EU4 Dev Clash #10 - Rule Britannia - Tuesdays 15:00 CET

[KaiserJohan]

Apologies for asking a rather old question, but having just gotten into watching the series, can somebody explain (perhaps @KaiserJohan himself, if he has the chance?) the steps the Ottomans took to forming Byzantium? The part that confuses me the most is how they managed to bypass the requirement to have Georgian as primary culture for the formation of Georgia.

1. Conquer Georgian lands asap before other neighbours do
2. Unlock first NI for RCC
3. State Georgian lands but dont core it, unstate the minimum necessary Turkish lands to reach 50% Georgian and flip culture
4. Flip to Orthodox by assigning Dhimmi next to Constantinople, mothball it, piss of Dhimmi and revoke. They will prioritize mothballed forts i.e your capital. As someone pointed out, you should Sortie to speed the sieging up... accept rebel demands.
5. Form Georgia
6. Unstate Georgian lands. State Greek lands untill 50% Greek then culture flip.
7. Form Byzantium
8. State back Anatolia and flip back to Turkish because if not for RP reasons Turkish is a godlike culture group unlike greek

Pretty sure this was hotfixed immediately though, same with the mana-events they no longer spawn for Otto-Byz...

 

[dynalon]

Huh.

Victory card. Realistically, Byz is more than 500 points ahead and will be gaining even faster as soon as his VC has ticked up completely.

France and me have the same income/army with unlocked french NIs - mark my words there is not gonna be any victorious repeats of the first coalition war.

France is was (slightly) over force limit by the end of the session, while I'm pretty sure that you still got some room. Interesting that you didn't mention max manpower in your comparison - I wonder why.

Anyway, the Wikipedia entry for "Prisoner's Dilemma" should get a link to the YT playlist of this clash. I've rarely seen a better example of it in a game.

 

[KaiserJohan]

Getting a new nation will get your score cut in half, so I just lost any chance of a trophy. I wouldn't call that 'not losing anything'.

As for other criticism; people call me salty. I am not upset I lost today (I was fully expecting to die). I am, however, upset that here is a player (who I will be the first to admit is far better than I am at min-maxing his nation), who got the most powerful nation in the world, surrounded by weak and new players, and nobody is willing to even try to slow him down. And this is the second campaign in a row that people are content to sit idly by and let him dismantle other players to his heart's content. It annoys me to see people repeatedly make such short-sighted, stupid decisions, basically amounting to committing long-term suicide. THAT is what I am salty about.

I just got a full coalition against me last session; how is that not trying to stop me? Besides if not me, then you. I'm pretty sure you would've gobbled up everyone last campaign if I hadn't.

 

[CassCD]

1. Conquer Georgian lands asap before other neighbours do
2. Unlock first NI for RCC
3. State Georgian lands but dont core it, unstate the minimum necessary Turkish lands to reach 50% Georgian and flip culture
4. Flip to Orthodox by assigning Dhimmi next to Constantinople, mothball it, piss of Dhimmi and revoke. They will prioritize mothballed forts i.e your capital. As someone pointed out, you should Sortie to speed the sieging up... accept rebel demands.
5. Form Georgia
6. Unstate Georgian lands. State Greek lands untill 50% Greek then culture flip.
7. Form Byzantium
8. State back Anatolia and flip back to Turkish because if not for RP reasons Turkish is a godlike culture group unlike greek

Pretty sure this was hotfixed immediately though, same with the mana-events they no longer spawn for Otto-Byz...

Awwwww, damn, I really wanted to replicate your strat and have fun with it myself. . Why you gotta hotfix away all the fun stuff? . Nevertheless, thanks a bunch for sharing!

 

[Inquisitor Silenus]

Getting a new nation will get your score cut in half, so I just lost any chance of a trophy. I wouldn't call that 'not losing anything'.

As for other criticism; people call me salty. I am not upset I lost today (I was fully expecting to die). I am, however, upset that here is a player (who I will be the first to admit is far better than I am at min-maxing his nation), who got the most powerful nation in the world, surrounded by weak and new players, and nobody is willing to even try to slow him down. And this is the second campaign in a row that people are content to sit idly by and let him dismantle other players to his heart's content. It annoys me to see people repeatedly make such short-sighted, stupid decisions, basically amounting to committing long-term suicide. THAT is what I am salty about.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude... but so what? They're committing suicide; that's quite definitely their problem now, not yours. Why rescue the ungrateful players of Western and Central Europe? If anything, you should be upset at them, not Byzantium... I mean according to you, they are the one under threat now. If they don't deal with it, it's their funeral? Save it for a glorious "I told you so" at the end. Don't get mad, get even.

