More Twitter Teasers

[Hemothep]

So the interview I mentioned earlier where it's clearly suggested that pop type (as well as pop culture affects) levies is this one:

The relevant section is at 07:15.

Exactly how culture and pop type interact to determine levy composition remains unclear. For instance, if I want my heavy infantry to light infantry ratio in my levies to increase, can I do that by increasing the number of citizens of an appropriate integrated culture that has citizens linked to heavy infantry contribution (e.g. Macedonian or Roman)? Or are ratios fixed based on culture alone? I would ideally hope the former is true, as it offers another interesting and historically accurate level of complexity to shaping one's armies.

It's not unclear at all.
If you look at the code you'll see that some cultures (not all, mainly the civilized ones) have two levy templates: a base template for tribesmen and freemen and an advanced one for citizens and nobles.
The template you see in the culture tooltips is always the base one.

 

[Bovrick]

It's not unclear at all.
If you look at the code you'll see that some cultures (not all, mainly the civilized ones) have two levy templates: a base template for tribesmen and freemen and an advanced one for citizens and nobles.
The template you see in the culture tooltips is always the base one.

Can you name an example? I haven't seen this at all.

 

[Hemothep]

Can you name an example? I haven't seen this at all.

You can't see that ingame, but you see what they try to do if you go into the game files themselves. Here is common/levy_templates/00_default.txt:

# Scriptable Levy template, used to determine levy composition for different cultures.
# Each entry is either a levy tier "basic", "advanced", "special" which means that any subunit
# marked as such could be chose to fill that slot, or it can be specific subunit type such as "archers".
#
# NOTE: All numbers are relative percentages, ex. 0.2 means that 20% of this template should be a certain tier or unit
# 2nd NOTE: Support units will be added automatically in code when a certain size of Levy is raised, replacing another unit
# 3rd NOTE: If a specific subunit cannot be constructed for some reason another one that can from that tier will replace it ( if possible )
#
# TODO: Scriptable blocks ex. "if this cannot be constructed then use this instead" (?)

levy_default = {
default = yes

basic = 0.2
light_infantry = 0.2

advanced = 0.2
light_cavalry = 0.2
}

Or from common/levy_templates/01_hellenic.txt:

levy_cretan = {
default = no

#Basic:
archers = 0.75
#Advanced:
heavy_infantry = 0.25
}

Which pop type results in which levy tier is defined for each pop type. Here common/pop_types/citizen.txt:

citizen = {
output_modifier = {
local_manpower = 0.004
research_points = 0.2
}

count_modifier = {
pop_food_consumption = -0.3
local_base_trade_routes = 0.03
}
levy_tier = advanced

can_promote_to = nobles
demotes_to = freemen

conquest_demote_chance = 25

is_citizen = yes

base_happyness = -0.1
political_weight = 1.5

score = yes

# Activity Speeds
growing_pop = 0.0
convert = 0.6
assimilate = 0.6
promote = 3
demote = 2
migrant = 0.6
ui_tier = 2

color = hsv { 0.63 0.87 0.95 }

integrated_pop_type_right = yes

modification_display = {
0 = value_research
1 = value_income
}
}

Obviously it's not completely implemented, but you can clearly see what they are trying to do here.

 

[Bovrick]

You can't see that ingame, but you see what they try to do if you go into the game files themselves. Here is common/levy_templates/00_default.txt:



Or from common/levy_templates/01_hellenic.txt:



Which pop type results in which levy tier is defined for each pop type. Here common/pop_types/citizen.txt:



Obviously it's not completely implemented, but you can clearly see what they are trying to do here.

Ah sorry, I was thinking you'd seen it work in game, I was aware of the above. As far as I have seen, current implementation doesn't pay any attention to the Class composition of Pops, those templates are applied without regard to it, even if there's remnant code lying around that suggests it was supposed to work that way. Unless 2.0.1 fixed it, you can have a Region made entirely of Nobles, or entirely of Tribesmen, and the Cretan template will show you getting 75% Archers and 25% HI, no matter what that code implies.

