed that if Toyotomi had conquered China through Korea and that would be another 'Chinese Dynasty'?
Roughly speaking, Japanese regard Toyotomi Hideyoshi in his old age as a kind of paranoid. I can't answer your question because it seems absolutely nonsense even to imagine that Japan could conquer China.

In contrast, China itself has a lot of good examples within its history because a lot of Chinese dynasties had their roots in non-Han-Chinese ethnic groups. You may say that there were just few dynasties which were established by Han-Chinese: Han, Song, and Ming. In this view, you can say that Qing was just another Chinese dynasty.
In addition, what the word "Han-Chinese" means is very differ from age to age because Han-Chinese themselves have done fusion after fusion throughout its history. So how can you define a dynasty whether it's a "purely Chinese" or not?

In conclusion, I can accept Qing as a non-Chinese dynasty if it bases on reliable studies. However, if it comes from simple nationalism, I have to say no; nationalism is a modern concept which can be hardly applied for the Middle Age.
 
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unmerged(94570)

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In contrast, China itself has a lot of good examples within its history because a lot of Chinese dynasties had their roots in non-Han-Chinese ethnic groups. We may say that there were just few dynasties which were established by Han-Chinese; Han; Song; and Ming. In this view, we can say that Qing was just another Chinese dynasty.
In addition, what the word "Han-Chinese" means is very differ from age to age because Han-Chinese themselves have done fusion after fusion throughout its history. So how can we define a dynasty whether it's a "purely Chinese" or not?

In conclusion, I can accept Qing as a non-Chinese dynasty if it bases on reliable studies. However, if it comes from simple nationalism, I have to say no; nationalism is a modern concept which can be hardly applied for the Middle Age.

Generally I would stop discuss here to save the place but you had pushed too far further.
I've opened a new thread that we can go there.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10461818#post10461818
In conclusion, I can accept Qing as a Chinese dynasty if it grants its citizen with the basic human right of surviving. However, if it is based on mass massacre, ruining and enslaving and ethnical discrimination, I have to say no; ethnical massacre as Manchu had done on is a barbaric behavior which can be hardly accepted by civilization.
 
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unmerged(72200)

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I have some more questions.

4 in 1648, as Manchurian army were marching into China they killed almost everyone and burned every villages as they saw, so the resist against them shall be very strong, and even until 1707 the royalists are still following the Ming-prince.
Are they correct?
I've read that Manchu could get a certain amount of supports by ex-Ming's officials because Manchu defeated Da Shun which annihilated Ming. (Of course I know that Southern Ming resisted fiercely and sometimes managed to win until 1659 in the south of Changjiang river.)

And who fought until 1707?
I've read that the last emperor of Southern Ming was killed in 1661 in Yunnan. Even after that descendants of Zheng Zhilong continued their fight until 1683 in Taiwan, but I think there weren't any notable pro-Ming power in mainland China by that time.