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EU4 - Development Diary - 14th of April 2016

Hello everyone, and welcome to another development diary for Europa Universalis IV. Today we’ll focus a bit on Mare Nostrum, and what was the goal of the features in that expansion and the accompanying patch.


Improve the Naval aspect of the game
The Naval game is something that has received quite a few complaints over the year, so we really wanted to make an expansion on the naval theme.

Some of the features like Sailors and the Combat Tweaks were just too much of a rework of core concepts that they had to go into the free patch.

We’re rather happy with how the naval combat now works, now that quality actually matters, and it is no longer just about who has the most money to maintain the most heavy-ships.

The Naval Missions, and the Repair mechanics was based on our experiences of the Hearts of Iron IV development, and how much more fun it made the naval game, to avoid constant micromanagement. It was one of the main features we built the exoansion around.

The changes to making blockades more visible, and having Admirals that could be good at blockading was a few free features that have proved to be a success as well.


More Peacetime Activities
After Art of War there has been a constant barrage of requests for more peace-time activities. Pretty much every expansion since then have had a large focus on adding more things to do at peace time. El Dorado had exploration related mechanics, Common Sense added Development, Interaction with Subjects & Parliaments, while Cossacks had Estates and Diplomatic Feedback, not to mention all minor actions added for the all.

Mare Nostrum is no exception there, with two major systems to enhance gameplay outside of war. First of all, we reworked how espionage works for the free patch, to make it more of an interactive mechanic, and far more transparent than before. We also made Support Rebels more of a valid option, and added lots of new spy actions.

Secondly, the feature that was the biggest to develop for Mare Nostrum. The Condottieri. We designed and added this because at the end of the day fighting in eu4 is fun. It was also heavily influenced of the fact that HoI4 testing showed us it was great fun helping out in the Spanish Civil War while still building up your own nation. Of course, Eu4 was not really designed to have units checking two sets of allegiances, so the amount of work to get it to the state we have now was enormous.

It is also the only feature that has made the AI able to crush all QA within a few decades, so we had to scale it back a bit when balancing.


Regional Specific Enhacements
Every expansion we try to add unique mechanics to some part of the world, to make for more variation in gameplay.

Besides implementing a detailed map for central and east africa, with lots of new nations and ideas, we added two cool features to make some less popular countries played, while keeping to the naval theme.

There is not much to say about the Slave Raids and Trade Leagues, except that they work, they are fun, and they create diversity.


Community Requested
We also try to add in things that the community requests in each patch, and Mare Nostrum contains two such features..

Unconditional Surrender - This was requested by both SP & MP proponents, and was added to make it possible to get out wars when you have truly lost, without the opponent totally ruining your nation forever.


Timeline Mapmode - I think this feature has been requested since eu1. One of the most

Balance Related
Obviously, these are the features that tend to be not so popular.

Corruption - This solves quite a lot of balance problems, and makes for a more challenging game longterm.

States and Territories - This solves the problems of overseas mechanics which you had to work around and exploit to benefit from. It also gives greater flexibility to the player.


The teams favorites

So, what did the development team like the most from Mare Nostrum?

Condottieri won in a landslide!


0fC0qse.jpg
 
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The problem with corruption is how much blatantly better vassal expanding is than anything else right now.

Vassal expanding currently avoids:

Corruption.
Converting.
Rebels.
Allows you to work around hostile core creation cost in many circumstances.


It allows you to:

Take wrong-cultured land without penalties.
Take wrong-religion land without penalties.
Take land without spending any points initially, allowing you to take land much quicker than otherwise restricted by coring points.
Spend only 8 monarch points on the development, rather than the 10 of coring.

It's so much blatantly better to vassal expand than anything else right now it's a bit absurd. And the ahistoricalness of it all is at an all time high. It's at the point where expanding via coring is actually a little questionable, and the tutorial should basically be an intro to releasing, granting provinces to, and annexing vassals.
 
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Corruption - This solves quite a lot of balance problems, and makes for a more challenging game longterm.

