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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #15 - Slavery

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It’s Thursday again, which means it’s time for another Victoria 3 development diary. Today’s subject of slavery is a rather heavy one, being both one of the most significant political issues of the Victorian era as well a story of untold suffering on a human level. For this reason, before I start getting into the mechanics of slavery I want to briefly explain our philosophy behind its representation in Victoria 3.

Slavery is, obviously, a horrific crime against humanity and precisely for this reason, many games that have a slavery-related setting or mechanics will either leave it out of the game or abstract it into something that’s less ‘on the nose’ (for example by simply applying some form of economic bonus at the expense of decreased stability). For Victoria 3, we don’t think these options work for us for two main reasons.

The first reason is that as I mentioned before, it was an important political issue of the day and was a major catalyst for several significant conflicts, most notably the American Civil War which would be bizarrely contextless if slavery did not play a significant role in the game. The other, and most important reason, is that through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836, so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?

Instead, our aim is to try and represent the institution, systems and causes of slavery, as well as the people who lived under and fought against it, as close to history as we can get it. We simply believe this to be the most respectful way for us to handle this topic, as well as the way that’s most true to the game Victoria 3 aspires to be. With that said, let’s get into the actual mechanics of how slavery and slave pops function in Victoria 3.

As was mentioned in the Employment and Qualifications dev diary, slaves are what Victoria 2 would have called a ‘Pop Type‘ and Victoria 3 calls a ‘Profession‘, but function in a significantly different way from other Pops. For one, slaves do not get hired with the enticement of a wage and do not have the freedom to choose the place they work. Slaves also aren’t just able to stop being slaves by switching their Profession to one that does offer a wage and freedom of movement.

These Slaves are given the bare minimum of goods not to starve, resulting in a very slight population increase over time but a generally miserable existence for the people that make up the Pop
2021_09_14_2.png

Buildings that ‘employ’ slaves also do so in a way that differs from the way they employ other Professions. The gist of how this works is that in a state that has slaves, certain buildings (for example plantations) that employ laborers or peasants can fill each available position for those Professions with either a laborer/peasant or a slave. As an example, a Cotton Plantation in a slave state that has the capacity to employ 4000 laborers could fill that capacity with 2240 slaves and 1760 laborers, 4000 laborers and 0 slaves, or any other combination of the two less or equal to 4000. Generally buildings will prefer acquiring slaves over hiring free laborers whenever possible for the economic benefits it brings.

So what are those economic benefits? Well, first, it should be understood that said economic benefits are mostly for the owners of the building, meaning a bunch of wealthy aristocrats in the case of Cotton Plantations. Instead of paying wages, each building decides a standard of living based on factors such as laws and profitability and purchases the ‘necessary’ goods for that target standard of living. This target SoL may not always be at the level of outright starvation but is never going to be anything but a very basic existence.

The cost to purchase said goods is simply added as a building expense and is virtually always going to be cheaper than employing paid labor, which translates into lower costs, higher profits and increased dividends for the building owners. Slaves also do not pay taxes in any form, so if the government wants to convert those profits into revenue, they have to do so through the various forms of wealth-based taxes that are always going to be deeply unpopular with the powerful elite.

These Tobacco plantations on Cuba have fully replaced the usual Laborer workforce with Slaves instead, leading to greater wealth for the Aristocrats
2021_09_14_1.png

However, there is one economic advantage to slavery that goes a little beyond just enriching aristocrats: Slave pops have a higher ratio of workforce to dependents than other pops, meaning that a population of 100k slaves can supply the labor needs of a greater number of buildings than a population of 100k laborers. The key thing here is of course that not all buildings can utilize slaves, so this isn’t going to be doing any good for an industrialized manufacturing economy, but a country that aims to keep its economy agriculture/plantation-focused and suffers from a labor shortage may find the brutal economics of slavery to work in its favor, if they’re willing to stomach the human cost and stamp down on any resistance.

