Still trying to tie my head around the issue of organized religions. Does anyone agree with me that in CK2, there does not seem to be really much of an organization to all religions?
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the very generic ideas collection thread
- Thread starter FondMemberofSociety
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Stanza 2: National Churches
National Churches
National Churches - aka, how to create the church game and make culture a more powerful factor in CK3. Alright, so I guess everyone reading this thread has read the religion DDs, and are more or less dismayed at some features that show up. So I...
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Speaking personally, I'm disliking because the entire enterprise of this thread seems remarkably ill-considered. This is a game they've been working on for years. Game design isn't a fly-by-night thing, it's been planned and measured and scoped out already. People are asking for this or that addition in the dev diaries and the answer which nobody likes getting but is the only one available to give is "We have no plans for x y z", because of course they don't, the time for planning and writing up design documents was years ago, and they're probably mere months from launching.
And here you are, with your big laundry list of changes, compiling them and cataloging them as if they're worth a damn, as if the dev team is scouring the forums for undiscovered amateur game design content instead of finishing their work. It displays both a huge arrogance and a fundamental misunderstanding of how game development actually works. A true Dunning-Krugger.
So yeah, I'm disagreeing, and I'll continue to disagree. Take that as feedback rather than an attempt to wound your inflated ego ("how dare people disagree with me? I haven't even gotten to the meat of the issue!")
And here you are, with your big laundry list of changes, compiling them and cataloging them as if they're worth a damn, as if the dev team is scouring the forums for undiscovered amateur game design content instead of finishing their work. It displays both a huge arrogance and a fundamental misunderstanding of how game development actually works. A true Dunning-Krugger.
So yeah, I'm disagreeing, and I'll continue to disagree. Take that as feedback rather than an attempt to wound your inflated ego ("how dare people disagree with me? I haven't even gotten to the meat of the issue!")
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Good to see you finally speak up. At least I have something to read and reply to now.
Yes, you have a point. I am a complete amateur, and I am aware that the devs have a horrific timetable to work against, pandemic and all.
But the thing is, my friend, if CK3 does not flop and goes on for years like CK2, then it will have to go on somewhere, and then the devs will come looking for ideas - AFAIK, that was how Hellenic Revival got worked into Holy Fury. Someone decided their opinion was worth putting forth on this forum.
I give them the added benefit of a veneer of calm and patience, knowing that almost everything I put on this thread will NOT be in there on release, but once the devs start to plan the next step, they don't have to dig up all those ideas like I had to all over again.
I will call what I am doing community work, and the only point where my ego was wounded was that it took this long for you to do something else other than disagree. Seriously, I think I am a interesting person to talk to, why didn't you just say all this on the get go? It's not like I am blind to criticism or something. No, you decided I can decipher all this from 30+ disagrees.
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And you think the DLCs haven't been planned? You really think that after launch and a well deserved break, the top of the dev's to-do list is to scour the community forums for ideas on how to do their jobs??? The arrogance is bewildering.
You cherry pick the Hellenic revival events which made it into Holy Fury but ignore the legions of shitcan idea threads about playable theocracies or cadet branches or naval combat or whatever that never made it anywhere, thankfully. 99% of the time when I read a community suggestion thread, I give thanks that the people making them are nowhere near any position of decision-making for the game, and that goes triple for any suggestions which aim to increase historical accuracy while ignoring the fact that this is a game, and damning playability. I can't help but notice most of your suggestions fall in that category.
As for the cypher of 30 dislikes, I can only speak for myself and not anyone else who is disliking. But even a non-sentient animal would eventually stop touching a hot oven and burning it's hand, and disliking is the closest thing I have to burning your hand. You don't need to understand thermodynamics or the medical treatment of burns to get the point, and the point is "Stop doing what you are doing". To think you deserve more because you think you're an interesting person to talk to is more arrogance
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To think I tried to be cordial with you ... fine, roll with your insinuation that Paradox ignores the voices that appears on its forum. I am not bothered if you think this way - I am only very recently convinced that was not the case.
Of course DLCs are planned. Outlines, projections, where nothing is already fixed in stone. That is the whole point of giving early suggestions - look at elvain who put forth a DLC idea for CK2, and some of it got implemented in the form of Clan government in CK3. That is not arrogance, that is being helpful.