For completeness in the above, the Advanced/Basic unit types are hardcoded in a way that is independent of Culture/Levy templates, defined in the unit pages.

 

[Bovrick]

Sorry, edited the above post too many times already - I also get the impression that there may be some direct Pop-Unit linkages that could use the above system when actually raised. IIRC trying to raise a Levy that was supposed to give the floor of 4 units in a Region with only 3 Integrated Pops used to give only 3 units. There may be a similar system in play that says to actually raise an Advanced Unit you need at least one Advanced Pop Class to raise it from - I haven't tested that since Arheo mentioned this link one time in answering a question about a Levy only giving 3 units when 4 was expected. I just wish that they'd be open with how it works, but I really get the feeling that it was implemented incorrectly and they won't tell us until it is settled in case their fixes contradict their vision.

 

[Maria Theresa]

Apparently the non-public patch from yesterday went live today as i assumed but it seems to be only some changes to the graphical model of dodona oracle building and some music file changes. So no 1.0.2 this week. #Sad
You can see it here: https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/6322984/

 

[ArchaeoFish18]

It's not unclear at all.

As far as I have seen, current implementation doesn't pay any attention to the Class composition of Pops, those templates are applied without regard to it, even if there's remnant code lying around that suggests it was supposed to work that way.

I don't know--if you have to dive into the code to work it out, and even then it's not entirely certain whether the code is implemented in-game, I would say it is hardly "not unclear at all."

But thank you for clarifying what's in the code.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

Apparently the non-public patch from yesterday went live today as i assumed but it seems to be only some changes to the graphical model of dodona oracle building and some music file changes. So no 1.0.2 this week. #Sad
You can see it here: https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/6322984/

I guess that was the changes to the Soundtrack DLC that have just been announced.
EDIT: Actually confirmed by Snow Crystal in another thread.

 

[Crosswire]

I'm a bit mixed about the mercenary changes - on one hand I can understand not wanting too much mercenary spam, but on the other, it seems to penalise smaller nations more than larger ones, and while the mega-stable megablobs are a thing, having access to mercenaries is kind of important to not get eaten. Not to mention that using mercenaries is about the only way the small nations have to actual expand

 

[goodcigar]

I find legions to be a mixed bag. Some countries like Rome, Egypt, Seleucids and Maurya are simply better suited for legions because they have regions with very high populations that can support big legions. Other countries will always struggle to have the numbers to have a big legion and are better suited to go with the levy/mercenary combo. So overall I'm happy that they're turning mercenaries into an alternative to legions.

The thing that I don't like about Legions is they are arbitrarily restricted to nations that have 25-99 territories. So I'm playing as Athens and I want to raise a small professional force. I have the money and manpower and researched the correct technology. But the game won't let me because of an arbitrary rule. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to raise a small professional force as a small country if I want.

So I'm stuck with Levies which can't be drilled at all. Which is another thing I don't like. Levies were drilled just like any other men in arms. You should be able to train them to a basic level. Another annoyance with Levies is not being able to combine Levy armies. This is another arbitrary rule that doesn't make real life sense and is pretty annoying at least for me.

 

[Manst]

So I'm stuck with Levies which can't be drilled at all. Which is another thing I don't like. Levies were drilled just like any other men in arms. You should be able to train them to a basic level.

This is what starting experience is for, especially the foundry that gives 50% exp, yeah it decays after a while at war, but that's fine.

 

[Basileus2]

I realize it'll be a while before we get new content but it'd be great to see a new roadmap at some point in the next month or so. Really want to see what comes next.

 

[goodcigar]

This is what starting experience is for, especially the foundry that gives 50% exp, yeah it decays after a while at war, but that's fine.

They're not mutually exclusive. And it doesn't make any sense that you can't drill your Levies.

 

[Limbojack]

They're not mutually exclusive. And it doesn't make any sense that you can't drill your Levies.