So what of that resistance? Well, given that slavery is founded entirely on human misery, slaves are naturally not going to be content with their lot in life, and will attempt to resist by whatever means are available to them. Mechanically this translates into a steady stream of radicalized slaves and the threat of turmoil and slave uprisings. This threat to a slave society can usually be averted with sufficiently repressive measures, but fear and violence is not a good foundation for a completely stable country.

Of course, resistance to slavery doesn’t just come from the slaves themselves, but also from Abolitionists, both internally in your country (in the form of characters and Interest Groups with the Abolitionist ideology) and externally in the form of Abolitionist-led countries that may hinder or put pressure on slave regimes that aren’t strong enough to resist them. The most notable historical example here being Britain and its naval efforts to stamp out the trans-atlantic slave trade in the 19th century.

With the explanation out of the way, let’s talk about slavery laws. These are what govern who (if anyone) is enslaved or emancipated and where (if anywhere) slavery can exist in your country. They are as follows:

Slavery Abolished: The law that most countries with advanced economies start with. Under this law, slavery is completely illegal and on its passage any slave pops in the country are immediately emancipated and converted into laborers. If a country with this law comes into possession of land where slaves are living, said slaves are also immediately emancipated as above.

Debt Slavery: This law is meant to represent traditional systems of generally debt-based slavery, present in a number of economically less advanced and/or decentralized countries. Under Debt Slavery, Pops of low Wealth levels will gradually create a trickle of new slaves (with poorer pops converting into slaves at a higher rate), as individuals sell themselves or others into slavery for economic reasons such as debt repayment. However, under this system, children born to slaves are born free, so slave populations will not grow by themselves.

Slave Trade: This law is meant to represent the kind of widespread chattel slavery practised in places such as Brazil and Cuba. Under Slave Trade, the children of slaves are born as slaves and new slaves can also be imported from abroad. We’ll not go over exactly how slave import works today, but the gist of it is that slaves can be imported from decentralized countries that practice slavery if the importer has an established Interest in the region (more on Interests at a later point).

Legacy Slavery: This law is meant to represent countries that have made slave trade illegal but not abolished it altogether, most notably the United States of America. Under Legacy Slavery, the country is divided into Free States and Slave States. In Free States, slavery is illegal and everything functions exactly as if the country had the Slavery Abolished law, while Slave States function as though they had the Slave Trade law with the notable exception that new slaves cannot be imported from abroad. Under this law, slaves also tend to have a slightly higher standard of living for the simple reason that a starving slave population isn’t demographically sustainable. This law also plays an important role in how the American Civil War functions in the game, but that’s a topic for a later dev diary.

The United States starts the game with the Legacy Slavery law. Surely, nothing will go wrong if they start trying to abolish it right away?
2021_09_14_3.png

Since slavery laws function just like any other laws, it is possible for them to change in different ways: a country with Slave Trade may follow the US example and change to Legacy Slavery as a compromise alternative to abolishing it altogether, and a country that has fully abolished slavery can even try to bring it back. Given that no country in history actually re-legalized chattel slavery after abolishing it, this is very difficult to do (once abolished there will generally be a strong anti-slavery bastion in a country that aren’t going to look kindly on such proposals). Of course, trying to abolish slavery isn’t likely to happen without resistance either - those wealthy aristocrats who benefit from it have a vested interest in defending it, after all.

Lyman Beecher, leader of the Devout Interest Group in the United States, is an ardent opponent of slavery

2021_09_14_5.png

On that note, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, though we’ll return a bit to this topic in the future when we talk about diplomacy (which isn’t that far away now!). Next week we’re going to go over the system of States and their related mechanics such as State Regions, Split States and Turmoil.
 
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View attachment 756676
It’s Thursday again, which means it’s time for another Victoria 3 development diary. Today’s subject of slavery is a rather heavy one, being both one of the most significant political issues of the Victorian era as well a story of untold suffering on a human level. For this reason, before I start getting into the mechanics of slavery I want to briefly explain our philosophy behind its representation in Victoria 3.

