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EU4 - Development Diary - 20th of August 2019

Good day and welcome to another EUIV Dev Diary. This week we shall be tackling the Ecumenical matter of Catholicism in the game.

Catholicism is a bit of a funny one when it comes to religions in EUIV. When the game came out, it was one of the few religions that actually had mechanics attached to it, which helped in making it an attractive choice, both in terms of power for your nation, and flavour for your campaign. Over the many years of EUIV's updates and expansions, many religions across the world have been given their own mechanics and flavour, leaving Catholicism in the lurch. Its mechanisms have dulled in the face of those from other Christian denominations, and it is often blasted as a poor pick of religion for a budding European power, when Protestantisms and the Orthodox and Coptics are such tantalising alternatives.

In the upcoming European Expansion, we want to empower the Catholic faith, and bring a sparkle back to the appeal of remaining faithful to Rome, as well as allowing the Papal States themselves to thrive in the power and authority as being head of the faith, and really feel the impact of the faith being torn apart when reformation hits.

Firstly, as anybody knows, the root of all power is money. To this end, the upcoming expansion will be introducing the Papal Tithe. There will be a treasury in the game, not owned by any nation but belonging to the Curia itself.

As will be a common theme, numbers and UI are far from final

20th Aug Tithe.jpg


The Curia Treasury fattens up based on the number of Catholic nations in the world. The money is not taken from the nations, but rather is added to the Curia based on the amount of Crown Land held by the Clergy Estate in these nations. Nations who pass the Dissolution of Monasteries will stop their lands from contributing to the Tithe.

The Tithe can also be directly paid into by particularly pious nations. Nations can buy indulgence which pays directly into the Tithe, and in addition to feeling relief from avoiding purgatory, can enjoy added Papal Influence and temporary defence from Excommunication.

The Curia Treasury can of course be dipped into, and the privilege few who can do so are the lofty Curia Controllers themselves. Each Curia Controller can pass one Papal Bull in their tenure, which is an action the exclusively costs money from this Curia Treasury. Papal Bulls are unique actions that affect all of Catholicism:

  • Illius qui se pro divini: Enables Crusades after the Age limit is imposed.
  • Apostolicae Servitutis: 50% Cheaper Curia Powers (Levy Church Tax, Proclaim Holy War etc..)
  • Praeclara Carissimi: -5% Development cost
  • Immensa Aeterni Dei: -10% Embracement cost, 25% Institution Spread
    Cardinals will spread institution if the institution has been embraced in a province of another Cardinal or the capital of the Curia(Rome).
  • Libertas ecclesiae: +20% Imperial Authority Growth
    Available if Emperor & Catholic Empire. (Not White Peace)
    All Catholic Nations in HRE get +15 towards approving HRE reforms
  • Dei Gratia Rex: +0.5 Yearly Absolutism & -2 Unrest in Catholic Provinces & -25% Drill Decay
Costs for these are a base of 1,000 ducats from the Papal Treasury, and increase as Reform Desire does. If devout Catholic nations wish to maintain the ability to empower their entire faith in the face of growing Reformation Desire, then they will have to expand Catholic lands or force convert their heretical neighbours.

The Pope himself has also been empowered with the option, but not the obligation, to play as a Kingmaker within the Catholic Faith. Cardinals will still spawn within Europe, but the Pope has the choice to directly appoint cardinals to other nations out of his own pocket.

20th Aug Appoint Card.jpg


The Papal State can assign Cardinals to nations who he thinks will best serve Catholicism. The cost for doing so is relative to the target nation's development and number of existing Cardinals. The Papal State will enjoy added influence to becoming the Papal Controller themselves through this action, and the target nation will have a longstanding boost to relations towards the Pope. Of course, the Papal States can assign Cardinals directly to their own land, but this action will come with a boost to their corruption. To make the traditionally invisible Cardinal mechanic somewhat more omnipresent, Cardinals are now visible on the (placeholder?) religious mapmode.

Finally the Pope can himself add directly to the Tithe with his own treasury. This may be of use for a particularly expansionist Pope who dismays other Christians by declaring themselves Kingdom of God. This Decision will no longer disable Curia mechanics.

Italy and Catholicism remain focus points for the upcoming Update and Expansion, and we're not done talking about them. When the situation in Europe gets a bit spicy thanks to theses being nailed onto doors, there may be more popping up, but for now that's [REDACTED]

Next week, we'll be talking about something completely different, and hopefully welcome news to those who have been wondering what's happening with that 64-bit support we were talking about earlier in the year.
 
