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AirikrStrife

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Jul 30, 2010
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The scope of this suggestion is a little bit vague, my main intent was just to suggest some representation of the Unio Trium Nationum, which before 1.30 had osme representation through the estate system, but doesn't seem to have anymore. At the same time I have been studying the reformation a lot and got interested in unitarianism and just by the speed of it I wiped up a new hungary map.

So I will start with my map. Neondt said he wasn't gonna update hungary in 1.30 because he didn't see a reason to fix something that isn't broken according to himself. I went ahead and did what I ocnsidered a modest rework of hungary putting the criteria on myself that I would not add any new area which gave me a hard limit of four new provinces to add, which I found to be reasonably balanced and fair to give to hungary.

Skärmbild (67).png

I forgott to put numbers on the map, but yeah black = transdanubia area, yellow = alföld, red =slovakia, green = upper hungary and blue = transylvania
New province in southern half of Sopron is Kanizsa and new slovakian (red province) is nograd. Honestly my focus was on partium/transylvania so I based the two provinces of this map, representing the austrian captaincy between balaton and drava and the hungarian conquest in slovakia

1596320504952.png


The difficulties of making hungarian map is that hungary had so many ocunties not all can be represented and then that the post 1526 border between royal, ottoman hungary and principality of transylvania shifted so often it's difficult to decide on a decent amount of province that are all accurate and whatnot.

In Partium/transylvania my additions are more thougt through. I added a bistritia province (in transylvania) giving access between moldavia and transylvania. Honestly a bit confused by the amount of people pointing out the necessity of such a passage and paradox never addressing it.

I also redraw Bihar province as most of the historical Bihar county is not in the in game province (see picture below)
New yellow province is Arad/Zarand often divided between ottoman hungary and transylvania but it made more sense to make it one provicne then trying to divide it between different provinces
New green province is Satu Mare, combining the territory of Satu Mare/szatmar and Bereg. An area whith a propering mining industry trade goods should be copper

1596320862652.png

Note position of Bihar. Area of upper hungary is based on the austrian captaincy and the territorium of partium (I didn't use that area name because anachronistic if hungary are never partitioned)
1596320886084.png



Let's go to the issue of religion.
Transylvania became at times a bastion of religious tolerance and humanism with protestantism, catholicism and unitarianism flourishing. Unitarianism being a branch of the reformation that rejected the idea of trinity and instead went neo-arian. The religion became influential in transylvania and later spread globally and became a sort ofi ntelelctual religion very popular with scientist such as Isaac Newton. I think it is unlikely PDX would consider adding unitarianism as it's own religion, so I didn''t bother trying to come up with a mechanic for it, but honestly I think it would be really cool and I think PDX should strive to create more alt-history possibilities.

However Unitarianism is 'represented' in the game, as a +2 tolerance of true fate in the transylvanian national ideas. This don't seem too thought out. An idea called Unitarian zeal gives tolerance of true fate despite unitarians not existing in game.


The main thing I wanted to mention though is the absence of the representation of transylvanian saxons and szekely, well exceprt as a 15% cavalry CA in the national ideas for transylvania.

There Unio Trium Nationum were the defining political feature of transylvania throughout the timeline of the game, and when transylvania was ocnquered by Michael the Brave he kept the institutions intact. The szkeleys and saxons were important part of the economy and military.

I had some ideas of how this could be represented, missions, events, decisions, estate privileges. No matter what I suggest I think pdx will come up with their own solution if they decide to have a look at the topic so I'm not gonna go head over heals for a fancy solution. I decided on events, once a country with transylvanian or romanian primary culture controls kiralyföld or Maros, relevant event fires asking if player wants to safeguard the traditional privileges of saxons(kiralyföld) and szekelys (maros) either denying them and gaining some unrest, or accepting them and gaining a provincem odifier giving permanent +25% autonomy and +10% goods produced (kiralyföld) or +10% manpower modifier (maros)

That's it for my thread.
 
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talking rest of romania, wallachia is good but modlavia should be redrawn according to @fr-rein s map (no new provinces)
1596321970046.png
 
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The largest problem with hungary and balkans in general is large inaccuracy and sheer weakness of Hungary and in general under representation of power in eastern europe and balkans.

