• Victoria 3 - Sign up now!

    The journey begins, sign up now and get a special in-game item when the game is released.


  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning
  • Crusader Kings II Expansion Subscription

    Subscribe to the CK II Expansion and enjoy unlimited access to 13 major expansions and more!


CK2 Dev Diary #69: Another Journey to Tibet

Greetings!

We’ve previously had a DevDiary about Tibet, where we talked about the new provinces, cultures and religions in the area. That was quite some time ago, and we’ve since then improved the area even further! We want to ensure that the area is both interesting and fun to play in, so we’ve put some work into making it just that - with an improved title setup and additional interesting cultures.

Tibet 2.0.png

The province density in the area has been increased - Counties in Tibet are now roughly the same size as those in Persia or Transoxiania, both in order to present a more appealing historical scenario, and to make the area less of a chore to actually play in (with the old Counties, it could take months to move armies between them).

Note that for those who fear that this will decrease performance - we’ve done plenty of work on it, and all our tests show this version of the game to be the fastest yet.

Tibet 2.0 Cultures.png

In the very earliest start dates (769 and 867) there are still going to be remnants of two ancient cultures that existed in western and northern Tibet, the Zhangzhung and the Sumpa. While they are subjugated by the Tibetans (Bödpa) they still retain their traditions. Both of these cultures are known by the Chinese for having ‘Kingdoms ruled by Women’, and thus have access to the Absolute Cognatic inheritance law much like the Basque.

De Jure.png

The setup of De Jure kingdoms has changed as a consequence of the new Counties - now Xia is a De Jure title along with Kham, Ü-Tsang, Guge and Nepal. This gives the Xia more staying power, enhancing their historical role. Note that all titles in the area have plenty of cultural naming options, so the kingdom won’t be named Xia unless ruled by a Tangut-cultured character, for example.

Between Tibet, the new Tarim basin and the enhanced Persia you will now see a lot more movement, trade and conquest between the areas on the eastern half of the map. It will hopefully no longer feel as if the steppes and India are ‘worlds of their own’, but rather parts of a greater whole.
 

Thure

Chartularius Hamburgensis
54 Badges
May 13, 2009
16.875
7.859
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • East India Company Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
The Sakyas are very interesting, and I have not thought about them much as a dynasty, though they of course were all related. Their authority came from Three different offices, that of the Lama, that of the Dishi (basically their emissary at the Great Khan's Court), and that of the Ponchen (governor).

It's not really that the Saka are a dynasty... It was the Khon family which was ruling the Sakya.

'The leadership of the Sakya School is passed down through a hereditary system between the male members of the Sakya branch of the Khon family.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakya#Origins
 

insoman

Corporal
Sep 15, 2017
46
2
As in 769, both Alan and Saka cultures are present, both of which have a recognized connection to the older pastoral nomad population known as Scythians as recorded by their contemporaries, and whose affiliation, however distant, is generally accepted, then it is a fair comparison to say that the Saka have taken, in the terms of the game Crusader Kings 2, the decision to "settle as feudal", while the Alans have not.
One issue is that was there really an identity of Scythian? As you said the recognized connection, there is another nation which is more representative to eastern saka: Pashtuns, that live as clans and ruled by warlords. For now they retrospect their ancestor to a Muslim but not someone from khazak steppe. Same as Khotanese which did not call themselves Saka but Hvam, they suggested the founder of their kingdom is a son of ashoka. i do not find such Scythian-dominated steppe in recent memory. will you put pashtuns with alan together? if not, then there is no reason to make a special interaction between alan and agriculture Khotanese
 
Last edited:

SchwarzKatze

Field Marshal
46 Badges
Nov 8, 2008
5.250
3.470
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
and in the Tarim Basin, notably leaving behind a linguistic impression in the latter. The people here spoke a language we now call Saka, and by all contemporary sources were identified as Scythians contemporary to the Alans and with a Scythian-dominated steppe in recent memory.
May I ask which ones? The Chinese didn't associate any of the Tarim Oasis states with the Saka it seems.
 