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In a smaller and less vitriol lush reccomendation that others found here; Perhaps after the kingdom of god event, all catholic theocracies (bishoprics and monastic/military orders) should get an event deciding whether to become a vassal of his most mighty Bishop of Rome, or apostasise and become a secular monarchy, after suffering huge stability hits of course
 
But trucebreaking four times in a row will give you coalitions for decades. And the boosts are still incredibly underwhelming: the Reformation just popped? Better give the remaining catholics -5% dev cost!
One truce break normally costs you 5stab. Being able to bank 4 stab means you can trucebreak and be back up to at least +1 stab without even touching your admin mana. I do not believe it was being implied you should trucebreak four times, though that is of course also possible, but more that you have a 'free' truce break.
 
Please, not another development cost reduction! Even without burghers estate minigame, there is still a minimum of two things to keep in mind before going to increase development: state edict and university. Now if my nation is a papal controller I have to also remember to enact this bull. Also, it is easy to imagine a situation: become papal controller, enact the bull to not forget it later, then forget about the development being in war with, say, Ottomans, and just before I have 999 of diplo points Pope dies. That's just an example of the situation after usually stop playing EU at all for a long time - it's not my decision that leads to failure but a mere problem of keeping things in mind without proper visualization and/or reminding mechanics.
Going full min-max is kinda your personal choice, not some prerequisite of a successful campaign.
 
I hope not I hope it's one more age that you can keep them alive. It makes little sense for them to go past the age of reformation.
Yeah, crusades as they are in the game already is pushing a bit (after Varna, the usual source lists only one more crusade), but after the Reformation, only something huge such as the Ottomans taking a part of Italy or the HRE would make it plausible, I think.
Which is not outside of the realm of the game, far from it, but shouldn't be taken for granted either.
If the button really does allow crusades after the Reformation, it should only be possible to press it when the core Catholic world is heavily threatened by a heathen nation(s), or something of the sort.
 
I am a bit dissapointed that the curia controller and papal influence mechanics don't seem to get updated.

- Papal influence: Since the "click every few years to use bonus" argument was used against the (now) old estates mechanic - how is papal influence really different in that perspective?

- The curia controller is also a weak and unfun mechanic because it requires RNG and investment on your side that you tend to forget, as other have mentioned. Can't it at least still be RNG, but keep the factors that affect it automated ? (i.e. make the % only be affected by Nr of cardinals, events, realtionship with the Pope, religious unity etc)

Overall I don't believe that these changes will make me want to stay catholic as a German prince for example - ("Dei Gratia Rex" sounds powerfull, but then again not really as 0.5 absolutism is just OK and -2 unrest in Catholic provinces is not great; as tolerance of the true faith is the strong point of catholisism anyway- basically you will just make provinces with negative unrest go even more negative).

The thing I was REALLY hoping to see changed is that Catholics are the only religion that has 1 negative trait (-1 Tolerance of heretics) and 1 positive. Every other religion has 2 positive attributes, which is I believe unfair - and not necessarily historical , as Catholic monarchs weren't inherently less tolerant of heretics than Sunni or Orthodox.
This (among many other factors) makes it a weaker choice than Protestant or Reformed - especially with the changes to religious / humanist ideas and conversion, as you are forced to go the religious route as a Catholic.
 
Yeah, crusades as they are in the game already is pushing a bit (after Varna, the usual source lists only one more crusade), but after the Reformation, only something huge such as the Ottomans taking a part of Italy or the HRE would make it plausible, I think.
Which is not outside of the realm of the game, far from it, but shouldn't be taken for granted either.
If the button really does allow crusades after the Reformation, it should only be possible to press it when the core Catholic world is heavily threatened by a heathen nation(s), or something of the sort.
In name You're right, but there were multiple anti-Ottoman Catholic coalitions culminating in the Ottoman failure on the fields of Vienna in 1683, which were crusades in all but name.
 
One truce break normally costs you 5stab. Being able to bank 4 stab means you can trucebreak and be back up to at least +1 stab without even touching your admin mana. I do not believe it was being implied you should trucebreak four times, though that is of course also possible, but more that you have a 'free' truce break.