Now obviously development =/= population,

but if we look at some of the development of countries vs what we know historically their population was roughly.

Population for 1500, development for 1444, dev/pop (in mil)
Western Europe:
England (wales and england) - 2.5 Million - Ingame: 246 Dev - 98.4 dev/million
Naples - 2 Million - Ingame: 100 Dev - 50 dev/million
Venice - 1.5 Million - Ingame: 175 Dev 116.6 dev/million
Spain - roughly 8 Million - Combined Ingame: 534 Dev - 67.3 dev/million
France - roughly 15 Million - Combined Ingame: 684 Dev 45.6 dev/million
Low Countries (Belgium + NL) - roughly 2.5 Million Combined Ingame Dev - 257 dev - 102.8 dev/million
Germany - Too hard to Calculate -
Austria - roughly 2 Million - Ingame: 171 Dev - 85 dev/million

Northern Europe:
Denmark - 0.6 Million - Ingame: 128 dev - 213 dev/million
Sweden(&Finland) - 0.85 Million - Ingame 119 Dev - 140 dev/million
Norway - 0.3 Million - Ingame: 84 Dev - 280 dev/million

Eastern Europe:
Hungary - 3 Million - Ingame: 176 Dev - 58.6 dev/million
Croatia - 1 Million - Ingame: 41 Dev - 41 dev/million
Poland - 3.9 Million - Ingame (With danzig corridor) : 267 Dev - 68.5 dev/million
Lithuania - 3.5 Million - Ingame: 268 Dev - 76.6 dev/million

Hungary and Croatia really fall at the bottom here, which is sad, because historically they were a powerhouse until the battle of mohacs.

I would love to see the possibility of Hungary performing the feats that Matthias Corvinus pulled off:

1596358741413.png


But sadly, they generally fail much earlier or get Personal Union'd by Austria because of the Ladislaus inaccuracies.

Region wise and general area wise the biggest problems are the Mur and Drava rivers not nicely lining up and Slovenian Styria (Celje) being smaller then it should be and Varazdin extending too far north. Bosnian provinces being very odd with names not appropriate and generally being very weak in general.

Lake Balaton is too far south and should be further north.

Then there is the problem in Eastern Hungary with the Principality of Transylvania being split between Northern and Southern, but both being very oddly located while a better choice would have been adding in just one Transylvanian state

1596359352375.png


Similarly, they should probably seperate the area of Bihar, eastern Bekes (arad or zarand) and a split of Northern Bihar into szatmar together into Crisana or Körösvidék


With Transylvania like this, it makes also a lot of sense adding in the Banat/Vojvodina, with Torontal and Temes, but Krasso, Keve or western Severin could be added here as well.

1596359489729.png


Maramaros and some other eastern slovakian provinces (mostly zemplen) could make up a carpathia area.
 
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If it was up to me, I would change it in this order.

1596362019822.png


First up Moldova and Wallachia.

I would add two provinces to each and pretty much change the way they look in many regards. They should add the areas/states of Bessarabia and Oltenia. Add another province to each,

For Bessarabia it should be split between bassarabia, Tighina and I would add Balti in the North. I would then also add Bacau to western moldova, and move Suceava to be Bucovina.

In Wallachia, I would rework Oltenia and add in Targu Jiu in the north east. For wallachia proper I would add in Ilfov with the capital of Bucaresti.

I would also rework the Carpathian Wastelands and add in the Southern One and make it possible to cross into Moldova from Transylvania, maybe even from Buzau.

Also, Silistre should be renamed to Constanta, its where it's capital is pointing.

Hungary itself should be heavily reworked.

Transylvania should be a single state/area.

Bihar, Arad (south of Bihar) and Szatmar (north of Bihar) should form a state of Crisana.

The Banat should be an area with 1 more province, splitting Temes into Lugoj and should include Bacs as that is now part of Vojvodina in Serbia.

Pest should be split between Pest and Kiskun and should be added to the Alfold state with Szolnok, Szabolcs and Bekes.