Slavery is, obviously, a horrific crime against humanity and precisely for this reason, many games that have a slavery-related setting or mechanics will either leave it out of the game or abstract it into something that’s less ‘on the nose’ (for example by simply applying some form of economic bonus at the expense of decreased stability). For Victoria 3, we don’t think these options work for us for two main reasons.

The first reason is that as I mentioned before, it was an important political issue of the day and was a major catalyst for several significant conflicts, most notably the American Civil War which would be bizarrely contextless if slavery did not play a significant role in the game. The other, and most important reason, is that through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836, so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?

Instead, our aim is to try and represent the institution, systems and causes of slavery, as well as the people who lived under and fought against it, as close to history as we can get it. We simply believe this to be the most respectful way for us to handle this topic, as well as the way that’s most true to the game Victoria 3 aspires to be. With that said, let’s get into the actual mechanics of how slavery and slave pops function in Victoria 3.

As was mentioned in the Employment and Qualifications dev diary, slaves are what Victoria 2 would have called a ‘Pop Type‘ and Victoria 3 calls a ‘Profession‘, but function in a significantly different way from other Pops. For one, slaves do not get hired with the enticement of a wage and do not have the freedom to choose the place they work. Slaves also aren’t just able to stop being slaves by switching their Profession to one that does offer a wage and freedom of movement.

These Slaves are given the bare minimum of goods not to starve, resulting in a very slight population increase over time but a generally miserable existence for the people that make up the Pop
View attachment 756677

Buildings that ‘employ’ slaves also do so in a way that differs from the way they employ other Professions. The gist of how this works is that in a state that has slaves, certain buildings (for example plantations) that employ laborers or peasants can fill each available position for those Professions with either a laborer/peasant or a slave. As an example, a Cotton Plantation in a slave state that has the capacity to employ 4000 laborers could fill that capacity with 2240 slaves and 1760 laborers, 4000 laborers and 0 slaves, or any other combination of the two less or equal to 4000. Generally buildings will prefer acquiring slaves over hiring free laborers whenever possible for the economic benefits it brings.

So what are those economic benefits? Well, first, it should be understood that said economic benefits are mostly for the owners of the building, meaning a bunch of wealthy aristocrats in the case of Cotton Plantations. Instead of paying wages, each building decides a standard of living based on factors such as laws and profitability and purchases the ‘necessary’ goods for that target standard of living. This target SoL may not always be at the level of outright starvation but is never going to be anything but a very basic existence.

The cost to purchase said goods is simply added as a building expense and is virtually always going to be cheaper than employing paid labor, which translates into lower costs, higher profits and increased dividends for the building owners. Slaves also do not pay taxes in any form, so if the government wants to convert those profits into revenue, they have to do so through the various forms of wealth-based taxes that are always going to be deeply unpopular with the powerful elite.

These Tobacco plantations on Cuba have fully replaced the usual Laborer workforce with Slaves instead, leading to greater wealth for the Aristocrats
View attachment 756678

However, there is one economic advantage to slavery that goes a little beyond just enriching aristocrats: Slave pops have a higher ratio of workforce to dependents than other pops, meaning that a population of 100k slaves can supply the labor needs of a greater number of buildings than a population of 100k laborers. The key thing here is of course that not all buildings can utilize slaves, so this isn’t going to be doing any good for an industrialized manufacturing economy, but a country that aims to keep its economy agriculture/plantation-focused and suffers from a labor shortage may find the brutal economics of slavery to work in its favor, if they’re willing to stomach the human cost and stamp down on any resistance.

So what of that resistance? Well, given that slavery is founded entirely on human misery, slaves are naturally not going to be content with their lot in life, and will attempt to resist by whatever means are available to them. Mechanically this translates into a steady stream of radicalized slaves and the threat of turmoil and slave uprisings. This threat to a slave society can usually be averted with sufficiently repressive measures, but fear and violence is not a good foundation for a completely stable country.