I can't believe Johan is still hanging on to this idea. Corruption hasn't solved any balance problems, instead it's tearing apart nations like the Timurids and the Qara Qoyunlu and driving every other nation into debt. This is the only patch where I've commonly seen over half of my enemy's allies decling a call to arms due to debt. Of course, the "fix" will be just to get rid of corruption for the AI, applying some ridiculous buff as they did with forts, instead of recognising a broken mechanic that doesn't make the game harder, but simply takes longer to ultimately achieve the same goals.

We designed and added this because at the end of the day fighting in eu4 is fun.

This is a rather ironic statement considering Johan is making every attempt possible to prevent us from fighting.
 
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Instead of being enabled by an idea group, espionage actions should be enabled by diplomatic tech.
Bam — diplomatic tech useful, corruption for unbalanced research unneeded.

(sitting at 0 corruption seems fairly easy - I'm playing ... Austria)
/rolleyes
 
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@Johan

Respectfully, please realize that Espionage ideas will never be popular or even useful. They offer so little compared to every other idea group. Apart from the 2 Colonizing ideas, which unlock a huge gameplay mechanic, every other idea group offers exclusively direct benefits to your nation and rarely rely on the player constantly micromanaging their diplomats. Espionage just let's you unlock some extra gameplay that is rarely useful. Because Espionage ideas sucked in the past, every player has learned to play the game without those diplomatic actions. So you have conditioned the player to never pick Espionage because on one hand they see some seemingly unnecessary diplomatic interactions, and on the other hand they see a bunch of bonuses that will make them stronger.

Make the diplomatic actions contained in Espionage to be part of Diplomatic Technology instead. And then convert the Espionage group to be a more aggressive version of the Diplomatic ideas. Have it give Dip Rep and extra diplomats, improve spy defense/offense efficiency and the impact of spy actions, improve siege ability, reduce or eliminate time to send spies after being caught, give extra diplomatic slots, reduce unrest (since internal agents keep an eye on population) and increase loyalty of subject nations (since external agents keep an eye on them). Also the finisher would be to gain one province extra vision on yours and your subject's borders, as well as vision of the capital province and its surrounding provinces of every nation you currently have a diplomat assigned or sent a diplomat recently. Suddenly Espionage is a lot more appealing and you revitalize the interest in Espionage actions.

Actually, that is some valid points.
 
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Mare Nostrum is no exception there, with two major systems to enhance gameplay outside of war. First of all, we reworked how espionage works for the free patch, to make it more of an interactive mechanic, and far more transparent than before. We also made Support Rebels more of a valid option, and added lots of new spy actions.
Are there plans to make those spy actions actually usable/viable at some point? The opportunity cost for taking the idea group needed to unlock them is too great, when you could instead be taking an idea group that directly buffs your important capabilities, like generating money, buffing troops, or being able to more efficiently use MP.

As a side note, what exactly was the intended use for that idea group's new finisher, being able to steal maps? I can't think of a single situation where it would be useful. If you are a colonizer, you can gain the ability to chart stuff out on your own with the exploration idea group on the second idea, instead of needing to finish it. And if you aren't a colonizer, then the natural spread of map knowledge is more than enough for whatever it is you are doing.

Edit:
Also, Support Rebels is bugged, you can't always support rebels that have the potential to rise up.
 
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@Johan

Respectfully, please realize that Espionage ideas will never be popular or even useful. They offer so little compared to every other idea group. Apart from the 2 Colonizing ideas, which unlock a huge gameplay mechanic, every other idea group offers exclusively direct benefits to your nation and rarely rely on the player constantly micromanaging their diplomats. Espionage just let's you unlock some extra gameplay that is rarely useful. Because Espionage ideas sucked in the past, every player has learned to play the game without those diplomatic actions. So you have conditioned the player to never pick Espionage because on one hand they see some seemingly unnecessary diplomatic interactions, and on the other hand they see a bunch of bonuses that will make them stronger.