Transdanubia should be reworked with splitting up both Sopron into Vas or Zala and Somogy being split into Barajna or Tolna. Lake Balaton needs to be moved North.

Slovakia should be reworked into either a Nitra area, with Pozsony being split into Nitra (province). And the southern portion making up Komarom.

Then Lastly I would add in a carpathian area with Szepes being split into Kosice and Zemplen split into Bereg.
 
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I would also rework the Carpathian Wastelands and add in the Southern One and make it possible to cross into Moldova from Transylvania, maybe even from Buzau.

I support the pass idea strongly. But with one "but", about Buzau.

In my opinion ability to walk into Transylvania from Buzau is something that should not be the case from strategic point of view. In particular in terms of defense - for Hungary, in case it is owning Transylvania, it'll be a pain if Ottomans own Wallachia and walk in their Transylvania underbelly that easily. Not that correct either.

The inability to get to Transylvania from Buzau also makes Moldova way more strategic location for Ottomans, Poland, Hungary and any other player in region... which was one of Moldova's strengths during the time period. Right now it is quite irrelevant for Poland and Hungary due to the geography, even if it was a quite desired area with quite strong duchy.

For Bessarabia it should be split between bassarabia, Tighina and I would add Balti in the North. I would then also add Bacau to western moldova, and move Suceava to be Bucovina.

I suggested to not add any province... because, well, current borders are quite awful and don't make much sense. Adding more is hard since it would requiere to split area and that's a thing that is harder to do and thus less likely to happen.

I more or less agree on the way to split Bessarabia (except that north should be Hotin and not Balti, since Hotin was more important and known regionally), but in case of Moldavia I would rather have 3 provinces (like in my map) and not 4 - mainly because 3 look already dense enough and make up an area. Having Iasy on both banks of Dniester is also quite questionable, I personally think that it makes the area look worse.

If I were to add 7th province, I would add it to Bessarabia and split Budjak to Budjak and Akkerman (Akkerman having north-eastern part of province) like this:

1596371497629.png


So that 1 - Hotin, 2 - Orhei (or Chisinau), 3 - Budjak (with Ismail as center), 4 - Akkerman (Cetatea Alba) that includes Tighina. X stands for province capitals.

Cetetea Alba alone, as fortress, was a strategic point and alone with Tighina they can deserve a separate province. Rest of Budjak, of course, deserves to be 1/1/1 steppe as it pretty much was at the time. But then again, it is still fairly simple to keep Budjak as one province and would probably be better... I just don't see much options to increase number of provinces to 7.
 
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I support the pass idea strongly. But with one "but", about Buzau.

In my opinion ability to walk into Transylvania from Buzau is something that should not be the case from strategic point of view. In particular in terms of defense - for Hungary, in case it is owning Transylvania, it'll be a pain if Ottomans own Wallachia and walk in their Transylvania underbelly that easily. Not that correct either.

The inability to get to Transylvania from Buzau also makes Moldova way more strategic location for Ottomans, Poland, Hungary and any other player in region... which was one of Moldova's strengths during the time period. Right now it is quite irrelevant for Poland and Hungary due to the geography, even if it was a quite desired area with quite strong duchy.



I suggested to not add any province... because, well, current borders are quite awful and don't make much sense. Adding more is hard since it would requiere to split area and that's a thing that is harder to do and thus less likely to happen.

I more or less agree on the way to split Bessarabia (except that north should be Hotin and not Balti, since Hotin was more important and known regionally), but in case of Moldavia I would rather have 3 provinces (like in my map) and not 4 - mainly because 3 look already dense enough and make up an area. Having Iasy on both banks of Dniester is also quite questionable, I personally think that it makes the area look worse.

If I were to add 7th province, I would add it to Bessarabia and split Budjak to Budjak and Akkerman (Akkerman having north-eastern part of province) like this:

View attachment 604821

So that 1 - Hotin, 2 - Orhei (or Chisinau), 3 - Budjak (with Ismail as center), 4 - Akkerman (Cetatea Alba) that includes Tighina. X stands for province capitals.

