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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #34 - Canals & Monuments

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Good evening and welcome to this week’s Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s topic is Canals & Monuments, unique buildings with special inputs, outputs, and effects.

The Vatican City is the seat of the Catholic Church and a great asset to the Papal States in Victoria 3. As Europe developed and industrialized, the power of religious authority in national politics declined steeply but never lost its relevance. Can you change the course of history and renew the temporal power of the Pope?
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Monuments are unique buildings only available in specific states, each with its own 3D model on the map. They make use of some of the more interesting aspects of the production methods system; just as buildings can output Goods, they can also output both national and local modifiers, Capacities, and effects on the pops working there. The Vatican City for instance outputs the Influence capacity as well as greatly increasing the political strength of the Devout Interest Group. Meanwhile the White House adds a multiplier to your national Bureaucracy output as well as increasing the amount of political strength Pops gain from votes. Not all Monuments are present at the start date. Some, like the Eiffel Tower, must be constructed, and Monuments are significantly more costly and time-consuming to construct than standard buildings. Monuments are subsidized by government funding, so if you decide that a Monument is unaffordable or that you aren’t interested in its effects (for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them. On release we intend to have eleven different Monuments in total.

The Panama Canal links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Finally completed in 1914 after decades of planning and construction, ships no longer had to take the long and treacherous route around South America to travel between the East and West. Yes, we can see the trees and houses in the Canal - we’ll fix it!
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Like Monuments, Canals are unique buildings with a special set of inputs and outputs. But the true allure of constructing a Canal is that it allows you to create new connections between sea nodes, allowing ships to travel through the isthmuses of Panama and Suez. This significantly reduces the Convoy costs for trading and supplying armies across vast ocean distances, as well as your vulnerability to unscrupulous rivals trying to disrupt your supply lines.

We use the Journal Entry system to track the progress of your canal survey. Behind the scenes a variable is increased every month until the goal is reached, which triggers the completion event. The Journal Entry also acts as a reminder that you are spending a lot of Bureaucracy on this project, and that it will eventually be made available again once the survey is complete.
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Constructing a Canal is far from trivial. Before any work can begin, an extensive survey of the region needs to be conducted, costing a hefty chunk of Bureaucracy for the surveyor for around 3 years. Either the owner of the state or a Great Power with an Interest in the region can conduct a survey. Any number of countries can potentially conduct their own surveys and compete to build the Canal themselves.

We’ve made the conscious decision to avoid starting wars or Diplomatic Plays through scripted content wherever possible, instead offering incentives for the player to start their own Plays and encouraging the AI to pursue Journal Entry goals. In this case, the player has the option to either gain a Claim on Sinai or to improve relations with the owner country, helping you along your chosen path but not locking you into a particular course of action.
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Once you’ve completed your survey, the path diverges depending on whether you own the appropriate land. If you already own either a Treaty Port or the whole state region you can simply begin constructing the canal, but if not you’ll need to find a way to acquire it, either through monetary or coercive means. A Decision becomes available allowing you to purchase a Treaty Port in the appropriate State Region in exchange for a series of very large weekly payments, assuming you can convince the local rulers to part with the port. You might however decide that you’d rather keep your money and start a Diplomatic Play for a Treaty Port or the entire State Region (the former will cost you a lot less Infamy), which might lead either to a peaceful concession to your demands or to war.

And that’s all for today! Next week I’ll be handing you over to one of our Content Designers to talk about Expeditions and Decisions.
 
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Monuments are great, for a variety of reasons! But "the White House adds a multiplier to your national Bureaucracy output" really puts me off. The idea that bureaucracy is not simply more efficiently generated at the white house than other options, which is already questionable, but rather that the sheer existence of this house somehow makes ALL bureaucracy generated in the entirety of USA more efficient, is (in my opinion) entirely illogical and goes against the core idea of specific nations not having bonuses just for being a specific nation, seeing as the white house is so purely part of the USA.

When these effects make sense, like the Vatican City genuinely having a reason to boost influence and the devout IG, monuments effects work great. I'd say there's still a debate to be had over whether the effect should be in the monument iteself instead of e.g. an institution, however this is a tiny issue. But when they are EU4-style "this a significant governmnet building, so the government works significantly better now" effects, I don't think they fit inside a such a realistic "society simulator". In my opinion, most monuments, e.g. the Eiffel Tower and the White house, should not provide more than a bit of prestige and worker productivity that is on par with other options, unless there is a very strong reason behind it.

I know it can be modded out, but I just don't see why such a system be kept in the game.


With that said, I would also like to ask a question about canals:
What are the mechanics behind non-owners using the canals? Is access a given unless stated otherwise, or is it a form of diplomatic agreement? are there any tolls you can set up for foreign nations using the canal when you are its owner? Also, can a canal ever be destroyed, one way or another?
 
