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Leoreth

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Aug 14, 2013
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The issue, or rather non-issue of discrimination and the power of Multiculturalism is an issue of the game that people often bring up as a complaint. I have spent some time thinking about this aspect of the game and thought that with @lachek 's recent acknowledgement of it being a problem the dev team is looking into, I'd write a post outlining my ideas.

What are the problems with Multiculturalism? I see four that are all important:
  1. Multiculturalism is too powerful: Once Multiculturalism has passed, you do not have to worry about culture and discrimination ever again. You can get as much immigration as you can generate, and conquer as much as you can manage, and all the new pops will be just as fine as primary culture pops.
  2. Multiculturalism is too easy to pass: It's supported by the Intelligentsia, which is not too difficult to get to sufficient clout and maneuver into government. Moreover, it is only opposed by the Devout and by the Petite Bourgeoisie, which usually are not very powerful IGs at most stages of the game. Landowners, the usual powerful inhibitor of progressive change, are indifferent to this law. Other extremely progressive/leftist laws like Council Republic or Women's Suffrage by comparison are supported by no IG and require an event chain or lucky leader trait roll to even be an option.
  3. Strange relationship between Acceptance and Assimilation: Non-accepted pops will not assimilate into the primary culture. But with accepted pops, there is no difference to the primary culture, so you no longer care whether they assimilate or not.
  4. Multiculturalism is ahistorical: There has not been a single polity in the timeframe of the game that can be accurately described as multicultural. Even the United States, the archetypical immigrant nation, evidently still experienced pronounced discrimination of parts of its population. The idea of multiculturalism really only started being discussed in the second half of the 20th century. I don't think even today any society can be described as multicultural in the way that the game defines it - as there being no difference in treatment and discrimination across all population groups.
(Note that whenever I say "is accepted" because of culture I am ignoring that religion also plays a role - let's gloss past that for now for the sake of simplifying the examples and arguments. Unlike multiculturalism, separation of church and state was much more clearly actually practiced in the time period of the game.)

To resolve these conflicts, I think it makes sense to review what Discrimination actually does in the game:
Pops can be Discriminated Against if their Culture and/or Religion are not accepted in their Country. Discriminated Pops:
- get paid less than their peers
- have less Political Strength
- are less likely to develop Qualifications for certain Profession
- naturally become Radical over time
- and are more likely to Emigrate.
This is what Vickypedia says. One thing it does not mention explicitly is that discrimination is also taken into account by the Migration Controls law. (Also I am intrigued by the "get paid less than their peers" aspect - is that documented anywhere in greater detail?)

One important thing that I realised is that some of these effects are based on political/institutional discrimination while others are based on interpersonal/socio-economic discrimination. I think it's worthwhile to draw a distinction between these two forms of discrimination because the law that decides who is being discriminated is named "Citizenship". From that perspective it makes a lot of sense that the government can control who is politically/institutionally discriminated based on its recognition of citizenship status. But simply granting citizenship by itself does nothing to stop interpersonal/socio-economic discrimination. In fact, this is an aspect of life that governments have very little control over.

Instead of the current two-tier status of Accepted/Discriminated I therefore propose a three-tiered status of: Accepted > Recognised > Discriminated.

Accepted
pops for now are only pops of a primary culture. They have no penalties, as before. I think the game should offer ways for significant recognised cultures to become primary cultures, but I would like to leave that aspect out of the scope of this post.

Recognised pops are those that are not Accepted but covered by your current citizenship law (i.e. those that would have become Accepted under the current rules). They should get the following penalties:
  • Get paid less than their peers
  • Have less political strength, but more than Discriminated pops (the scaling could also depend on the specific Citizenship law)
  • Are less likely to develop Qualifications
Discriminated pops are those neither in primary cultures nor covered by the current citizenship law. They get all the penalties of Recognised pops, and in addition:
  • Even less political strength
  • Naturally become radical over time
  • More likely to emigrate
  • Will not assimilate
  • Do not receive access to benefits from Institutions, like pops in non-incorporated states*
* this is an additional penalty that I am surprised is not in the game but makes a lot of sense when thinking about the split discrimination model used here. It also makes you care a lot more about discrimination later in the game when you have well developed institutions whose education, health, etc. benefits get wasted on a large segment of your population. Conversely, if you don't care about the status and productivity of your conquered population but do want to tax them, there is now actually a benefit to going in the direction of restrictive citizenship laws.