Cetetea Alba alone, as fortress, was a strategic point and alone with Tighina they can deserve a separate province. Rest of Budjak, of course, deserves to be 1/1/1 steppe as it pretty much was at the time. But then again, it is still fairly simple to keep Budjak as one province and would probably be better... I just don't see much options to increase number of provinces to 7.

I feel the issue with this mostly is the suceava thing, I think there needs to be a representation of bucovina. I think suceava going so far south kinda defeats that idea.
 
If it was up to me, I would change it in this order.


Hungary itself should be heavily reworked.

Transylvania should be a single state/area.

Bihar, Arad (south of Bihar) and Szatmar (north of Bihar) should form a state of Crisana.

The Banat should be an area with 1 more province, splitting Temes into Lugoj and should include Bacs as that is now part of Vojvodina in Serbia.

Pest should be split between Pest and Kiskun and should be added to the Alfold state with Szolnok, Szabolcs and Bekes.

Transdanubia should be reworked with splitting up both Sopron into Vas or Zala and Somogy being split into Barajna or Tolna. Lake Balaton needs to be moved North.

Slovakia should be reworked into either a Nitra area, with Pozsony being split into Nitra (province). And the southern portion making up Komarom.

Then Lastly I would add in a carpathian area with Szepes being split into Kosice and Zemplen split into Bereg.

I like direction of Pbhuh suggestion but i feel that it has to many 5 province states in Hungary. Working of your idea.

- don't split Temes and leave it 3 province state
- Maybe move Szabolcs into your new state Crisana
- And now the MOST important change split Pest even more, and give us Buda!!! (and border of Buda and Pest should follow Danube of course )
- I would leave one of Sopron or Smogy so that Transdanubia has 4 provinces

I think lot of power of Hungary came around Pest area so splitting Pest 3 ways isn't taking it to far.
 
I feel the issue with this mostly is the suceava thing, I think there needs to be a representation of bucovina. I think suceava going so far south kinda defeats that idea.

Actually Suceava is pretty much in borders in Bukovina (more or less). Of course it is a bit more south than it was after the Treaty of Bucharest (1812) but... we must respect that for most purposes Bukovina and Suceava should have somewhat different province borders. Here is the map of the post-treaty border and I think that the suggested Suceava, while not really breaking local administrative logic of Moldavia, does its best to respect the 1812 (8 years before end of the game) border.

Southeast_Europe_1812_map_en.PNG


Also, I have thought about it... and in order to increase the number of provinces in Moldavia Budjak could be moved to the Yedisan region. It would actually reflect better on partitioned borders, logic of the province (it being Steppe), allow Ottomans to properly target it and make it less of a granted region to Moldavia in exchange for the power up they would get by extra province in the Bessarabia.

One of main logics here is that Budjak was still mostly Wild Field type of land during EU4 timeframe and even after the time period it was treated similar to how the region was treated - colonized and settled in XIX century. It doesn't deny Moldova anything, but also gives a better management for the area... as well as incentives to expand to Yedisan.
 
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Gotta say I don't like that Hungary. I feel like this country would really need a normal update finally, adding those 4 provinces wouldn't change anything.
The Drava river is still misplaced, also the Danube around Syrmia, which makes Croatia and Bosnia bigger and Hungary smaller than they should be.
None of the most important cities are represented well, or at all (Kassa (Kaschau-Kosice), Szeged, Debrecen, Brassó (Kronstadt), Kolozsvár (Klausenburg), Esztergom). Regions sometimes are uncorrect, for example Pest does not belong o Transdanubia, but the whole Alföld is pretty messy.

Pbhuh-s version is much more appealing, also the vlach parts.

Just leavin it here, proposed it a year ago, but I didnt get any response from the devs :C
52574940fc9d5a1ee301f477ef8098fd167a877415105346e4536752fd7d0e3829a206bc.jpg

This version would only need 8 new provinces, but could solve literally every existing provinces of Hungary :D
Also you can see where the Drava should be, compared to where it is currently (old province borders).
You can find the whole suggestion in my signature.
 