Karlingid

Lt. General
64 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
1.243
958
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
May I ask which ones? The Chinese didn't associate any of the Tarim Oasis states with the Saka it seems.

the Kingdom of Khotan is the particularly famous one. Yanqi and Quici are mentioned by Chinese historians particularly I believe, it should be found in Records of the Grand Historian where the Sak migrate due to pressure from the Yuezhi who in turn were pushed by the Wusun. Chinese records I don't know the name of also state the Sai (the earlier mentioned "sak") settled in Jibin near what is now Kashmir. The Dunhuang Manuscripts might provide as a further source of reference, but I myself am using second-hand, not first-hand, so largely they are listed as various documents and histories from the Han dynasty.

Overall, though, I can almost assure you that the Book of Han holds a fairly nice record indicating the Sak or Sai as settling in the Tarim, and as being nomads in Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan earlier.
 

SchwarzKatze

Field Marshal
46 Badges
Nov 8, 2008
5.250
3.470
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
the Kingdom of Khotan is the particularly famous one. Yanqi and Quici are mentioned by Chinese historians particularly I believe, it should be found in Records of the Grand Historian where the Sak migrate due to pressure from the Yuezhi who in turn were pushed by the Wusun. Chinese records I don't know the name of also state the Sai (the earlier mentioned "sak") settled in Jibin near what is now Kashmir. The Dunhuang Manuscripts might provide as a further source of reference, but I myself am using second-hand, not first-hand, so largely they are listed as various documents and histories from the Han dynasty.

Overall, though, I can almost assure you that the Book of Han holds a fairly nice record indicating the Sak or Sai as settling in the Tarim, and as being nomads in Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan earlier.

That's what I thought:
Actually, what are the historical sources that associate the nomadic Saka with the sedentary Khotanese? The wordings of Wikipedia led me to assume that some contemporary Chinese histories mention it, but after Ctrl+F through the sections about "the West" in Records of the Grand Historian, Book of Han, Book of Later Han, Book of Sui, Old Book of Tang, and New Book of Tang, while all of which except the first mention Khotan, I was surprised to find that only the Book of Han mentions the Sək (塞) people at all.

In the Book of Han, the said people was said to have lived northwest of Shule ( = Kashgar, at the far western end of the Tarim Basin) before it splintered, and the two states identified as remnants of the Sək were said to live in valleys in/by the Pamir Mountains and were nomadic. Meanwhile, Khotan was already a country with 3,300 households and 19,300 people, which makes it the second most populous country mentioned in the Tarim Basin, but with no mentions of any connection with the Sək people.

Perhaps some Persian account does connect Khotan and the Saka, but unfortunately I know no Farsi so it's a dead end. I don't think the Greeks, the other source of many contemporary records, knew Khotan either.
After re-reading Shiji, I found that it does mention Khotan, but didn't mention the Saka.
 

Karlingid

Lt. General
64 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
1.243
958
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
One issue is that was there really an identity of Scythian? As you said the recognized connection, there is another nation which is more representative to eastern saka: Pashtuns, that live as clans and ruled by warlords. For now they retrospect their ancestor to a Muslim but not someone from khazak steppe. Same as Khotanese which did not call themselves Saka but Hvam, they suggested the founder of their kingdom is a son of ashoka. i do not find such Scythian-dominated steppe in recent memory. will you put pashtuns with alan together? if not, then there is no reason to make a special interaction between alan and agriculture Khotanese

The Pashtun are not Scythians. They're East Iranian, but that's generally vague. Early Persians made a very nice distinction between Saka, the nomads of the steppe we call Scythians, the Sogdians, and the Pashtun. Though the Scythians and Sogdians have a fair bit in common, and even share an etymological root with an Iranian term for "archer", they're distinct peoples. The Pashtun are partially nomadic in history, though they're a group of angry hillmen for much of their early recorded presence. The Scythians, meanwhile, are constantly treated historically as a singular group under roughly the same name across the spectrum. The Saka and Alans were closely related, cousins if you will, and I believe I made a point earlier about how language and culture is not inherently tied to one particular system of government or way of life. Did Mongols stop being Mongols when they formed the Yuan dynasty?

There is a distinct genetic and linguistic relationship between the Saka and the Alans. Depicting them with different portraits and radically different names doesn't make much sense. I do, however, trust Paradox- they made a special namelist for the Alans after all, so I'd imagine they'd select historically accurate names for the Saka, which in turn could be representative of their relationship. Though I still believe the Alans should use Iranian portraits (as their modern descendants do indeed appear fairly in line with an Iranian look, and the portraits can already model the fairer hair they sometimes have), I'm quite certain the Saka shall use them.