In addition to this, it is a problem that the presence of discriminated pops only makes discriminated pops angry (i.e. radical). When in reality the presence of discriminated pops also leads to racism/chauvinism on the part of the accepted population. I think that needs to be reflected in the game for this mechanic to make sense. My proposal is:
  • Radicalism from losing your employment and/or ownership shares for accepted pops is increased based on the percentage of non-accepted pops in the state (e.g. if 20% of the population is non-accepted, employment loss produces +20% more radicalism). Job loss is only one angle of resentment but imo the best to use as a gameplay shorthand.
  • The most restrictive Citizenship laws get a reduction on this radicalism modifier. For example, Ethnostate could give no radicalism from losing jobs to discriminated pops.
  • Even better, these laws should guarantee that accepted pops are always hired first and fired last. I don't know if that is possible to implement and communicate though.
With these changes, it is still always the most preferable outcome to assimilate a non-primary-culture pop. I think that is accurate for the time period. The progressive/tolerant path of liberalising citizenship laws is now about reducing, instead of completely mitigating the penalties that come with discrimation. Doing so will also open the path for assimilation over the long term. However, this comes at the cost of granting them partial political participation.

The reactionary/restrictive path closes the door on eventually assimilating discriminated pops. Instead it reduces the negatives suffered by accepted pops (who are also having all the political power). It also keeps the option of using the cheaper labour of discriminated pops to cut down costs. This makes this path a bit more attractive than it is currently, even though ultimately still inferior to the inclusionary approach.

Finally, with this I think the following changes to laws should be made:
  • Ethnostate: accepted pops are always preferred for employment, no increased radicalism for accepted pops based on the presence of non-accepted pops
  • National Supremacy and Racial Segregation: -50% increased radicalism for accepted pops based on the presence of non-accepted pops
  • Cultural Exclusion renamed to National Identity: this is just a personal pet peeve but I find the name "Cultural Exclusion" not very evocative, and it's the only one that doesn't really describe an underlying principle. The idea of National Identity as something more constructed around cultural similarities rather than ancestry suits the effects of this law well, in my opinion.
  • Multiculturalism renamed to Civic Nationhood: this is the American idea that a country's identity should be based around its civic institutions and adherence to certain civil rights norms, rather than an individual's culture and ancestry (or religion). It works well with the Recognised status, but more importantly it is actually befitting the time period and does not carry all the anachronistic baggage that Multiculturalism does. Despite this I don't think any interest group should have this as a default ideologically supported civic and it should only be available through leader ideologies and event chains.
And finally finally, just for fun a bunch of extra law suggestions that might make sense with this system but aren't strictly necessary to resolve the current issue with discrimination:
  • Melting Pot (Citizenship): like Civic Nationhood, but with an additional +100% assimilation rate. Should also be leader/event gated.
  • Regional Autonomy (Citizenship): like National Identity/Cultural Exclusion but in addition all pops whose culture shares an ancestry trait with a primary culture are considered recognised if they reside in a cultural homeland state. This could be seen as a way to implement Austro-Hungarian pluralism, and what had been attempted for the Russian Empire. Should probably also be event gated.
  • Worker's Protections (Labor Rights): could additionally reduce the wage/qualification penalties for non-accepted pops
 
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While I like your ideas, I believe that the distinction between institutional and socioeconomic/interpersonal discrimination must become a thing.
Laws should only be able to change the former, while the latter should only be possible to be nudged with laws, literacy, and especially events.
 