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Eastern Europe:
Hungary - 3 Million - Ingame: 176 Dev - 58.6 dev/million
Croatia - 1 Million - Ingame: 41 Dev - 41 dev/million
Poland - 3.9 Million - Ingame (With danzig corridor) : 267 Dev - 68.5 dev/million
Lithuania - 3.5 Million - Ingame: 268 Dev - 76.6 dev/million

Hungary and Croatia really fall at the bottom here, which is sad, because historically they were a powerhouse until the battle of mohacs.

Croatia is up to 0.5 million inhabitants in 1500 in game start date borders (Slavonia province should be part of Hungary, not Croatia back then).
Hungary is estimated at 3-5 millions, 4 millions being most common estimate / average back then.
Poland - Lithuania - Hungary should be similar DEV countries. Hungary deserves some 70-80 DEV more given DEV of its neighbours.

Earliest Hungarian province pop estimates you can find here (page 157-159)
I will note that Southern Hungary - Slavonia were the most densely populated places back then. But acc. Hungarian sources modern Slovakia area was the most urban and developed one.
 
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Croatia is up to 0.5 million inhabitants in 1500 in game start date borders (Slavonia province should be part of Hungary, not Croatia back then).
Hungary is estimated at 3-5 millions, 4 millions being most common estimate / average back then.
Poland - Lithuania - Hungary should be similar DEV countries. Hungary deserves some 70-80 DEV more given DEV of its neighbours.

Earliest Hungarian province pop estimates you can find here (page 157-159)
I will note that Southern Hungary - Slavonia were the most densely populated places back then. But acc. Hungarian sources modern Slovakia area was the most urban and developed one.

Slavonia is a tough one. While it should be part of Hungary, it's also ok to give it to croatia, given the culture is slavic and it's historical ties to croatia.
 
This is a tad out of topic, but since Croatia is being discussed, can anyone confirm why Zadar's trade goods are Naval Supplies? Based on my modest knowleddge of its economy back then, Salt, Paper or Wine would be more accurate. If anything, Lika should have the anchor instead of Fish.
I tried looking into Livestock (still about Zadar), but so far I found no record of it at all back then. I may be missing something.
 
This is a tad out of topic, but since Croatia is being discussed, can anyone confirm why Zadar's trade goods are Naval Supplies? Based on my modest knowleddge of its economy back then, Salt, Paper or Wine would be more accurate. If anything, Lika should have the anchor instead of Fish.
I tried looking into Livestock (still about Zadar), but so far I found no record of it at all back then. I may be missing something.

Yea Zara/Zadar should get an other, and since Lika was completely like an inland province (not a single port on it's shores), it could get the naval supplies, referring to the woods od the mountains. But i think Wool would be the best, since only pastoral people had a living there.

This is the trade goods map I mde back then about Hungary:
7245328775a477dd0de3dc36788a71f8f4af3ecd1e21081689d7b153608bb5e39b73692a.jpg

Why is it important at all? Hungary had 2 very important goods to trade: Salt and Cattle. And two secondary businesses: Wine and Mining.

Most of the Plains should produce Livestock, while AT LEAST 3 Salt province should exist in the country, mostly in Transylvania.

Wine producing was important in te regions where I represented it, and also in Syrmia. The mining industry was essential in Central Nitra/slovakia, where towns were often called mining towns.

Besides some provinces should have Grain (Especially Temes and Arad, the famously good soil there is perfect for the crop.

Pest could also have Cloth, since Pest and Buda were the two biggest cities in the country, before Kassa, Szeged and Brassó.

Wool represents eastern, mountainous regions where people lived a pastoral life, and Királyföld might retain it's Cloth.

Regarding trade and CoTs:
Pest naturally have one. I don't think it deserver lvl2 straightout, but was definately the most important.
Pozsony shouldn't be a CoT, it was not that important until the 18th century. It should give it's CoT to Kassa.
Torda (representing Kolozsvár I guess) might be good, but Brassó of Királyföld was more important as a trade center.
I'd give one more CoT to Hungary, to Szeged (current Békés), which was the most important city on the Alföld until the Communist regimes in the 20th decided it's too close to Yugoslavia.
 
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