I think I can give you a dose of wisdom here: every man has his own profession. Sure, I don't know a thing about coding, but I am much more immersed in the cultural context of Confucianism than most of the content designers ever will. Me pointing out some game designs inconsistent with said context is not being arrogant, I would be being helpful ... if they actually showcased anything about Confucianism, anyway. Not that they did.
As for
But Vokasak
Seriously?
If anything, your efforts have managed to convince me that the community work I do means something, and I am grateful for that. Your fire and brimstone, on the other hand, not so much, so if you want to keep talking, please be nice.
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I see Elvain's threads, and by all accounts they seem like a well educated, intelligent person with a relevant knowledge and expertise. I still wouldn't want 90% of their ideas implemented because while being more historically accurate, they would probably be terrible for the game as a game, from a systems overhead perspective alone. For proof, look at the scope and grandure and specificity of Elvain's many suggestions, and what actually made it in is "Something called Clan Government is a thing for Islam, but also the system is being recycled and used for Scotland too". And Elvain is far on the reasonable end of the forum suggesters!
I understand the impulse. It's not like I've never made a suggestion in the CK2 forums, but I did so with an eye on actual feasibility to implement, because I want it to be any more than a fart in the wind, more than a self-important essay showing how smart I am while being a dislike magnet.
No, it's not helpful, because this game being designed by game designers working at a game studio and released on gaming storefronts is, shockingly, a game! Not a historical simulator! If they don't implement Confucianism to a level that matches your expert sensibilities, then:
1) That's fine. It's not a historical simulator, it's a game.
2) it's probably more than fine, it's probably good, because it's a sign that their priorities were in the right place rather than trying in vain to please every "expert" on the forums in their obscure corner of "expertise".
No. I'm trying to disabuse you of your mistaken notions, not have pleasantries over tea. It's bitter medicine but you need to swallow it.
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The Qabila government was already proposed to fit quite a number of governments for the sake of abstractions, like the Dailamites, which are similar to the Scots in that they are both highland tribes which highly value blood relationships. So yeah, what actually made it in is on a reasonable scale with what elvain originally proposed (but he probably didn't explicitly mention the Scots though).
On the other hand, what do you mean by "from a systems overhead perspective alone?".
……Well I can live with that, coming from you.
Yeah, you're far from the only one that clicks the Red Antony, but you're the only one that explicitly disagreed for the reason of "I should shut up". Hopefully not too many share your sentiment - because I won't.
A grand strategy game that forsakes historical simulation is, shockingly, quite likely to earn Steam storefront criticism!
I was just raising a topic that I felt confident in being helpful. Cf. the time that Jade Dragon showed up in CK2's lifespan, there probably won't be big reworks to Confucianism in the first three years of CK3's release. So what? Of course the priorities of the devs should be in polishing the feudal system first (just look at the reaction to the "feudal contract"). That doesn't mean when they get round to other things, they would suddenly be omniscient and be able to design and implement mechanics out of thin air. Posting relevant historical information and providing suggestions is of course being helpful.
Disabuse me of my mistaken notions? Well, we can see who is being arrogant now, can't we?
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Now please, can you stop playing childish games and leave this thread be what it aims to be.... and let the developers decide if it's worth or not?
Since you both are mentioning me, probably because I attempted to bring more understanding in my previous post here, I feel like I should say something too (although I really don't want to).
I don't know if I have ever seen a debate in which I would so strongly both agree and even more strongly disagree with both parties.
I can't agree enough with Vokasak that we're here on a video game forum dedicated to a video game and its development and that the game (or all Paradox games in general) are primarily a game and not history simulations.
On the other hand, this forum also serves as very valuable platform for the devs themselves, offering them feedback to their work as well as inspiration, particulary about things their products/work are about. Although I can't and don't want to speak for the devs, while they obviously do have their own goals, technical and other limitations as well as concepts (which we don't know), posting ideas how it can be improved doesn't harm anyone. A bad case scenario is that the devs won't read them, the worst-case scenario is that there would be so many suggestions that the bad ones will cause the good ones to be ignored.
But those posting these ideas should ultimately respect the developers' decision not to take what is suggested (and in this case I am largely speaking to myself too). The developers have their concepts, design scope and goals which should be respected. If you don't like nor respect them and think you can do better, go and design your own game and see if it's as good as what Paradox is doing. And if you are posting a suggestion, keep this in mind.