Of course, resistance to slavery doesn’t just come from the slaves themselves, but also from Abolitionists, both internally in your country (in the form of characters and Interest Groups with the Abolitionist ideology) and externally in the form of Abolitionist-led countries that may hinder or put pressure on slave regimes that aren’t strong enough to resist them. The most notable historical example here being Britain and its naval efforts to stamp out the trans-atlantic slave trade in the 19th century.

With the explanation out of the way, let’s talk about slavery laws. These are what govern who (if anyone) is enslaved or emancipated and where (if anywhere) slavery can exist in your country. They are as follows:

Slavery Abolished: The law that most countries with advanced economies start with. Under this law, slavery is completely illegal and on its passage any slave pops in the country are immediately emancipated and converted into laborers. If a country with this law comes into possession of land where slaves are living, said slaves are also immediately emancipated as above.

Debt Slavery: This law is meant to represent traditional systems of generally debt-based slavery, present in a number of economically less advanced and/or decentralized countries. Under Debt Slavery, Pops of low Wealth levels will gradually create a trickle of new slaves (with poorer pops converting into slaves at a higher rate), as individuals sell themselves or others into slavery for economic reasons such as debt repayment. However, under this system, children born to slaves are born free, so slave populations will not grow by themselves.

Slave Trade: This law is meant to represent the kind of widespread chattel slavery practised in places such as Brazil and Cuba. Under Slave Trade, the children of slaves are born as slaves and new slaves can also be imported from abroad. We’ll not go over exactly how slave import works today, but the gist of it is that slaves can be imported from decentralized countries that practice slavery if the importer has an established Interest in the region (more on Interests at a later point).

Legacy Slavery: This law is meant to represent countries that have made slave trade illegal but not abolished it altogether, most notably the United States of America. Under Legacy Slavery, the country is divided into Free States and Slave States. In Free States, slavery is illegal and everything functions exactly as if the country had the Slavery Abolished law, while Slave States function as though they had the Slave Trade law with the notable exception that new slaves cannot be imported from abroad. Under this law, slaves also tend to have a slightly higher standard of living for the simple reason that a starving slave population isn’t demographically sustainable. This law also plays an important role in how the American Civil War functions in the game, but that’s a topic for a later dev diary.

The United States starts the game with the Legacy Slavery law. Surely, nothing will go wrong if they start trying to abolish it right away?
View attachment 756679

Since slavery laws function just like any other laws, it is possible for them to change in different ways: a country with Slave Trade may follow the US example and change to Legacy Slavery as a compromise alternative to abolishing it altogether, and a country that has fully abolished slavery can even try to bring it back. Given that no country in history actually re-legalized chattel slavery after abolishing it, this is very difficult to do (once abolished there will generally be a strong anti-slavery bastion in a country that aren’t going to look kindly on such proposals). Of course, trying to abolish slavery isn’t likely to happen without resistance either - those wealthy aristocrats who benefit from it have a vested interest in defending it, after all.

Lyman Beecher, leader of the Devout Interest Group in the United States, is an ardent opponent of slavery

View attachment 756680
On that note, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, though we’ll return a bit to this topic in the future when we talk about diplomacy (which isn’t that far away now!). Next week we’re going to go over the system of States and their related mechanics such as State Regions, Split States and Turmoil.
I just wanted to inform everyone that I was listening to Miley Cyrus while reading the forums and at the exact moment I opened this dev diary "Midnight Sky" in the other tab played the lyric "I was born to run, I don't belong to anyone" :D
 
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It's possible to enslave some pops of the defeated enemy?

Slaves are only black people? Or can we have slaves of different colors? But I imagine that the second question is related to the first question.

If a slave rebellion succeed, will they have their own state or they will just get slavery banned?
 
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My question is, how will the slave trade be handled? I can't tell you how many times Romanians have become a huge minority in Brazil and the USA because of slave imports from the Ottoman Empire.
 
In brief - and to also answer all the questions about "who would be enslaved if I instituted Slavery in my nation that started without it" - this is exactly how Slaves enter your country under Slave Trade, yes. Slaves only come into existence through Debt Slavery and the natural Pop Growth of Slaves under Slave Trade. If a country has no Slaves, and pass Slave Trade, they will start importing Slaves from countries with Debt Slavery.
Is it possible to have debt slavery in your country but not participate in the international slave trade?
 
