Still trying to tie my head around the issue of organized religions. Does anyone agree with me that in CK2, there does not seem to be really much of an organization to all religions?
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Good to see you finally speak up. At least I have something to read and reply to now.Speaking personally, I'm disliking because the entire enterprise of this thread seems remarkably ill-considered. This is a game they've been working on for years. Game design isn't a fly-by-night thing, it's been planned and measured and scoped out already. People are asking for this or that addition in the dev diaries and the answer which nobody likes getting but is the only one available to give is "We have no plans for x y z", because of course they don't, the time for planning and writing up design documents was years ago, and they're probably mere months from launching.
And here you are, with your big laundry list of changes, compiling them and cataloging them as if they're worth a damn, as if the dev team is scouring the forums for undiscovered amateur game design content instead of finishing their work. It displays both a huge arrogance and a fundamental misunderstanding of how game development actually works. A true Dunning-Krugger.
So yeah, I'm disagreeing, and I'll continue to disagree. Take that as feedback rather than an attempt to wound your inflated ego ("how dare people disagree with me? I haven't even gotten to the meat of the issue!")
Good to see you finally speak up. At least I have something to read and reply to now.
Yes, you have a point. I am a complete amateur, and I am aware that the devs have a horrific timetable to work against, pandemic and all.
But the thing is, my friend, if CK3 does not flop and goes on for years like CK2, then it will have to go on somewhere, and then the devs will come looking for ideas - AFAIK, that was how Hellenic Revival got worked into Holy Fury. Someone decided their opinion was worth putting forth on this forum.
I give them the added benefit of a veneer of calm and patience, knowing that almost everything I put on this thread will NOT be in there on release, but once the devs start to plan the next step, they don't have to dig up all those ideas like I had to all over again.
I will call what I am doing community work, and the only point where my ego was wounded was that it took this long for you to do something else other than disagree. Seriously, I think I am a interesting person to talk to, why didn't you just say all this on the get go? It's not like I am blind to criticism or something. No, you decided I can decipher all this from 30+ disagrees.
To think I tried to be cordial with you ... fine, roll with your insinuation that Paradox ignores the voices that appears on its forum. I am not bothered if you think this way - I am only very recently convinced that was not the case.And you think the DLCs haven't been planned? You really think that after launch and a well deserved break, the top of the dev's to-do list is to scour the community forums for ideas on how to do their jobs??? The arrogance is bewildering.
You cherry pick the Hellenic revival events which made it into Holy Fury but ignore the legions of shitcan idea threads about playable theocracies or cadet branches or naval combat or whatever that never made it anywhere, thankfully. 99% of the time when I read a community suggestion thread, I give thanks that the people making them are nowhere near any position of decision-making for the game, and that goes triple for any suggestions which aim to increase historical accuracy while ignoring the fact that this is a game, and damning playability. I can't help but notice most of your suggestions fall in that category.
As for the cypher of 30 dislikes, I can only speak for myself and not anyone else who is disliking. But even a non-sentient animal would eventually stop touching a hot oven and burning it's hand, and disliking is the closest thing I have to burning your hand. You don't need to understand thermodynamics or the medical treatment of burns to get the point, and the point is "Stop doing what you are doing". To think you deserve more because you think you're an interesting person to talk to is more arrogance
But Vokasakshitcan idea threads about playable theocracies or cadet branches or naval combat or whatever that never made it anywhere
Greetings, and welcome to the first CK3 Feature Dev Diary!
As this is the first DD we want it to be extra juicy, and showcase something that we’re excited about - namely what we’re doing with Dynasties! Dynasties are immaterial yet fundamentally important things that make Crusader Kings what it is - your line must follow an unbroken line of members from your Dynasty; if your Dynasty ends, so does your game.
Now, the representation of Dynasties in CK2 was limited. A character belonged to a Dynasty, and that was that - you got a minor opinion boost with characters that were of the same one, and nothing more. In CK3, we really want to emphasize the power that Dynasties held, and their impact on the medieval world! We want you as the player to feel a bond with your Dynasty, and care for it. To achieve this, we’ve done a multitude of things!