 

[Bratyn]

Again, I'm not trying to be rude... but so what? They're committing suicide; that's quite definitely their problem now, not yours. Why rescue the ungrateful players of Western and Central Europe? If anything, you should be upset at them, not Byzantium... I mean according to you, they are the one under threat now. If they don't deal with it, it's their funeral? Save it for a glorious "I told you so" at the end. Don't get mad, get even.

Because I find it more distasteful to join the strongest player when the going gets rough. It is the same reason I refused to join the Asian hugbox when I played Inca; Ihki offered me alliances on multiple occasions, but I rather lost my first place than join them. It would make for a boring stream to have people ditch their comrades every time they're faced with a loss, join the strongest alliance, and then stomp the rest of the world.

 

[Viperswhip]

Bratyn is straight up fear mongering Kaiser, don't respond and feed the troll.

 

[StarNaN]

Because I find it more distasteful to join the strongest player when the going gets rough. It is the same reason I refused to join the Asian hugbox when I played Inca; Ihki offered me alliances on multiple occasion, but I rather lost my first place while fighting against them. It would make for a boring stream to have people ditch their comrades every time you're faced with a loss, join the strongest alliance, and then stomp the rest of the world.

I recall you having the choice of joining me in the Custom Nation campaign to make the coalition war even, but you chose the other side.

 

[Bratyn]

I recall you having the choice of joining me in the Custom Nation campaign to make the coalition war even, but you chose the other side.

There I -was- the strongest player/alliance at the time, and I was playing to keep everyone else (especially my #1 long-term threat; you) down. Surely you can see the difference

The difference being one of them is switching sides, abandoning allies, and latching on to someone else's success like a lapdog, while the other is carving out your own success.

 

[Horn and Ivory]

However, I am currently between 2 huge alliances, not an easy position. If I help you guys take down Byzantium, I am the next target. Everyone knows this.

Kaiser Johan distracts everyone for another hundred, hundred and fifty years, and then StarNaN revokes the privilegia.

We can but dream.

 

[dynalon]

Kaiser Johan distracts everyone for another hundred, hundred and fifty years, and then StarNaN revokes the privilegia.

We can but dream.

I would wonder what the pope man had to say about that. Wasn't he a prince as well?

 

[Meneth]

Bratyn is straight up fear mongering Kaiser, don't respond and feed the troll.

Johan 2.0 is the biggest player nation around nearly by a factor of three.

It isn't fear mongering if it is true.

 

[Dnote]

Bratyn may be a little salty, but it is still a valid point.

Everyone knew the nation picks before the first session, the only surprise so far is the complete lack of a response from StarNan.

Kaiser Johan was a threat from the beginning but no one reacted until it was too late, and when people did they lacked the necessary coordination.

 

[Meneth]

High numbers mostly high autonomy and capped by states already. The income/army size tells the full story.

Rather a soft cap, that.

Next time State tech, you'll be stating 142 dev.
Your second biggest competitor, Great Britain, can state 39 at that point.
Austria gets to state 72.
Spain gets to state 12 (though they're only very slightly over state cap).
France gets to state 32 (again only a bit over state cap).

The 25% from each territory adds up quickly as well.
The state cap doesn't hurt you nearly as much as you'd like for it to look

 

[Viperswhip]

Starnan seems to reply if you mention his disappeared hairline...

 

[jfoytek]

Jfoytek's Weekly Power Rankings Week 3

This Week we saw the K.Johan choke on his meal, Bratyn successfully slowed the Byzantine Horde.

10) Last Week: Trin Tragula

This Week: Bratyn (Previously 4rth) Fell 6 Places

How can a country who is no longer left on the map place 10th this week? Because this is not a top 10 country ranking its a ranking of the top 10 players in the game. Bratyn's choices this week were a bit UN Orthodox, were they honorable? Maybe? Were they done for game balance? Or were they done for a Saltier reason? I think the intentions are grey and its easy to spin a tale of either an evil Bratyn who acted with great dishonor or a heroic Bratyn that sacrificed himself for the world?!? Whatever it was, it did act as a speed bump at the cost of his exit stage right.

9) Last Week: Sidestep

This Week: Nutsoman (Previously Unranked) Moved up 2 Places

The heavy and fast expansion has not gone without notice in Mali, but the main question is can the savages import the tech needed to relavent when the time comes to fight vrs there Northern European neighbors?!?

