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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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I would think it's unrealistic. A Nation doesn't marginally change its taxes based on the effects of day-to-day life. They don't go from a 12% tax to a 12.3% in order to balance the budget. Along with the fact that a slider is too immediate, and governments rarely ever work that quickly in reaction to an economic incident
How does having buttons instead of sliders prevent immediate changes in the tax rate?
 
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I would think it's unrealistic. A Nation doesn't marginally change its taxes based on the effects of day-to-day life. They don't go from a 12% tax to a 12.3% in order to balance the budget. Along with the fact that a slider is too immediate, and governments rarely ever work that quickly in reaction to an economic incident
You can add a cool down to a slider just like buttons.
 
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If I'm considering starting an expensive project and considering whether I have the money for it, how easy does the UI make it to tell which of my current expenditures are short-term (like being spend on buildings that will complete soon, freeing up budget space), and which are long-term? One of the nice things about lump-sum payments is that once I've clicked the button to build the factory, the UI immediately reflects that expenditure, and I can clearly tell how much money I have left for other things.
 
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!

I understand that you want to have the player be more hands on, even with laissez faire playstyles, with the industrailization of a country. I understand the rationalization of 'you're playing the spirit of the nation' etc. etc. But when all of your sources of income are taxes, and all but one of your sources of expenses are government expenses, doesn't that pretty much say that you're playing as the government? Which means why is the government always paying for building everything, if you're not playing a state-controlled economy?
 
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While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy.
Why did you choose the term Debt Ceiling? I have never seen it used outside of the context of a legislatively imposed limit on assuming debt, such as the infamous US debt ceiling. Which is not what this mechanic is representing, which is an economic limit on how much money there is that people are willing to lend your government.

I think this will lead to some confusion, and it's probably better to use a term that isn't loaded with a different meaning.
It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.
Went into this dev diary with the question of how government debts will interact with the economy, so I love to hear that. Sounds like a healthy domestic economy leads to a generous line of credit, which is a great abstraction in my opinion. And I guess a government may be forced into default even when it currently running a surplus, just because an economic crisis tanks the local economy and drains its cash reserves, lowering the Debt.. limit?

Sounds great!

Just one question, how does foreign debt fit into this? I very much hope it exists.

(Edit: looked at the screenshots in more detail after my first reading frenzy and noticed the "domestic loans" header, so I will assume that "foreign loans" are an option and we will learn more about them in context of a diplomacy orientied DD.)

Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
Are there downsides to excessive minting? I would think inflation is not a game mechanic in itself, but any negative consequences that model an oversupply of money?
 
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@Wizzington The US image shows the US using taxes except that during this era they largely didn't till they passed the Income tax and relied on tariffs. So I am curious why they are using poll and dividend taxes. I assume that Consumption taxes represents Tariffs but why do they have those taxes?

It seems they have not yet implemented tariffs in the game, hence Wiz saying they plan to have it in but can't talk about how it works because they haven't nailed it down yet. Probably why the US has the taxes it does, it needs some form of income in order to not go bankrupt. Once tariffs are implemented they will probably switch out one or more of the taxes the US has for it.
 
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How does having buttons instead of sliders prevent immediate changes in the tax rate?
It can take some time to be implemented, much like Laws appear to take some time before they are changed. I wouldn't mind having some more button options, but sliders are too exact for me.
 
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If I'm considering starting an expensive project and considering whether I have the money for it, how easy does the UI make it to tell which of my current expenditures are short-term (like being spend on buildings that will complete soon, freeing up budget space), and which are long-term? One of the nice things about lump-sum payments is that once I've clicked the button to build the factory, the UI immediately reflects that expenditure, and I can clearly tell how much money I have left for other things.
have you not seen that construction was under temporary expenses?
 
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I understand that you want to have the player be more hands on, even with laissez faire playstyles, with the industrailization of a country. I understand the rationalization of 'you're playing the spirit of the nation' etc. etc. But when all of your sources of income are taxes, and all but one of your sources of expenses are government expenses, doesn't that pretty much say that you're playing as the government? Which means why is the government always paying for building everything, if you're not playing a state-controlled economy?

I am going to assume you only pay construction costs with government money for government buildings. Investment pool money for building investment pool buildings.
 
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I am mostly concerned by your mention of tariffs. Tariffs were an extremely huge part of the United States's economic strategy at this time, and a key point of contention between the industrialist north (who wanted high tariffs), and the south (low tariffs).
So the question is: can tariffs be used to protect local industries in vic3 (and not just a way to earn money from exports)?
 
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You can add a cool down to a slider just like buttons.
Okay, but a slider is too exact. You could change the taxes by only a few decimals if you wanted. I don't think that's realistic
 
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I am quite disappointed to see how clunky and un-granular the tax rate settings are. Why did you get rid of sliders?
There's a few reasons:
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
 
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Okay, but a slider is too exact. You could change the taxes by only a few decimals if you wanted. I don't think that's realistic
And real world economies did not use tax rates that are "too exact"? That's the whole point of simulation. If I want to change my tax rate from 20% to 18%, I should be able to. Options should not be 5-10% apart.
 
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I hope some budget options will be replaced by sliders. Just 5 options to manage a complex economy doesn't sound viable.
There is 5 levels but that doesn't mean there is 5 options, there's a wide variety of different income streams that affect pops differently instead
 
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