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While I like your ideas, I believe that the distinction between institutional and socioeconomic/interpersonal discrimination must become a thing.
Laws should only be able to change the former, while the latter should only be possible to be nudged with laws, literacy, and especially events.
That IS my idea. Where is your disagreement?
 
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I think making cultural discrimination less binary is a very good idea. In principle something where the degree of hierarchical distance between the primary culture(s), the pop culture and the discrimination laws would provide a much more nuanced experience. Part of the rationale I have is that even in countries with historically very tolerant laws the primary culture(s) are still benefiting from social discrimination even if the legal status is indifferent. For example Britain's primary cultures are English / Scottish, so Welsh for example is much closer to these than say Punjabi or Han, so even under Ethnostate ought to have fewer penalties. So this is slightly extending your idea of Recognised / Discriminated to be a scale which considers the cultural laws and the ethnic distance.
 
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I think you are on the right tracks. My only criticism would be toward laws, just because I find it not really clear what would those do in practice (who is/isn't recognized and what would be the effects regarding the first part of your proposition). Maybe it needs a bit of clarification / detailing.

It is partially related, but I think migration would still need some changes, to make it a bit less crazy.
 
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I think you are on the right tracks. My only criticism would be toward laws, just because I find it not really clear what would those do in practice (who is/isn't recognized and what would be the effects regarding the first part of your proposition). Maybe it needs a bit of clarification / detailing.

It is partially related, but I think migration would still need some changes, to make it a bit less crazy.
I think hes saying the laws would be similar but instead of becoming accepted you would be recognized (a lower form). So if you had racial segregation and were russia, russian would be your nations culture and would be accepted, but say polish would be recognized becouse it had European heritage and so the law would recognize polish but it could never be truly accepted.
 
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I think it's a very good proposal. My main suggestion would be to make recognized pops have full political strength. They will still have de facto lower political strength due to lower wealth, and it reflects that under the law they're fully allowed to participate in politics.

I also think the existing modifiers to primary culture radicalism/loyalty from standards of living changes could use a variant of your suggestion for scaling by % of discriminated pops. So a state with 50% discriminated pops would get a lot of primary culture loyalty from oppressing them, but a state with only the primary culture wouldn't care. This is basically along the same lines as reducing loyalty for losing jobs to non-accepted pops.
 
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I think you are on the right tracks. My only criticism would be toward laws, just because I find it not really clear what would those do in practice (who is/isn't recognized and what would be the effects regarding the first part of your proposition). Maybe it needs a bit of clarification / detailing.

It is partially related, but I think migration would still need some changes, to make it a bit less crazy.
I think hes saying the laws would be similar but instead of becoming accepted you would be recognized (a lower form). So if you had racial segregation and were russia, russian would be your nations culture and would be accepted, but say polish would be recognized becouse it had European heritage and so the law would recognize polish but it could never be truly accepted.
Exactly. I know it's a long post, so my bad if it didn't come through.

Should a similar system also exist for religion?
I mean if you pass a law allowing all religion it wouldn't end discrimination.
Sure, I think it would make sense as well. I kind of bracketed religion in my suggestion because it would have been a lot of repeating analogous suggestions. It probably would even make it easier to understand if religion follows the same overall rules as culture.
 
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  1. Multiculturalism is too easy to pass: It's supported by the Intelligentsia, which is not too difficult to get to sufficient clout and maneuver into government. Moreover, it is only opposed by the Devout and by the Petite Bourgeoisie, which usually are not very powerful IGs at most stages of the game. Landowners, the usual powerful inhibitor of progressive change, are indifferent to this law. Other extremely progressive/leftist laws like Council Republic or Women's Suffrage by comparison are supported by no IG and require an event chain or lucky leader trait roll to even be an option.

Great post. But to my mind this is the key part of the problem. Making the Intelligentsia nationalist or at least segregationist is much more historical - something I've implemented in my mod. (And I agree the landowners should probably be against it - though late-game the Landowners tend to become irrelevant).
 