Do European colonies in Africa retain legacy slave systems of the precolonial empires they're constructed from? For example, Germany largely ignored the slave trade among its Arab population in Tanganyika, despite their lack of participation in historical slave trading. On another note, can you enforce a policy of emancipation in Africa as a coloniser? Italy prided itself on its abolitionist efforts in Eritrea and later Ethiopia, as another example.
 
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I am quite intrigued how serfdom will work in the game. I do not see representation of serfs as slaves as realistic, but serfdom should imply near-zero social mobility and make any significant industrialization impossible until resolved. Maybe even to the level of limiting labour options to subsistence farming. It should prevent Austria and Russia becoming industrial powerhouses in 1840-ies.
Most elegant way to do it using systems we know about is to slap a huge mallus on qualifications on subsistence peasants under serfdom.
 
what is the usual process of abolition like in Victoria 3? It sounds like slavery, with the possible exception of very limited Legacy Slavery (eg. like Spain's) is very beneficial for the landowners' clout which might make them a tough IG to knock down from politics. What methods are available to the player to subvert their evil aristocrats, or will it usually boil down to a civil war?
If you just try to get rid of it with no preplanning, it tends to result in civil war since the law has powerful supporters, yes. The subtle way of getting rid of it is to gradually erode slavery proponents' political strength (absolute and/or proportional) through other means, like reforming your Bureaucracy, expanding the voting franchise, and creating well-paying urban jobs to promote liberalism, until their influence has waned enough that you can push through legislation without a civil war. You can also gradually dismantle it by going through Legacy Slavery first, since several smaller political shifts over time are easier to control than one quick big shift. Finally, you can wait until the stars are aligned - for example, a powerful Abolitionist Political Movement that helps push the law through, and/or an Abolitionist Interest Group Leader that can draw on the political strength of a group typically neutral to the issue of Slavery to shift the balance of power.
 
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will different buildings result in different Slave pop growth rates? For example in the US South Cotton labouring had much higher mortality than tobacco and Slaves were regularly sold to the Deep South from tobacco growing areas. Sugar and Cotton at minimum should have lower, perhaps even negative growth rates I think, though if there's no system for internal slave movement I can understand why for balance reasons you might not.
Different buildings will have different Slave Pop growth yes, but not by us tying it to the building type directly. Rather, it's tied to the economy of the building - if the building is doing very well and its non-Slave workers are satisfied with their wages, the building will under certain circumstances increase the Standard of Living target for its Slaves, within a range from Starving to Impoverished. Similarly, if a building is failing economically its Slaves will be the first to suffer for it. Which means that for example, if a country relies on huge Slave-operated monoculture Sugar or Fabric production, and then a foreign country cuts an Import Trade Route for Sugar or Fabric making the prices of those goods drop, the plantations will make up for it by decreasing their Slaves' Standard of Living and thereby growth (and also increase their Radicalism to boot).
 
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How so? The Devout IG might, depending on its leader, be either pro-slavery or pro-abolition, which might persuade some pops towards those causes - or turn them towards another IG altogether, where they might pick up other ideologies, like secessionism. In that way, the concrete detail of who has the upper hand in one IG spills over into the rest of the game in a dynamic way - that's the opposite of abstraction.
This shows the limitations of having only a single “devout” Interest Group. Were “the Devout” in the United States in the 1850s for slavery or for abolition? Yes.
 
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If you just try to get rid of it with no preplanning, it tends to result in civil war since the law has powerful supporters, yes. The subtle way of getting rid of it is to gradually erode slavery proponents' political strength (absolute and/or proportional) through other means, like reforming your Bureaucracy, expanding the voting franchise, and creating well-paying urban jobs to promote liberalism, until their influence has waned enough that you can push through legislation without a civil war. You can also gradually dismantle it by going through Legacy Slavery first, since several smaller political shifts over time are easier to control than one quick big shift. Finally, you can wait until the stars are aligned - for example, a powerful Abolitionist Political Movement that helps push the law through, and/or an Abolitionist Interest Group Leader that can draw on the political strength of a group typically neutral to the issue of Slavery to shift the balance of power.