As a former modder myself and a passionate "suggester" I can also say that I have read dozens of suggestion threads over the forums and made some conclusions from that reading. Few of those conclusions were (subjectively) that:
- majority of the suggestions are far from reality of a video game. Actually vast majority of them are just shouts "I want this, I want that" with no articulation whatsoever how it could be done, and many of those which try to suggest how it could work are far from how it really could work... and as correctly pointed out, many of the best articulated would still not fall into the game concept of the developers.
- those suggestions named after their poster usually tend not to be among the ones with high comprehension or ability to adjust personal preferences to other goals and as such are usually among the last to be noted. If you search something (either as a dev or a modder), you usually don't search a person, but some targeted information.
Quite honestly, putting all these into a list of suggestions is most probably a waste of time. If they include a good idea, the idea itself will reapear sooner or later, most probably even better packed. Not including all those, but naming the list of community ideas after yourself is either shooting into your own leg, or extremely selfish and egoistic. I'm not the one to judge, though.
With all this in mind I can't disagree more with the behaviour of people like Vokasak (I would even say it's one of the very things I can say that I hate), who think they can be judges of what is and what is not valuable. Hell, dude, leave it to the developers to decide. While you accuse FondMemberofSociety of arrogance his arrogance is unimaginably far behind the arrogance of self-proclaimed arbiters like you.
As you yourself said, the developers most probably have their concepts and ideas which we don't know and even an idea, which you Vokasak benevolently labeled as trash, can be exactly the thing, or spark of inspiration the devs might be looking for. Nothing is more arrogant and despicable than deliberate attemts to kill the inspirative and creative atmosphere in these forums... a sentiment which so often struggles hard and is dying under toxicity of limitless self-feeding criticism which deprives any creativity... and as witnessed quite recently on number of fellow forumites, posting suggestions is one of the most positive incarnations of criticism... and it is often the angry and well-informed forumites who first criticize and later transform their knowledge into suggestions. And the path from toxic paradox-hater critic to a constructive and inspirative suggester isn't long.
If I am to chose between a forum which is full of selfish arrogant people who shamelessly criticze anybody for their creativity (be it the devs or fellow forumites posting suggestions), or a forum of selfish arrogant people, who shamelessly spam the developers with their ideas and suggestions, I in an eye-blink chose the latter (no wonder, I'm one of them. I, however, doubt, whether Vokasak would like to frequent a fotum full of the former group). And although I can't speak for the developers, I believe they would chose the same like me, because the latter although it could be annoying, still is or can be creative and helpful, although it very often inherently includes criticism and lack of understanding of what a game or game-development is all about.
But please, let the proffessionals do their work and chose what's good for them. And let them do it in atmosphere where creativity isn't killed by self-proclaimed arrogant judges... and let the creative ones of the forum have their shot and chance to potentialy ignite a spark of inspiration, or even join the ranks. After all, even the developers themselves are only humans, they like to play and learn, and well written suggestion or idea can help them learn, can become the missing part of mosaic of their concept, or can inspire an improvement of their own concept... although... yes, we should all keep in mind that 99% of what we suggest here will probably never get to the game.
On the other hand, if somebody's motivation is primarily to be helpful and they are able to be helpful, they usually name the thread after their primary goal or idea. If the thread is named after its poster, it indicates that the poster either may not be primarily interested or capable to be helpful, because his effort is centered around himself, not the idea.
Hence I as a reader would tend to ignore such effort, although in some exceptional cases they might be inspirative. But whatever, if they contain a valuable idea, it will re-appear sooner or later anyway.
At my first and very broad glance I found the effort of this thread valuable, despite the name, which utterly demotivated me to actually read anything inside. That's why I entered the thread with personal attempt of advice. It later became obvious that having the thread named after himself is probably sort of important for the OP, which even more demotivates me to read the content. Sorry for that.
But please, guys, if you don't like something and it doesn't negatively affect you, ignore it. Live and let live.
tl;dr
I'm in no way qualified to comment or judge, but after I entered this discussion and later became its subject, I feel I should.
Although I strongly agree or have deep understanding of why you do what you do, I can't disagree more with both of you Vokasak and FondMemberofSociety, and especially the way how you do what you do.
Both of you clearly try to be helpful and hence your effort deserves appreciation, but let asside ammateur psychologization, the way you do it defies your efforts. Please, if you can, be both more respectfull not only to each other, but also to others.