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What should the impact of this be on migration? For me migration is the big thing that makes multiculturalism too powerful (and removes the need to focus on mechanics like pop growth).

Do migrants prefer targets where they are Accepted > Recognised > Discriminated?
 
What should the impact of this be on migration? For me migration is the big thing that makes multiculturalism too powerful (and removes the need to focus on mechanics like pop growth).

Do migrants prefer targets where they are Accepted > Recognised > Discriminated?
It probably should be its own suggestion, but I agree that without a rework of migration, the very nice system in OP would have only a limited impact.
 
I really like this idea and I think it would be a great improvement over what's already in the game. I still believe that there should be some sort of 'melting pot' culture mechanic for assimilating pops with a different heritage than that of the primary culture, so for example pops with African heritage assimilating in the US would become Afro-American instead of Yankee/Dixie.
 
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That IS my idea. Where is your disagreement?
I mean, you recognize the problem, but don't really offer a solution to that problem. Everything you propose changing still revolves around laws. The law may now recognize three tiers of acceptability rather than two, but there's no relationship between pops entirely outside the power of the law to affect, which is what social discrimination actually is. Every single thing you propose can still ultimately be traced back to whether or not a pop is legally accepted. For example, you can say that recognized pops getting hired before discriminated ones and fired after them, but you haven't fixed the core fact that the state still decides who gets which treatment as opposed to the pops themselves.

I'm not sure that idea even can be captured without burning out everybody's CPUs, but as a sample idea of what would actually get at what you want is for each pop to have cultures it discriminates against and how much (since a pop isn't just one person, not everyone in it will be equally discriminatory). So maybe you have a German capitalist pop of 10k people and 70% of them discriminates against Poles, then the wage of Polish workers at that building would be decreased by 70% of the gap to the discriminated wage. But the key is that the government didn't decide that pop was discriminatory. You can have multiculturalism and those capitalists are discriminatory anyway because it's a fact about that pop, not a legal fact the government decided.
 
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I like the idea of a 3 tiered system, But I still think the main problem with multiculturalism is that the difference between Cultural Exclusion (National Identity would be a better name I agree) is huge. Depending on where you are, the eligible pool of accepted/recognized pops with multiculturalism is usually an order of magnitude larger, and especially with how easy it is to get migration, this is huge. I think there need to be more direct drawbacks to Multiculturalism, as it does create its own unique set of problems. I have posted a version of the idea below before, but I have modified it to fit with your recognized/accepted scheme.

I think accepting more and more cultures (or in your proposal's case, recognizing more) should come with a cost of increased SoL for all accepted/recognized cultures. In gameplay terms, this creates a soft cap to how accepting you can be, that will increase as you become more and more prosperous. In simulation terms, this represents the nativist elements even within multicultural societies that will oppose new groups when they are perceived to be taking away from their own established position/jobs/status. This is also taking inspiration from the culture system in Imperator, which I think worked quite well, where adding an accepted culture decreased the happiness of all other accepted cultures.

Mechanically.... this means you would need a more granular method to choose which cultures are accepted, beyond just primary cultures. I think your recognized system would still be the base of what you get from a law, while full acceptance comes from the sentiment within your nation, which will grow as the recognized population grows and establishes itself. I would have acceptance be based on a modifiable threshold percentage of total population.

Citizenship laws- Now do not directly accept cultures by trait, but rather, grant recognition and alter the thresholds required for acceptance, the cost of accepting in SoL and, unlocks a cultural affairs institution that can modify that further. Accepted cultures are picked automatically by population in incorporated states, however some citizenship laws and the Cultural Affairs Institution modify the population weight for acceptance status based on traits, making it possible to accept a similar, but smaller population culture before a larger but more foreign population.