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Firstly something that we know will especially please CK2 players, we’ve redefined what a Dynasty actually is - not a monolithic entity, but a collection of Houses. No longer will Dynasties have just one name, one Coat of Arms, and one identity - instead several Houses (aka Cadet Branches!) will be collected under the umbrella that is the Dynasty, working together (theoretically…) towards bringing renown upon the Dynasty!
To think I tried to be cordial with you ... fine, roll with your insinuation that Paradox ignores the voices that appears on its forum. I am not bothered if you think this way - I am only very recently convinced that was not the case.
Of course DLCs are planned. Outlines, projections, where nothing is already fixed in stone. That is the whole point of giving early suggestions - look at elvain who put forth a DLC idea for CK2, and some of it got implemented in the form of Clan government in CK3. That is not arrogance, that is being helpful.
I think I can give you a dose of wisdom here: every man has his own profession. Sure, I don't know a thing about coding, but I am much more immersed in the cultural context of Confucianism than most of the content designers ever will. Me pointing out some game designs inconsistent with said context is not being arrogant, I would be being helpful ... if they actually showcased anything about Confucianism, anyway. Not that they did.
If anything, your efforts have managed to convince me that the community work I do means something, and I am grateful for that. Your fire and brimstone, on the other hand, not so much, so if you want to keep talking, please be nice.
The Qabila government was already proposed to fit quite a number of governments for the sake of abstractions, like the Dailamites, which are similar to the Scots in that they are both highland tribes which highly value blood relationships. So yeah, what actually made it in is on a reasonable scale with what elvain originally proposed (but he probably didn't explicitly mention the Scots though).I see Elvain's threads, and by all accounts they seem like a well educated, intelligent person with a relevant knowledge and expertise. I still wouldn't want 90% of their ideas implemented because while being more historically accurate, they would probably be terrible for the game as a game, from a systems overhead perspective alone. For proof, look at the scope and grandure and specificity of Elvain's many suggestions, and what actually made it in is "Something called Clan Government is a thing for Islam, but also the system is being recycled and used for Scotland too". And Elvain is far on the reasonable end of the forum suggesters!
I understand the impulse. It's not like I've never made a suggestion in the CK2 forums, but I did so with an eye on actual feasibility to implement, because I want it to be any more than a fart in the wind, more than a self-important essay showing how smart I am while being a dislike magnet.
A grand strategy game that forsakes historical simulation is, shockingly, quite likely to earn Steam storefront criticism!No, it's not helpful, because this game being designed by game designers working at a game studio and released on gaming storefronts is, shockingly, a game! Not a historical simulator! If they don't implement Confucianism to a level that matches your expert sensibilities, then:
1) That's fine. It's not a historical simulator, it's a game.
2) it's probably more than fine, it's probably good, because it's a sign that their priorities were in the right place rather than trying in vain to please every "expert" on the forums in their obscure corner of "expertise".
Disabuse me of my mistaken notions? Well, we can see who is being arrogant now, can't we?No. I'm trying to disabuse you of your mistaken notions, not have pleasantries over tea. It's bitter medicine but you need to swallow it.
Now please, can you stop playing childish games and leave this thread be what it aims to be.... and let the developers decide if it's worth or not?
Since you both are mentioning me, probably because I attempted to bring more understanding in my previous post here, I feel like I should say something too (although I really don't want to).
I can't agree enough with Vokasak that we're here on a video game forum dedicated to a video game and its development and that the game (or all Paradox games in general) are primarily a game and not history simulations.
On the other hand, this forum also serves as very valuable platform for the devs themselves, offering them feedback to their work as well as inspiration, particulary about things their products/work are about. Although I can't and don't want to speak for the devs, while they obviously do have their own goals, technical and other limitations as well as concepts (which we don't know), posting ideas how it can be improved doesn't harm anyone. A bad case scenario is that the devs won't read them, the worst-case scenario is that there would be so many suggestions that the bad ones will cause the good ones to be ignored.