Since you both are mentioning me, probably because I attempted to bring more understanding in my previous post here, I feel like I should say something too (although I really don't want to).
I don't know if I have ever seen a debate in which I would so strongly both agree and even more strongly disagree with both parties.
I can't agree enough with Vokasak that we're here on a video game forum dedicated to a video game and its development and that the game (or all Paradox games in general) are primarily a game and not history simulations.
On the other hand, this forum also serves as very valuable platform for the devs themselves, offering them feedback to their work as well as inspiration, particulary about things their products/work are about. Although I can't and don't want to speak for the devs, while they obviously do have their own goals, technical and other limitations as well as concepts (which we don't know), posting ideas how it can be improved doesn't harm anyone. A bad case scenario is that the devs won't read them, the worst-case scenario is that there would be so many suggestions that the bad ones will cause the good ones to be ignored.
But those posting these ideas should ultimately respect the developers' decision not to take what is suggested (and in this case I am largely speaking to myself too). The developers have their concepts, design scope and goals which should be respected. If you don't like nor respect them and think you can do better, go and design your own game and see if it's as good as what Paradox is doing. And if you are posting a suggestion, keep this in mind.
As a former modder myself and a passionate "suggester" I can also say that I have read dozens of suggestion threads over the forums and made some conclusions from that reading. Few of those conclusions were (subjectively) that:
- majority of the suggestions are far from reality of a video game. Actually vast majority of them are just shouts "I want this, I want that" with no articulation whatsoever how it could be done, and many of those which try to suggest how it could work are far from how it really could work... and as correctly pointed out, many of the best articulated would still not fall into the game concept of the developers.
- those suggestions named after their poster usually tend not to be among the ones with high comprehension or ability to adjust personal preferences to other goals and as such are usually among the last to be noted. If you search something (either as a dev or a modder), you usually don't search a person, but some targeted information.
Quite honestly, putting all these into a list of suggestions is most probably a waste of time. If they include a good idea, the idea itself will reapear sooner or later, most probably even better packed. Not including all those, but naming the list of community ideas after yourself is either shooting into your own leg, or extremely selfish and egoistic. I'm not the one to judge, though.
With all this in mind I can't disagree more with the behaviour of people like Vokasak (I would even say it's one of the very things I can say that I hate), who think they can be judges of what is and what is not valuable. Hell, dude, leave it to the developers to decide. While you accuse FondMemberofSociety of arrogance his arrogance is unimaginably far behind the arrogance of self-proclaimed arbiters like you.
As you yourself said, the developers most probably have their concepts and ideas which we don't know and even an idea, which you Vokasak benevolently labeled as trash, can be exactly the thing, or spark of inspiration the devs might be looking for. Nothing is more arrogant and despicable than deliberate attemts to kill the inspirative and creative atmosphere in these forums... a sentiment which so often struggles hard and is dying under toxicity of limitless self-feeding criticism which deprives any creativity... and as witnessed quite recently on number of fellow forumites, posting suggestions is one of the most positive incarnations of criticism... and it is often the angry and well-informed forumites who first criticize and later transform their knowledge into suggestions. And the path from toxic paradox-hater critic to a constructive and inspirative suggester isn't long.
If I am to chose between a forum which is full of selfish arrogant people who shamelessly criticze anybody for their creativity (be it the devs or fellow forumites posting suggestions), or a forum of selfish arrogant people, who shamelessly spam the developers with their ideas and suggestions, I in an eye-blink chose the latter (no wonder, I'm one of them. I, however, doubt, whether Vokasak would like to frequent a fotum full of the former group). And although I can't speak for the developers, I believe they would chose the same like me, because the latter although it could be annoying, still is or can be creative and helpful, although it very often inherently includes criticism and lack of understanding of what a game or game-development is all about.
But please, let the proffessionals do their work and chose what's good for them. And let them do it in atmosphere where creativity isn't killed by self-proclaimed arrogant judges... and let the creative ones of the forum have their shot and chance to potentialy ignite a spark of inspiration, or even join the ranks. After all, even the developers themselves are only humans, they like to play and learn, and well written suggestion or idea can help them learn, can become the missing part of mosaic of their concept, or can inspire an improvement of their own concept... although... yes, we should all keep in mind that 99% of what we suggest here will probably never get to the game.