Thanks for your response. I can't wait to slowly pull the rug off from under the heels if those dirty slaver lords!
 
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Update! I have been corrected on this by the QA team, because it's changed in the current build: Cuba has Slave Trade, while Spain has Legacy Slavery. The only Slave State in Spain is Puerto Rico.
Why Cuba is a separate tag in 1836? And Puerto Rico isn't?

I don't understand. Just make Cuba a Slave State too.

Spain didn't give autonomy to Cuba or Puerto Rico until late 19th century.

Spanish rule in Cuba has nothing to do with the British East India Company or the Dutch Indies...
 
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Will you be able to send freed slaves back to their country of origin (or any country in general)? This is something even Abraham Lincoln spoke about doing, before he was assassinated.

Is this more a part of immigration (which has not been covered extensively yet)?
 
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A more accurate warfare experience. There's a big difference between a dead soldier and a soldier a nation now has to look after (in a prison camp) and that can go back to his home country after the war and be a soldier and fight in the next war.
If for example you lose 100K soldiers in a war, you need to raise another 100K to replace them. But if 50K are suddenly PoW's and you raise another 100K to replace them, at the end of the war those 50K come back home and you now have 150K soldiers who have to deal with instead of 100K.

Given that the game revolves around modeling every single individual in the world I think an accurate PoW system would benefit the gameplay compared to other Paradox titles.
What form would looking after a prison camp take? An extra expense? And having to demobilize excess soldiers after the war is over doesn’t sound like much of a gameplay challenge, especially because we’re probably talking about drafted soldiers who would be demobilized anyway (caveat: we have no idea how the military is going to work yet).

I’m not opposed to the feature per se, but on the list of things I’m dying to see at launch it’s pretty far down there. Especially because it sounds like it would need a fair bit of work to implement well.

I think Paradox will be especially skittish about including it because it raises the prospect of human rights abuses like Andersonville that they will probably not want to give the player the option of doing.
 
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Update! I have been corrected on this by the QA team, because it's changed in the current build: Cuba has Slave Trade, while Spain has Legacy Slavery. The only Slave State in Spain is Puerto Rico.
But wasn’t Puerto Rico still engaged in the Atlantic Slave Trade during the early part of the game’s time period?

Why Cuba is a separate tag in 1836? And Puerto Rico isn't?


I don't understand. Just make Cuba a Slave State too.

Spain didn't give autonomy to Cuba or Puerto Rico until late 19th century.

Spanish rule in Cuba has nothing to do with the British East India Company or the Dutch Indies...
I don’t think autonomy is the issue here. After all, a viceroy or military governor appointed directly by the monarch doesn’t allow for a lot of local autonomy, but does IMO justify a separate tag because you’re not really talking about a normal province anymore.

I do agree that it’s odd Puerto Rico gets singled out as not getting its own tag. I’m not really seeing the difference between it and Cuba.
 
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On the whole, looks like a solid approach to a difficult topic. Am glad that you're tackling it head-on. A few things:

1. It seems you're restricting slaves to agricultural work. This is ahistorical. Slaves absolutely were used as factory labor during the Vic3 time period. From what I recall, in the 1850 census the vast majority of factory workers in the US South were slaves, and in some states the largest geographic concentration of slaves was around industrial production centers. Factory slavery didn't expand in the antebellum southern states because using slaves on cotton plantations at that time was more profitable, but southern industry ran on slave labor, and expansion of southern industry would have been built on the backs of slaves. Please don't spread the nonsense that slavery "would have died out on its own" due to industrialization. It makes you sound like slavery apologists. Which doesn't seem to be your intent.