But those posting these ideas should ultimately respect the developers' decision not to take what is suggested (and in this case I am largely speaking to myself too). The developers have their concepts, design scope and goals which should be respected. If you don't like nor respect them and think you can do better, go and design your own game and see if it's as good as what Paradox is doing. And if you are posting a suggestion, keep this in mind.
As a former modder myself and a passionate "suggester" I can also say that I have read dozens of suggestion threads over the forums and made some conclusions from that reading. Few of those conclusions were (subjectively) that:
- majority of the suggestions are far from reality of a video game. Actually vast majority of them are just shouts "I want this, I want that" with no articulation whatsoever how it could be done, and many of those which try to suggest how it could work are far from how it really could work... and as correctly pointed out, many of the best articulated would still not fall into the game concept of the developers.
- those suggestions named after their poster usually tend not to be among the ones with high comprehension or ability to adjust personal preferences to other goals and as such are usually among the last to be noted. If you search something (either as a dev or a modder), you usually don't search a person, but some targeted information.
Quite honestly, putting all these into a list of suggestions is most probably a waste of time. If they include a good idea, the idea itself will reapear sooner or later, most probably even better packed. Not including all those, but naming the list of community ideas after yourself is either shooting into your own leg, or extremely selfish and egoistic. I'm not the one to judge, though.
With all this in mind I can't disagree more with the behaviour of people like Vokasak (I would even say it's one of the very things I can say that I hate), who think they can be judges of what is and what is not valuable. Hell, dude, leave it to the developers to decide. While you accuse FondMemberofSociety of arrogance his arrogance is unimaginably far behind the arrogance of self-proclaimed arbiters like you.
As you yourself said, the developers most probably have their concepts and ideas which we don't know and even an idea, which you Vokasak benevolently labeled as trash, can be exactly the thing, or spark of inspiration the devs might be looking for. Nothing is more arrogant and despicable than deliberate attemts to kill the inspirative and creative atmosphere in these forums... a sentiment which so often struggles hard and is dying under toxicity of limitless self-feeding criticism which deprives any creativity... and as witnessed quite recently on number of fellow forumites, posting suggestions is one of the most positive incarnations of criticism... and it is often the angry and well-informed forumites who first criticize and later transform their knowledge into suggestions. And the path from toxic paradox-hater critic to a constructive and inspirative suggester isn't long.
If I am to chose between a forum which is full of selfish arrogant people who shamelessly criticze anybody for their creativity (be it the devs or fellow forumites posting suggestions), or a forum of selfish arrogant people, who shamelessly spam the developers with their ideas and suggestions, I in an eye-blink chose the latter (no wonder, I'm one of them. I, however, doubt, whether Vokasak would like to frequent a fotum full of the former group). And although I can't speak for the developers, I believe they would chose the same like me, because the latter although it could be annoying, still is or can be creative and helpful, although it very often inherently includes criticism and lack of understanding of what a game or game-development is all about.
But please, let the proffessionals do their work and chose what's good for them. And let them do it in atmosphere where creativity isn't killed by self-proclaimed arrogant judges... and let the creative ones of the forum have their shot and chance to potentialy ignite a spark of inspiration, or even join the ranks. After all, even the developers themselves are only humans, they like to play and learn, and well written suggestion or idea can help them learn, can become the missing part of mosaic of their concept, or can inspire an improvement of their own concept... although... yes, we should all keep in mind that 99% of what we suggest here will probably never get to the game.
I guess I'll say this much.
I put my name in the thread name because there were quite a lot of idea and suggestion threads that were called "Ideas Thread" or "Suggestion Thread". That's all, really. That's the only reason.
Your dislikes account for something like 50-60% of all the dislikes I get. That first post was because I did not know where to check who clicked the Red Antony (yeah, I know, utterly stupid). Since everything you say seems pretty ad hominem with this fact in mind, how about you just wait a bit and let other people who disagree with me catch up with your clicking count?Sure, buddy. It's not ego AT ALL. You can tell how much not-ego it is from the passive aggressive whining about disagrees, and your bullheaded determination to continue doing exactly what you're doing in spite of all feedback and reception. Yeah, the only reason was for differentiating. Sure.
This post was sarcasm, just in case you couldn't tell.