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Also, can we get confirmation if owners of canals can restrict access to other nations?
It's functionality we do want to add, but haven't yet, so it's not something I can promise at release. There's a small bundle of potential mechanics oriented around control of narrow naval passages I'd like to explore, so I don't want to prioritize shoehorning in special mechanics only for canals that will rarely have an impact if we can create something more coherent and universally applicable instead.
 
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For monuments constructed during the time period, can an allowance be made for building them outside their historical states under certain conditions?

For example, maybe Gustave Eiffel emigrates to Quebec and builds his tower there instead?
 
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While completely understandable, it feels it goes against all the other stuff that the game pillars embrace.
While I get it that Eiffel Tower can only be built in Paris because of that, I think not having them in the game and only doing canals as these are pretty much fixed where they can be built would be the better option.

This is exactly my view.

I get that some monuments are historical, some generate conflicts etc. But the most unsurpassable obstacle only seems to be the aestetic map issue. Because all others are kinda easy to circumvent.

All it takes is to make a few generic monuments for the main game capacities or areas. A culture one, a bureaucratic one, a military one etc. I can live without them having a map model, but give then a discrete one if they absolutelly need one. Then to prevent conflicts, put up some caps. You cant build one if you already have one of the same type; there cant be more than one per state; generic ones can be a bit lamer than the unique ones, viz, the eiffel tower yields a lot of prestige and the generic prestige monument only some; and then of course the unique ones keep being unique, as the historical script. No two white houses. Edit: another limit could be rank. Great Powers can have 3 monuments at the most, minor powers 2, others 1 etc.

But I get it. A lot of work. Maybe in a future DLC. Maybe. Took CK2 some 10 dlcs to get there. But I cant shake the feeling of a missed opportunity, as I felt in EU4's monuments, where you have what feels like a dreadfully small amount of things to build/have in that department (edit: and most pretty underwhelming). You can be the world's first superpower, the most enlightened nation on earth, having the funds to build say a "generic exchange" that gives 5% more tariffs but no, you are stuck with "stonehenge" being your monument. Ugh.
 
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The main thing I don't like is that future "monuments" are predetermined. It's okay that there are old Vatican and the like. But in 1836 it was not predetermined that the very Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower would be built. The whole world history in the game can go a different way, and the monuments will remain the same. And the Statue of Liberty, then, will even be built by a totalitarian or monarchical America? It breaks the whole immersion in the game.
(Written with the help of an online translator, there may be errors)

About canals - are there only historical canals? Is a canal in Nicaragua impossible instead of the Panama Canal? Although it was not built in reality, but it is quite possible. Historical determinism again.
 
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How can we be sure there arent pointy-hatted wizards in the Whitehouse ensuring the strength of my vote?

No, wait. Now that I've said it out loud I'm fairly certain it's the opposite.
 
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Regarding Vatican City and how it grants additional power to the clergy regardless of state religion, it's mainly a result of the fact that we can't trigger a Production Method on religion - it's not a Law, or a Tech, or another Production Method. If time permits we might add that functionality, which would then easily let us change the behavior of Vatican City depending on the state religion of the controlling country.
What if the influence of the Vatican was gated behind being Catholic state religion?

For non Catholic countries holding it, instead it could cause increased radicalism/consciousness for Catholic pops.
 
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Maybe for monuments, you could use a form of the discoverable resources mechanic? E.g., maybe Machu Picchu is revisited in 1910, or 1900, or the 1880s. Or it never is, but another ruin in the area becomes prominent enough to be a monument, etc. The specifics of what, where, and when can change from game to game without necessarily being a complete anarchy.
 
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  • Monuments are positioned manually on the map to ensure they fit into the landscape and city hubs. It would be virtually impossible to ensure the Statue of Liberty seamlessly meshes with every coastline unless we painstakingly went through every single coastal state and experimented with its placement there. This means doing this for all states (currently over 700) for all monuments in the game (currently 11) to ensure we place every single monument in the game in a unique position.
I don't understand what Paradox's cult-like fascination with its 3D modelling crews is, but it has to stop, dude. They're not good enough to base gameplay mechanics around them, the models are of a quality I'd expect from an xbox exclusive from a decade ago, and the company already stubbed its toe with the overly-long-delays for Royal Court which was extremely underwhelming (and not only not a graphical improvement, but a significant graphical downgrade going by the Shadow Over Innsmouth character portraits.)

You seem really impressed with their work--for some reason--but I urge you to consider that these textureless monopoly buildings sprinkled about in a repeating pattern and overlapping each other are probably not a good reason to consider literally any gameplay changes, especially not regarding magical buildings that represent institutions instead of, oh I dunno, the actual institution systems, and especially not when that gameplay decision goes against the core pillars of the game.

If you want to represent big fancy buildings, you can do that by just having them be on the map, or maybe give a small prestige boost. But monuments do not make societies powerful, societies build monuments because they are displaying their power. It's ridiculous to put it the other way around, especially when this game is making every effort to be a society simulator. I don't know how you guys keep messing this up from game to game to game. I'm not trashing it just because it's bad, I'm trashing it because you never seem to learn.
 