Make the diplomatic actions contained in Espionage to be part of Diplomatic Technology instead. And then convert the Espionage group to be a more aggressive version of the Diplomatic ideas. Have it give Dip Rep and extra diplomats, improve spy defense/offense efficiency and the impact of spy actions, improve siege ability, reduce or eliminate time to send spies after being caught, give extra diplomatic slots, reduce unrest (since internal agents keep an eye on population) and increase loyalty of subject nations (since external agents keep an eye on them). Also the finisher would be to gain one province extra vision on yours and your subject's borders, as well as vision of the capital province and its surrounding provinces of every nation you currently have a diplomat assigned or sent a diplomat recently. Suddenly Espionage is a lot more appealing and you revitalize the interest in Espionage actions.
 
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This devdiary be like 'WE DID ALL GOOD. WE ALL LIKE IT' - cmon, it looks strange o_O

I see 2 main problems for now:
1) New mechanics work bad (as Youbar sad before here) - forts are broken, corruption kiils the AI.
2) New changes are completely ahistorical and logically unacceptable - like 'overseas' provinces near your capital and 0% authonomy 'states' in far-far distant lands possible now. Like 'My capital is in the middle of Europe, but I will make some lands in China as 'states' so they will now be more 'mine' then other 'non-state' lands in Europe. Jesus ****ing Crist...

p.s. And yeah, condotieres are realy bad for serious MP games.
 
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I can't believe Johan is still hanging on to this idea. Corruption hasn't solved any balance problems, instead it's tearing apart nations like the Timurids and the Qara Qoyunlu and driving every other nation into debt. This is the only patch where I've commonly seen over half of my enemy's allies decling a call to arms due to debt. Of course, the "fix" will be just to get rid of corruption for the AI, applying some ridiculous buff as they did with forts, instead of recognising a broken mechanic that doesn't make the game harder, but simply takes longer to ultimately achieve the same goals..

The AI needs to be severly improved here.
 
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More Peacetime Activities
After Art of War there has been a constant barrage of requests for more peace-time activities. Pretty much every expansion since then have had a large focus on adding more things to do at peace time. El Dorado had exploration related mechanics, Common Sense added Development, Interaction with Subjects & Parliaments, while Cossacks had Estates and Diplomatic Feedback, not to mention all minor actions added for the all.

Mare Nostrum is no exception there, with two major systems to enhance gameplay outside of war. First of all, we reworked how espionage works for the free patch, to make it more of an interactive mechanic, and far more transparent than before. We also made Support Rebels more of a valid option, and added lots of new spy actions.

Secondly, the feature that was the biggest to develop for Mare Nostrum. The Condottieri. We designed and added this because at the end of the day fighting in eu4 is fun. It was also heavily influenced of the fact that HoI4 testing showed us it was great fun helping out in the Spanish Civil War while still building up your own nation. Of course, Eu4 was not really designed to have units checking two sets of allegiances, so the amount of work to get it to the state we have now was enormous.

It is also the only feature that has made the AI able to crush all QA within a few decades, so we had to scale it back a bit when balancing.
Hmm .. these are indeed "Piecetime activities", but I believe players are rather asking for "peacetime mechanics", hence mechanics actually making the game fun&challenging also during times of peace, rather than having some additional buttons to press.
Many suggestions have been made in the past: introduce family trees, populations mechanics, a revamped trade system, etc. I'm not advocating a particular mechanic here, but I want to emphasize that the character underlying these suggestions should be understood and taken serious, as it can well serve as a blueprint for the development of peacetime mechanics.
 
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Improve the Naval aspect of the game
The Naval game is something that has received quite a few complaints over the year, so we really wanted to make an expansion on the naval theme.

Some of the features like Sailors and the Combat Tweaks were just too much of a rework of core concepts that they had to go into the free patch.

We’re rather happy with how the naval combat now works, now that quality actually matters, and it is no longer just about who has the most money to maintain the most heavy-ships.

The Naval Missions, and the Repair mechanics was based on our experiences of the Hearts of Iron IV development, and how much more fun it made the naval game, to avoid constant micromanagement. It was one of the main features we built the exoansion around.

The changes to making blockades more visible, and having Admirals that could be good at blockading was a few free features that have proved to be a success as well.