8) Last Week: Katz

This Week: Sidestep (Previously 9th) Moved up 1 Place

Sidestep received the fruits of his loyalty to K.Johan last week, with a bunch of new territory compliments of his generous ally, this week. At this point I feel like Sidestep is Robin too Batman or Tonto to the Lone Ranger. He is very much in the shadow of his ally and very much seems to be happy too simply be the side kick. Will this continue? Or will we see a very strong Hungry start to act on his own and for his own good in up coming sessions? He could have eaten into Lithuania on his own he didn't need to wait for for help, but he choose to wait!

7) Last Week: Rageair

This Week: Trin Tragula (Previously 10th) Moved up 3 Places

France still hasn't cleaned up burgundy but he did take a nice bite out of savoy. There wasn't anything in particularly stand out-ish this session other then that though.
But France didn't seem to make any mistakes either it was a relatively quiet session, and even with that said we did see France projecting its power whenever it could.
Trin certainly is not out of this thing and to be honest, this is where we are use to seeing Trin. Strong but flying under the radar, a few more solid sessions like this one and
Fake Byzantines eastern unit advantage will slowly drift away.

6) Last Week: Guiseppe Garibaldi

This Week: Duplo (Previously Unranked) Moved up 5 Places

Duplo's alliance with StarNan seems to be going well for him, while he is in a similiar relationship with Austria as Hungry is with the Byzantines there is one glaring difference. It seem like Duplo is very much able to make his own decisions and press the fight for his own interests without the approval or need to wait on his larger ally to act or approve it. He has a very strong March that he has fed almost to dangerous levels. And likely deserved to make the list last week. However he graces this fine list this week thanks to his steady and solid play.

5)Last Week: Johan

This Week: Katz (Previously 8th) Moved up 3 Places

Katz sells the Canary's? And makes it easier for England to Colonize? Allowing for growing friction between England and Portugal? It seems that Katz version of "Spain" Now officially Spain as of this session, seems to be focusing on Europe his expansion into Morocco done via vassals because of the increased coring cost was smart, but his vassal border gore was atrocious!!! Although he has expanded his power base and his focus on Europe and not dabbling with colonialism could actually make him a much stronger Spain! One thing is for sure Spain is relevant and will play a major role in things to come.

4) Last Week: ForzaA

This Week: Johan (Previously 5th) Moved up 1 Place

Johan, has invested heavily in his Navy not really a surprise there! But how will he do on land? And is his major push for colonialism which will obviously bring him wealth also translate into military power? And why did he rock the boat bye creating new world conflict with Portugal? Where will Spain fall on this issue? There is no doubt England is in an envious position but when isn't it?!? Any player can turtle it up in England!!! Any player can be a colonial power house in England!!! But can you win a dev clash from England?

3) Last Week: Bratyn

This Week: ForzaA (Previously 4rth) Moved up 1 Place

Carsten has just had things fall his way this dev clash. He keeps climbing the rankings and it seems like he doesn't really do anything. Today he lost a few battles against Lithuania on the battlefield but yet Sweden is Huge and its still has plenty of room to grow with more land in muscovy and lithuania, aswell as, all of Norway ripe for the picking. While people are pointing there fingers at K.Johan and its obvious that the Byzantines are the center of the spot light, Sweden is poised to become equally as scary and no one is saying a word about it.

2)Last Week: StarNan

This Week: StarNan (Previously 2nd) No Change

StarNan commited many crimes to border gore this week. Wish I could lower his rank in the list over it but I can't as he is still playing a masterful game in the HRE. But is he really in a better position then Carsten? Is he really the guy who deserves to be in the second spot of this list. I have a feeling these top 3 positions may start shifting position come next week. But which way will people go on this list??? Are the Byzantines really as scary as the world thinks they are?

1)Last Week: K Johan

This Week: K Johan (Previously 1rst) No Change

K Johan had an off week, thanks in no small way to Bratyn, using himself as poison to slow down the growth of the Fake Byzantines! While we definitely saw some interesting province selling, I can't help but wonder if K.Johan didn't end this session felling a little bit less dominate then he thought he was! I sensed weakness in the interview almost like his confidence has slipped a little bit and he is unsure, with talks of peace, and not quite the normal aura of superiority he typically has.