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why would you add monuments to a game "without magic numbers" after they were already terrible in a game like eu4

hate it 10/10
Maybe the 'magic numbers' were already there, but you refused to see them?

The main reason however is most likely the large amount of people basically saying 'shut up and take my money' every time Paradox releases content for these kind of features (such as mission trees). This is basically what a large amount of Paradox 'fans' have been encouraging Paradox to do over the past few years.
 
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There are a many reasons for this:
  • Monuments are positioned manually on the map to ensure they fit into the landscape and city hubs. It would be virtually impossible to ensure the Statue of Liberty seamlessly meshes with every coastline unless we painstakingly went through every single coastal state and experimented with its placement there. This means doing this for all states (currently over 700) for all monuments in the game (currently 11) to ensure we place every single monument in the game in a unique position.
  • Many of these monuments are already in place at the start of the game. Nevertheless, if we did have a system where you could build the Eiffel Tower anywhere, then we ought to also have a system where you could build Vatican City somewhere else if you razed it. This means that for consistency we ought to be manually positioning the Vatican City in every single state even though it's unlikely to ever be built elsewhere.
  • Should countries be allowed to build duplicates? After all, if the White House gives such a sweet bonus then shouldn't France or China be able to build the White House too? At that point these buildings become not really special in any way - the White House becomes just a "Bureaucracy Multiplier Palace", the Eiffel Tower just a "Prestige Tower", etc.
  • Some of these monuments are ancient, like Angkor Wat, and are special for this very reason. While you might be able to destroy these in-game, the idea of rebuilding them just doesn't make sense. The idea of another country rebuilding them in another place doubly doesn't make sense.
As should be clear from the above, making monuments generic and buildable by anyone would not only take inordinate time and effort for the development team compared to what it adds to the game, but also cause them to lose a lot of their unique appeal and introduces many strange exception cases that also has to be dealt with. This means we were left with two options: historical monuments in predefined places, or no monuments in any places. We felt it would be a missed opportunity to not acknowledge the enormous feats of engineering countries often engaged in for prestige during this era, so we went with door number one.
Those are very valid reasons, thanks much for such detailed response.
The most important is esthethic one.
Biggest problem for me is no alternative way at all. Was thinking of just one or two alternative placements of new monuments. For example if France dosen't pay for Tower, year or two later such opportunity will pop up for Austria in Wien.
 
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enormous feats of engineering countries often engaged in for prestige
Here even you acknowledge what the heart of the problem is: nations build monuments for PRESTIGE (which already exists as a game-mechanic) and not for global national modifiers, like better bureaucracy. It is so unimmersive even in its defense you had to cling on prestige, because everything else makes no sense.
 
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It's functionality we do want to add, but haven't yet, so it's not something I can promise at release. There's a small bundle of potential mechanics oriented around control of narrow naval passages I'd like to explore, so I don't want to prioritize shoehorning in special mechanics only for canals that will rarely have an impact if we can create something more coherent and universally applicable instead.
This is something I can see to be very useful. Control the gibralter straight and suez and you virtually blockade the entire mediterranean. There are so many choke points currently possible for a naval blockade today, and they dont actually require you to physically have control of the land around it. You can just as easily stop enemy convoys from entering the mediterranean by owning gibralter as you can stop them by having parked 10 ships if the owner of gibralter is neutral to your conflict
 
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We've got rid of all those silly bonuses from being a certain country like immigration-because-America from boring old V2! Long live the ... oh, okay, we replaced it with bonuses because you own a province like democracy-because-White House.
 
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Why can we simply not have monuments appear on the map unless they are in a historically accurate province?

So if the Statue of Liberty is in Manhattan, sure, then it’s on the map, but if it’s built in, say, Veracruz, it won’t appear on the map, but would have its normal effect. That seems a fair compromise.
 
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the White House becomes just a "Bureaucracy Multiplier Palace
Isn't this essentially what it is as it's currently implemented? The desire to build several of these monuments reflects the fact that they have arbitrary global bonuses, so you're gimped if you don't have one. This leads to the situation where players are incentivized to conquer them for their bonuses, so you'll end up with players conquering Maryland just for a building. If you want monuments with magic bonuses, it'd be better to just let them be built anywhere, and call them wonders (like Civ). Monuments in my opinion, would feel far more "impactful" if they were just decorative without modifiers, since then I would see them more as unique province flavour rather than a bonus modifier.
 
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We felt it would be a missed opportunity to not acknowledge the enormous feats of engineering countries often engaged in for prestige during this era, so we went with door number one.

For PRESTIGE, not Bureaucracy.


Regarding Vatican City and how it grants additional power to the clergy regardless of state religion, it's mainly a result of the fact that we can't trigger a Production Method on religion - it's not a Law, or a Tech, or another Production Method. If time permits we might add that functionality, which would then easily let us change the behavior of Vatican City depending on the state religion of the controlling country.

Can you trigger PMs by tag? This would be the easiest I believe, one PM for Papal States and another for everyone else.
 
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