I agree. It should be possible for rulers to semi-professionalize their levies if they considered it worth the cost. I mean, just look at how Philip II of Macedon (Alexander's father) began to train/drill and equip his levies, turning them from useless farmers to a highly effective fighting force. Something similar should be possible in-game as well.

I would even go so far as to suggest that the nation could take it upon itself to arm/equip levies, upgrading them from light to heavy infantry. This process should of course cost a shit ton of money. Imagine how cool it would be if you could super-militarize your citizens like the Spartans did before I:R's time frame.

 

[cristofolmc]

I agree. It should be possible for rulers to semi-professionalize their levies if they considered it worth the cost. I mean, just look at how Philip II of Macedon (Alexander's father) began to train/drill and equip his levies, turning them from useless farmers to a highly effective fighting force. Something similar should be possible in-game as well.

I would even go so far as to suggest that the nation could take it upon itself to arm/equip levies, upgrading them from light to heavy infantry. This process should of course cost a shit ton of money. Imagine how cool it would be if you could super-militarize your citizens like the Spartans did before I:R's time frame.

Thata what the starting expirience represents

 

[Limbojack]

Thata what the starting expirience represents

On paper, perhaps. But how exactly does a foundry increase the professionalism of your levies? Do they become awesome spear-wielding supersoldiers by hammering away in the heat of the furnace? In practice, starting experience is a rather nonsensical shortcut when representing the quality of your levies (and it doesn't even touch the issue with equipping/upgrading the levies you've already got). Build one building and instantly see the quality of your levies skyrocket. IMHO, the current system works well enough in the current game while it still lacks every ounce of logic and immersion. Hopefully, it'll be improved upon at a later date.

 

[Rabid]

I would love to see a system which allows you to tweak the composition of your cultural levies even slightly. But it does run the risk of making legions obsolete so it's understandable why they're so inflexible.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I'm a bit mixed about the mercenary changes - on one hand I can understand not wanting too much mercenary spam, but on the other, it seems to penalise smaller nations more than larger ones, and while the mega-stable megablobs are a thing, having access to mercenaries is kind of important to not get eaten. Not to mention that using mercenaries is about the only way the small nations have to actual expand

Don't worry. Fucking small countries is a motto. I have heard so many countless times to say that small countries are not to be mentioned in any request for balances.

Specifically for Mercs, small countries are already punished even without the changes. It costs $100 to hire a $20 band (4 guys). It also costs $100 to hire a $200 band (40 guys).

 

[Manst]

Don't worry. Fucking small countries is a motto. I have heard so many countless times to say that small countries are not to be mentioned in any request for balances.

Specifically for Mercs, small countries are already punished even without the changes. It costs $100 to hire a $20 band (4 guys). It also costs $100 to hire a $200 band (40 guys).

Perhaps i'm not familiar enough with small nations, but at what point in the game would they need to have 3 merc stacks at the same time? To me, that seems unlikely as in the early game they wouldn't have the money to do it (for the reasons you pointed out and I agree with) and later on they just would have more pops like other nations, unless they plan on staying small, but that's when specialization with invention&co comes in.

 

[Iosue Yu]

Perhaps i'm not familiar enough with small nations, but at what point in the game would they need to have 3 merc stacks at the same time? To me, that seems unlikely as in the early game they wouldn't have the money to do it (for the reasons you pointed out and I agree with) and later on they just would have more pops like other nations, unless they plan on staying small, but that's when specialization with invention&co comes in.

As we speak now, smaller countries would still always have 1 single stack of mercs in their capital, and the merc stack is usually much larger than any regular levy.

For example, Caledonii have a merc stack of 5 Units. Massalia has one with 9. I think Athens has a merc stack with 13 Units.

While all of these countries could only muster up a levy of 4 Units.

So having 3 being the limit probably doesn't even change their situation at all. They'd still have too big a collection of mercs, while you'd generally prefer hiring some smaller stacks.

But seriously... you always pay $100 regardless of size. 4-Unit Merc, $100, $20 to disband. 40-Unit Merc, $100, $200 to disband.