As an avid naval player, I was extremely happy to hear about Mare Nostrum. But in the end, I was utterly disappointed because navies are still close to completely optional and investing in one cannot be justified except in a few specific cases.

Worse, every patch seems to reduce their use:
  • They cannot block straits if the ennemy controls both sides anymore
  • A few patches ago, raising troops in subjects overseas was made possible
  • From this patch, it is now possible to recruit mercenaries on the other side of the world
If I'm not an island power, why do I need a navy? For the blockades? It clearly is not worth it.

You had an incredible occasion to give fleets some impact when you added siege pips to admirals (sieging coastal provinces) but you didn't. While you may have succeeded in balancing naval battles, you haven't given players a reason to build navies.

The DLC I had been waiting for since I started playing EU4 will be the first one I do not buy.

(By the way, as naval missions do not replace micro management but try to do it for the player (and naturally cannot do it as well as a human), I believe the concept is flawed.)
 
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Corruption - This solves quite a lot of balance problems, and makes for a more challenging game longterm.

Johan, could you please elaborate a bit more on that, because considering the way that the Forums have been on fire for the last week or so [this in itself not being in anyway unexpected, but the fact that it is on fire over THIS SPECIFIC CONCEPT makes it a bit more meaningful], this is a thing that's rather important to discuss.

First, could you please elaborate more on which balance problems corruption is aiming to fix? More specifically, what problems it aims to fix that existing mechanics didn't already cover?
Please, indulge me for a moment here. One line isn't nearly enough.
 
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Corruption doesn't make the game harder... You can deal with it, but the AI fails completely. And when your opponents get weaker, you get relatively stronger, and the game gets easier.
 
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Corruption - This solves quite a lot of balance problems, and makes for a more challenging game longterm.

What it does right now is break and bankrupt AI nation after AI nation and ruining a lot of former interesting starting nations.
Corruption per se is not a bad idea, but the AI needs to learn to handle it and it need quite some balancing outside of Europe.
 
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So the main peacetime mechanic introduced in this patch is the ability to fight in wars whilst at peace, just admit that your team has either no idea or is otherwise unwilling to - due to the nature of EU4 - introduce deep and interesting peacetime mechanics.

Secondly, I fail to see how uneven tech and religious disunity were balance issues that needed to be addressed and even if they were, there was already penalties for religious disunity and of course for being behind on tech. Once again the solution wasn't to make admin and diplo tech more necessary, but simply to fine players for having unbalanced technology. This is problematic further because of the tech costs and maths involved depending on leaders it can be quite impossible for ROTW nations to stay balanced and furthermore, the only solution is to wait around and do basically nothing for large periods of the game - these certainly adds to the game's longevity I grant you, that is if you are enough of a masochist to continue playing. Though perhaps I'm being unfair, if you reward Paradox for introducing this dumb mechanic by buying their DLC you can then use your conduttori to fight in other people's wars whilst you're playing waiting simulator.
 
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Johan, can you expand on that? I am willing to have an open mind, but somehow I seem to be always missing an explanation of why it is needed.

Let me try.

Problem: One tech type is way more important than the others (imbalance).
Solution: Add a system that punishes the player whenever he picks the strongest option available to him, thus making everything important (balance).

Problem: Expanding makes you way stronger than not expanding (imbalance).
Solution: Make expansion extremely expensive and sometimes non cost-efficient (balance).

Problem: Nobody cares about gold (imbalance).
Solution: Add gold costs to a bunch of stuff that didn't cost gold before (balance).

It's a clumsy solution that doesn't make the player experience more engaging but it does solve the problems.
 
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Corruption does make the game more challenging which is good imo.
The naval rework is also really nice and fighting proxy wars with conditierri has been great fun in multiplayer so far; the fact that the feature beat all of QA really makes me want to try the game in hard-mode.

The game does require a different angle of approach now tho when playing. You can't just blob senselessly anymore instead pick your targets well and play smarter than before. WC and massive blobbing all that is still very much possible it's just going to take some getting used to.

Overall I think you guys did a great job with 1.16.2!
 
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