2. Will you model resistance to labor/antislavery laws? The Ottoman Empire was still trying to stamp out slavery on the eve of WW1, for example. Enforcement of labor laws likewise was spotty during the Vic3 time period.

3. Will you model state-level labor laws? In the US, a lot of early workplace health and safety regulations were enacted in one state, then spread to other states, then finally were enacted by the federal government.

4. Will you write more about discrimination laws?
 
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1. It seems you're restricting slaves to agricultural work.
The system determines which jobs can be worked by slaves on a building-by-building basis, so it definitely could support industry. (Aside from it not making a lick of sense, there's nothing in the engine that prevents you from having, say, slave Aristocrats or Capitalists as far as I'm aware...) And there are some indications that early industry can run on slaves:

View attachment 757261

Seems as if you are able to, at least somewhat.

Of course, to really ramp up to full industrialization, you'll need Engineers, who need an education, which means you'll probably need a supply of free Laborers and Machinists to pick up that education. So the long-term industrial prospects of slave states are perhaps a bit less rosy.
 
1. It seems you're restricting slaves to agricultural work. This is ahistorical. Slaves absolutely were used as factory labor during the Vic3 time period. From what I recall, in the 1850 census the vast majority of factory workers in the US South were slaves, and in some states the largest geographic concentration of slaves was around industrial production centers. Factory slavery didn't expand in the antebellum southern states because using slaves on cotton plantations at that time was more profitable, but southern industry ran on slave labor, and expansion of southern industry would have been built on the backs of slaves. Please don't spread the nonsense that slavery "would have died out on its own" due to industrialization. It makes you sound like slavery apologists. Which doesn't seem to be your intent.

They are limiting slaves to labourers (uneducated physical activity). So if your industry uses labourers then by all means use slaves.

But - the more advanced forms of industry usually swap out labourers for other professions and those the slavers can't do.

There was one screen shot of linking a steel mill to the railways - it cost train tickets but massive reduced the number of labourers required. If you're using slaves you will want to avoid that advancement (unemployed slaves will be a risk) which also means you're stopping your industry from efficiency improvements. Similarly producing luxury goods require more educated workers - slave states will find it hard to expand into those industries.

Seems to make a lot of sense and be historical.
 
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How will slavery intersect with warfare? In the War of 1812, the British freed and armed slaves after invading Washington D.C. and provided those freedman with new homes in Jamaica after the war. The South became paranoid about similar attempts by the British and European powers (especially after Britain abolished slavery in the Caribbean in 1833) and started to become in favor of a strong navy, which they had opposed before. This prediction would end up becoming true in the US Civil War after the Emancipation Proclamation.

Can you do this in Vicky 3? As Spain, could I protect Cuba from a land hungry US by landing troops on Southern shores and liberating slaves into soldiers, for instance?
Perhaps abolitionist invasions (a la the Union invading the Confederacy after the Emancipation Proclamation) could vastly increase the likelihood of slave revolts in the area, and these newly spawned armies would join the invaders as allies.
 
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I have to say that so far I am satisfied with most of the developers' decisions. I wouldn't have expected a few of them in this form.

As far as slavery and serfdom are concerned, I think it's very good how economic and thus social contexts are simulated here that will work apart from clichés.


In general one can say that any form of coercion is rather disadvantageous for the overall development. But you don't play the entire world market and not world society. This is where particular interests come into play. The north of the USA and Great Britain certainly benefited from slavery or serfdom in Russia, if we talk about the owners of the factories. The slaves / serfs "competed" with the free peasants. In the competition, the farmers could hardly win and had to flee to the cities. Which then again depressed the wages of the factory workers.


In theory, slavery could have adapted again and spread to factory work. But what did not happen because the skilled workers felt a natural hostility to it, if only out of self-interest. And they won the fights. It is a myth that the slave is not necessarily able to do more complex work. It was just much more profitable to expand into simple jobs during that period. But what gave the slave owners a massive disadvantage in fighting.
 
I’d just like to say that situations like Legacy Slavery really ask for later expansions that better model federal nations like the US.
 
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