The Saka certainly had an identity for who they were. They wrote earlier in Prakrit and Chinese, but included references to their Iranian identity within. At some point, they dropped it entirely and just started writing in their own language. They were, as it turns out, Saka, who were related to the Saka who lived on the Pontic Steppe. I find your argument here not particularly strong: the Saka said they had at least partial descent from a son of Ashoka, or rather their monarchy did but says nothing about the actual majority population. So? The Irish of this time said that they were Scythians who migrated to Spain and conquered the island from short, dark men and literal gods. Doesn't mean they should be excluded, then, from the rest of the Celts. Similarly, the Hungarians claimed descent from Attila, but they aren't ruled by the Dulo clan, don't use the Turkic portraits, and bear distinctly Hungarian (Ugric) rather than Hunnish (Turkic) names.
 

Teutonic_Thrash

Diadochi King
93 Badges
Sep 6, 2011
2.776
398
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Federations
I find your argument here not particularly strong: the Saka said they had at least partial descent from a son of Ashoka, or rather their monarchy did but says nothing about the actual majority population. So? The Irish of this time said that they were Scythians who migrated to Spain and conquered the island from short, dark men and literal gods. Doesn't mean they should be excluded, then, from the rest of the Celts. Similarly, the Hungarians claimed descent from Attila, but they aren't ruled by the Dulo clan, don't use the Turkic portraits, and bear distinctly Hungarian (Ugric) rather than Hunnish (Turkic) names.
I don't think insoman's point was that they definitely are descended from Indian colonists, but rather that they no longer remember their nomadic history and so have created a new foundation myth. This shouldn't be surprising, as there's at least a thousand years of separation between the sedentary Saka and their distant ethno-linguistic cousins (the Alans).
 

Karlingid

Lt. General
64 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
1.243
958
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
I don't think insoman's point was that they definitely are descended from Indian colonists, but rather that they no longer remember their nomadic history and so have created a new foundation myth. This shouldn't be surprising, as there's at least a thousand years of separation between the sedentary Saka and their distant ethno-linguistic cousins (the Alans).

And the things I stated are similar situations- the Irish claimed to be Spanish Scythians themselves who fought the gods for the island, while the Hungarians invented a national origin involving their (possible) participation in the Hunnic confederation and their (very unlikely) decent from Attila. Neither of these is an accurate representation of their respective histories, but both were written down almost as if fact repeatedly, with complex genealogies written to support them.
 

Karlingid

Lt. General
64 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
1.243
958
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
That's what I thought:

After re-reading Shiji, I found that it does mention Khotan, but didn't mention the Saka.

It is worthy of noting that, although the dating of how the Saka got there is a bit debated, the language written in the area ('Khotanese") is identifiable as one of a couple dialects of Saka and traceable, albeit distantly, to the contemporary Alan/Old Ossetic language.

As for Persian sources, this should do you nicely enough. Call it a stretch, but I can see "Haumavarga" being or becoming Hvam without too much trouble, especially with Persian /u/ (or w) corresponds or became /v/ (like it did in, for instance, Hebrew) in the first half "Hauma".
 

SchwarzKatze

Field Marshal
46 Badges
Nov 8, 2008
5.250
3.470
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
It is worthy of noting that, although the dating of how the Saka got there is a bit debated, the language written in the area ('Khotanese") is identifiable as one of a couple dialects of Saka and traceable, albeit distantly, to the contemporary Alan/Old Ossetic language.
That Khotanese and Tumshuqese are collectively called "Saka" doesn't imply that they're the historical "Sacae", just like how while Agnean and Kuchean are collectively called "Tokharian", they're unrelated to the historical "Tokharoi". In the latter case, it's due to an early (and proven wrong) speculation that the people who lived in the sites of Agnidesi and Kucha were the "Tokharoi" mentioned in Greek sources, but since the scholarly use of "Tokharian" only applies to the Tarim Basin dwellers (and not the actual Tokharoi, whatever they had spoken), the name stuck.