Ethno-State
No Cultural Affairs Institution, No Recognition Only Primary Culture Accepted

National Supremacy
-Pops with two shared cultural traits are recognized
Cultural Affairs Institution +1 max level
+4 Minimum Expected SoL per accepted culture
30% population threshold for acceptance
-100% population weight for acceptance per different heritage trait
-100% population weight for acceptance per different cultural trait


Racial Segregation
-Pops with a shared heritage trait are recognized
Cultural Affairs Institution +2 max level
+3 Minimum Expected SoL per accepted culture
25% population threshold for acceptance
-100% population weight for acceptance per different heritage trait
-50% population weight for acceptance per different cultural trait


Cultural Exclusion
-Pops with any shared trait are recognized
Cultural Affairs Institution +3 max level
+2 Minimum Expected SoL per accepted culture
20% population threshold for acceptance
-50% population weight for acceptance per different cultural trait


Multiculturalism
-All pops are recognized
Cultural Affairs Institution +4 max level
+1 Minimum Expected SoL per accepted culture
15% population threshold for acceptance



Cultural Affairs Institution
+50% population weight for acceptance per level
-10% radicals from discrimination per level


Population weight for acceptance is simply a multiplier to the population that makes it easier or more difficult to reach the acceptance threshold. So, if a culture is 20% of your population but you have +50% weight for acceptance from cultural affairs, it counts as if it were 30% and would be accepted under national supremacy (assuming it matched your cultural traits). This is also how Racial Segregation would be able to maintain discrimination against even large populations, as the -100% modifier would make even a large population count as 0 for the acceptance threshold.

Increasing your citizenship laws now will naturally increase acceptance of cultures that already exist in your country. Full multiculturalism (and a maxed out cultural affairs institution) means that relatively small populations can become accepted if they grow enough (with 4 institution levels, +200% weight, a 3.75% population would be large enough to be accepted). However, the increased expected SoL per accepted culture may start kicking in and make more and more immigration eventually become a problem. The fact that you are not accepting of small populations despite being multicultural mostly represents the difficulty of new groups to establish themselves without support networks. It would also make migration targets more reasonable, as you are more likely to get migrations from cultures that already have enough of an established population to be accepted. The population thresholds would also mean it is possible for an accepted culture to decline relatively, due to demographic shifts and lose its accepted status, which could also create problems (good ones from a gameplay perspective). They would still be recognized however.

I think an important way this could play in with your recognition tier would be to have it so that accepted cultures do not assimilate. (If they do, then they would assimilate themselves below the acceptance threshold, and return to being only recognized). Thus, you would ideally want to strike a balance, recognizing cultures so that they can assimilate, but if the recognized culture grows large enough, it becomes accepted, which comes with the penalty to expected SoL for all accepted cultures, but then that group has grown large enough to generally maintain itself within your population. This could also tie well into events, to form Austria-Hungary for example, you would not only have to recognize Hungarian pops, but make sure the population is large enough to meet the percentage threshold for acceptance (or lower the threshold via the institution). There is a good chance you would need to give up some of your Italian possessions so that Hungarian is a larger relative portion of your population.
 
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The population thresholds would also mean it is possible for an accepted culture to decline relatively, due to demographic shifts and lose its accepted status, which could also create problems (good ones from a gameplay perspective). They would still be recognized however.
I would just let them stay accepted in that case, losing the acceptance doesn't feel immersive to me.
 
I would just let them stay accepted in that case, losing the acceptance doesn't feel immersive to me.
Maybe acceptance is permanent once you cross the threshold, unless you regress in citizenship laws. But it would recalculate if you reinstated racial segregation for example. Otherwise the meta would likely become to accept a few cultures, then regress into an ethnostate for the loyalty bonus and to prevent more cultures from gaining acceptance, and increasing the expected SoL
 
Maybe acceptance is permanent once you cross the threshold, unless you regress in citizenship laws. But it would recalculate if you reinstated racial segregation for example. Otherwise the meta would likely become to accept a few cultures, then regress into an ethnostate for the loyalty bonus and to prevent more cultures from gaining acceptance, and increasing the expected SoL
If the expected SoL would raise again with the step, that might be enough of a deterence.
 
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