That's more reasonable, but still very niche. The other stuff PI can get you is quite good as well, so if the "point" of being catholic is going to be to save up to 200, use the bull, truce break and then stab up again, pretty much any other religion would have gotten you more by the time that comes together, and you probably would lose more than you gain due to the randomness of becoming curia controller: spending PI normally would be better on average. And you're still going to have to deal with every other Catholic nation getting stuff through PI easier, which will work against you in the long run.
 
Just correcting your banking stuff. I don't think you're claiming that 4*100 <= 200, are you?
Even my maths isn't that bad.

This is a quote from the DD:
  • Apostolicae Servitutis: 50% Cheaper Curia Powers (Levy Church Tax, Proclaim Holy War etc..)
And the comment I was replying to was specifically talking about this ability. So the sum we are after is 50*4.
 
That's more reasonable, but still very niche. The other stuff PI can get you is quite good as well, so if the "point" of being catholic is going to be to save up to 200, use the bull, truce break and then stab up again, pretty much any other religion would have gotten you more by the time that comes together, and you probably would lose more than you gain due to the randomness of becoming curia controller: spending PI normally would be better on average. And you're still going to have to deal with every other Catholic nation getting stuff through PI easier, which will work against you in the long run.
I wholeheartedly agree on every point here. Curia Controller mechanics are hopefully getting changed (again) and described in later DDs, because the current system doesn't appeal.
 
Seems like Catholicism still means the best way to be Catholic is to be the only Catholic nation left in the world. Papal Bulls will also require you to be the Papal controller meaning it´s still just a inferior Orthodox version of Saints since you can´t use it whenever you please.Plus only 3 Papal bulls can be considered useful unless the Crusade mechanic proofs to be a useful tool for expansion into countrys like the Ottomans or even Ming with enough bullshit going on.
 
Please, not another development cost reduction! Even without burghers estate minigame, there is still a minimum of two things to keep in mind before going to increase development: state edict and university. Now if my nation is a papal controller I have to also remember to enact this bull. Also, it is easy to imagine a situation: become papal controller, enact the bull to not forget it later, then forget about the development being in war with, say, Ottomans, and just before I have 999 of diplo points Pope dies. That's just an example of the situation after usually stop playing EU at all for a long time - it's not my decision that leads to failure but a mere problem of keeping things in mind without proper visualization and/or reminding mechanics.

So... would you rather never have -5% discount than occasionally forgetting about it?
 
- When will golden century be fixed? Like a true Iberian focus?
- when will playing Ming become fun again?
- when will those changes to corruption &territory be changed so that the game is fun to play in the way you want, and not always in the TC road if you go for a WC?

Those are the questions i'm asking myself right now.
 
The two things I really hope and think should happen when you form the Kingdom of God is 1. A tag switch, how awesome would it be to see “Kingdom of God” sprawled across the map. And 2. I honestly think it should make the Papal States/ Kingdom of God the permanent Curia controller.
 
The two things I really hope and think should happen when you form the Kingdom of God is 1. A tag switch, how awesome would it be to see “Kingdom of God” sprawled across the map. And 2. I honestly think it should make the Papal States/ Kingdom of God the permanent Curia controller.
Yeah. It should feel like a real reward that was worth working for.
 
Any plans to remove the increased tech cost for embracing the Counter-Reformation?
 
Great additions to Catholicism! In my view it's one of the greatest religions, once there are just a few catholic countries.

But just to be sure: the current mechanics of Catholicism remain, and these in the DD are added on top of that, right? We can still use Papal Influence to get some bonuses?

If that's the case, I really hope you add a popup banner once a new bonus is available (so once you get 50 Papal Influence). It's too easy to forget. All other religions have popup banners like these.
 
In name You're right, but there were multiple anti-Ottoman Catholic coalitions culminating in the Ottoman failure on the fields of Vienna in 1683, which were crusades in all but name.
I see, but how involved was the papacy in all this?
If it wasn't any more than a member of the league, I suppose it could be modelled by a regular coalition, no?

Which leads me to another point: coalitions also seriously need to be reworked, as it is now they work fairly well with AE to punish a nation that expands far too fast, but it lacks any concept of balance of power, a integral idea birthed exactly during that time period.
No way the great powers of the time would tolerate their rivals completely eclipsing them without prompting a reactionary alliance, which, I think, is what happened to the Ottomans, no?
 
But will there be nerfs to the spread of Protestantism to countries that want to remain Catholic?