On the other hand, if somebody's motivation is primarily to be helpful and they are able to be helpful, they usually name the thread after their primary goal or idea. If the thread is named after its poster, it indicates that the poster either may not be primarily interested or capable to be helpful, because his effort is centered around himself, not the idea.
Hence I as a reader would tend to ignore such effort, although in some exceptional cases they might be inspirative. But whatever, if they contain a valuable idea, it will re-appear sooner or later anyway.
At my first and very broad glance I found the effort of this thread valuable, despite the name, which utterly demotivated me to actually read anything inside. That's why I entered the thread with personal attempt of advice. It later became obvious that having the thread named after himself is probably sort of important for the OP, which even more demotivates me to read the content. Sorry for that.
But please, guys, if you don't like something and it doesn't negatively affect you, ignore it. Live and let live.
Even I as veteran suggester don't expect anyone to remember that I posted this or that suggestion, or that (more often) I compiled ideas of others into a more comprehensive suggestion. It doesn't matter whether I am credited, it doesn't even matter if that partucular idea gets there as I articulated it. The only thing that matters is whether the thing - the game - will get improved. If your work is good, it will find its way. They don't know "The elvain's suggestion", but some of them know "The Qabila suggestion" as potential source of inspiration, although not a miraculously genial concept as I myself have seen it And trust me, if they know Elvain as a forum name, they know it's the annoying smart-ass arrogant ashole who behaves as if he knew everything about Africa and Middle East better.
And trust me, if they know Elvain as a forum name, they know it's the annoying smart-ass arrogant ashole who behaves as if he knew everything about Africa and Middle East better.tl;dr
I'm in no way qualified to comment or judge, but after I entered this discussion and later became its subject, I feel I should.
Although I strongly agree or have deep understanding of why you do what you do, I can't disagree more with both of you Vokasak and FondMemberofSociety, and especially the way how you do what you do.
Both of you clearly try to be helpful and hence your effort deserves appreciation, but let asside ammateur psychologization, the way you do it defies your efforts. Please, if you can, be both more respectfull not only to each other, but also to others.
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I'd like to point out that I was perfectly happy disagreeing with the nonsense and moving on, and only actually posted when FondMember made his surprised pikachu face and asked how anyone could possibly disagree with his amazing ideas. Of course I never sought out to make you the subject of this clown fiesta of a "discussion", and only did so in response to FondMemeber's "but what about"ism bring you up in the first place. I earnestly regret that you've been dragged into the mud bath.
I broadly agree with everything here and have very little to say or add.
I think you've misunderstood my position, which is understandable and probably my fault. This thread has prompted more bile than anything constructive, but I like to think that it's for reasons specific to this thread, ie it being a dumpster fire. "y u disagree plz respond" is never going to go in a positive direction, "I think I'm an interesting person to talk to" is only pointing the nose of the plane downward.
I think there's a way to submit ideas and feedback that's helpful, if it comes from a place of understanding (Not just of the historical context or whatever, but of the software development process). None of that is present here. Again I was content to just ignore this thread like all the other bad suggestions that wash through these parts, but FondMember kept bumping this stupid thread over and over with more asinine additions, bemoaning out loud to nobody in particular that it wasn't getting the respect it deserved, and for a second I foolishly believed that actually telling them what their problem is would do anything. Obviously I should've known better.
I also broadly agree with this, especially letting the professionals do their work.
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I guess I'll say this much.
I put my name in the thread name because there were quite a lot of idea and suggestion threads that were called "Ideas Thread" or "Suggestion Thread". That's all, really. That's the only reason.
I put my name in the thread name because there were quite a lot of idea and suggestion threads that were called "Ideas Thread" or "Suggestion Thread". That's all, really. That's the only reason.
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Sure, buddy. It's not ego AT ALL. You can tell how much not-ego it is from the passive aggressive whining about disagrees, and your bullheaded determination to continue doing exactly what you're doing in spite of all feedback and reception. Yeah, the only reason was for differentiating. Sure.
This post was sarcasm, just in case you couldn't tell.
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Your dislikes account for something like 50-60% of all the dislikes I get. That first post was because I did not know where to check who clicked the Red Antony (yeah, I know, utterly stupid). Since everything you say seems pretty ad hominem with this fact in mind, how about you just wait a bit and let other people who disagree with me catch up with your clicking count?
And now you gave me a haha. Wow, a refreshing change.
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