***With talks about a Player in Ming and strong growth on the outskirts bye players who fell early this dev clash is far from a foregone conclusion, infact I still see the Unholy Alliance as being the major threat in the world as it just feels like the Byzantines are losing a little momentum!***

 

[Monphat]

Have to say that I agree with Bratyn, Daniel, Groogy, Meneth and a lot of dissatisfied viewers if the Twitch chat is of any indication. This campaign, more than previous ones, clearly demonstrates the disparity in ambition between players and it sucks the fun out of the process.

I don't want to be harsh because players owe nothing to me and I have no right to demand anything but the situation when 3-4 players out of about 15 go for the top spot and everyone else is content with a participation trophy, is really not ok. Imagine if 7 out of 10 athletes at a competition went "Nah, these other 3 guys are too good, I guess I'll just stroll around". That's just not comfortable to watch.

What are you going to lose for being more aggressive? Facing wrath of a superior opponent, like, say, StarNaN? Believe it or not, you are only going to benefit from that:

1) Best way to improve your skills is to face a stronger opponent and learn from him heads on;
2) You are going to prove that you are not a pushover that can be bossed around;
3) In the worst case scenario you are going to be eliminated and placed elsewhere where you can begin again and maybe contend for the trophy once more.

There is no reason to play a campaign-long servant to a stronger party.

Existing system when 3-4 ambitious players commit ritual murders at the beginning of a campaign, terrify others into joining their gangs, form hugboxes and sort it out between themselves later is not entertaining because in the end it always goes the same way. Current campaign where everyone basically thrown a white towel already after merely three sessions is so self-evidently disgusting that we are now seriously discussing putting a player in Ming to spice up the game at least a bit.

Finally, I want to commend Bratyn. He may not be the best player as far as skill goes, but at least he treats this whole thing as a proper competition. He goes against stronger opponents knowing that he may not survive, but still does it because he has enough ambition to go for the top. That's respectable.

 

[jfoytek]

Have to say that I agree with Bratyn, Daniel, Groogy, Meneth and a lot of dissatisfied viewers if the Twitch chat is of any indication. This campaign, more than previous ones, clearly demonstrates the disparity in ambition between players and it sucks the fun out of the process.

I don't want to be harsh because players owe nothing to me and I have no right to demand anything but the situation when 3-4 players out of about 15 go for the top spot and everyone else is content with a participation trophy, is really not ok. Imagine if 7 out of 10 athletes at a competition went "Nah, these other 3 guys are too good, I guess I'll just stroll around". That's just not comfortable to watch.

What are you going to lose for being more aggressive? Facing wrath of a superior opponent, like, say, StarNaN? Believe it or not, you are only going to benefit from that:

1) Best way to improve your skills is to face a stronger opponent and learn from him heads on;
2) You are going to prove that you are not a pushover that can be bossed around;
3) In the worst case scenario you are going to be eliminated and placed elsewhere where you can begin again and maybe contend for the trophy once more.

There is no reason to play a campaign-long servant to a stronger party.

Existing system when 3-4 ambitious players commit ritual murders at the beginning of a campaign, terrify others into joining their gangs, form hugboxes and sort it out between themselves later is not entertaining because in the end it always goes the same way. Current campaign where everyone basically thrown a white towel already after merely three sessions is so self-evidently disgusting that we are now seriously discussing putting a player in Ming to spice up the game at least a bit.

Finally, I want to commend Bratyn. He may not be the best player as far as skill goes, but at least he treats this whole thing as a proper competition. He goes against stronger opponents knowing that he may not survive, but still does it because he has enough ambition to go for the top. That's respectable.

Man I can't help but disagree with most of this....

Nobody should be throwing in the towel at this point...
Have you looked at Carsten in Sweden??? Give it another session to develop and thats going to be scary!
StarNan has even finished swallowing the HRE yet... He is far from out of this thing....
And the Unholy alliance is still stronger then everyone if they coordinate!!!

No I don't see this game as already won in any way shape or form...

But I do agree with one point and that is their is a large group of players who play single player. But the wolves do need sheep to eat!!!

 

[jfoytek]

Honestly in my opinion the problem is not with the mixture of skilled players the problem is the policy of giving the best players first pick of the best nations!!!

There is Zero reason that
Bratyn
Trin
K Johan
Johan
StarNan

should start as nations like:
Ottomans
England
Austria
France
Spain

If they put these top tier lvl players in appropriately weaker country's then you might see more balance in the world....

 

[BjornB]

Who knows what I could do with a mighty nation? Lithuania is not that bad though. I got intimidated at the start however, surrounded by StarNan's pack (I was convinced Hungary was basically Austria before the game started), Carsten, Bratyn and Kaiser. Players I knew all go all in for #1.