Similarly, all linguistic evidence of "Saka" comes from the Tarim Basins states of Khotan and Tumshuq AFAIK, with nothing from the steppes. Furthermore, according to Encyclopedia Iranica, there are not special links between Khotanese and Ossetian beyond belonging to the Eastern Iranian Languages.
 

RedBaronFlyer

Captain
98 Badges
Jul 30, 2016
384
55
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Island Bound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event

insoman

Corporal
Sep 15, 2017
46
2
There is a distinct genetic and linguistic relationship between the Saka and the Alans. Depicting them with different portraits and radically different names doesn't make much sense. I do, however, trust Paradox- they made a special namelist for the Alans after all, so I'd imagine they'd select historically accurate names for the Saka, which in turn could be representative of their relationship. Though I still believe the Alans should use Iranian portraits (as their modern descendants do indeed appear fairly in line with an Iranian look, and the portraits can already model the fairer hair they sometimes have), I'm quite certain the Saka shall use them.
What i propose is not whether they are saka origin,but if there is a special interaction between them in ck2 era except their non mutual intelligibility language. I have never suggested that there is no linguistical linkage between Alanian and Khotanese, or they could even have ancestors lived in same ger in steppe. The point is, the morden linguistic and genetic research had not existed yet in the era of ck2. What played more important role are religion and cultural tranditions, and that is the reason why pdx put greeks, georgians, armenians, alanians and assyrians together. Back to saka and alan, their eastern iranian languages were written indeed, one by Kharosthi to record Sutras since their kingdom was founded and adopted Buddhism equally till their end, the other written by Georgian script for Bible. I suppose that the distinction here is enough to divide khotanese with their steppe ancestors and put these two culture into different groups in game.
The Pashtun are not Scythians. They're East Iranian, but that's generally vague. Early Persians made a very nice distinction between Saka, the nomads of the steppe we call Scythians, the Sogdians, and the Pashtun. Though the Scythians and Sogdians have a fair bit in common, and even share an etymological root with an Iranian term for "archer", they're distinct peoples. The Pashtun are partially nomadic in history, though they're a group of angry hillmen for much of their early recorded presence.
I don't know why you said it so sure that pashtun is no deal with Scythians, for there at least a large clans called sakzai that supposed to interact with saka, and the "sakastan" contains kandahar, which is the traditional seat of pashtun. there are much more traces than khotan, arent it? if there must be a Scythian/eastern iranian culture group, i would like to put these two reckless hillmen together rather tarim dwellers.
Otherwise, consider the wide distribution of saka, maybe the ancestor had reached to southern tarim on the first spread of IndoAryan with ancestors of pashtuns whose language is more closer with Khotanese rather than ossetian, but not with those who stayed in Eurasia steppe.
 

insoman

Corporal
Sep 15, 2017
46
2
Did Mongols stop being Mongols when they formed the Yuan dynasty?
well, the mongol who adopted islam did. Also Turkish muslim and buddhist had a longdrawnfight in tarim basin. Same things still happen in our time, Urdu/Hindu are one thing essentially, and their speaker regard each as enemies. Those are evidence that language is not determined for nation's relation. And the thousand years buddhism history and hindu/sino/altai cultural impact are enough to differentiate khotanese saka with the scythian ancestor of alanian.
 

Karlingid

Lt. General
64 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
1.243
958
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
What i propose is not whether they are saka origin,but if there is a special interaction between them in ck2 era except their non mutual intelligibility language. I have never suggested that there is no linguistical linkage between Alanian and Khotanese, or they could even have ancestors lived in same ger in steppe. The point is, the morden linguistic and genetic research had not existed yet in the era of ck2. What played more important role are religion and cultural tranditions, and that is the reason why pdx put greeks, georgians, armenians, alanians and assyrians together. Back to saka and alan, their eastern iranian languages were written indeed, one by Kharosthi to record Sutras since their kingdom was founded and adopted Buddhism equally till their end, the other written by Georgian script for Bible. I suppose that the distinction here is enough to divide khotanese with their steppe ancestors and put these two culture into different groups in game.

I don't know why you said it so sure that pashtun is no deal with Scythians, for there at least a large clans called sakzai that supposed to interact with saka, and the "sakastan" contains kandahar, which is the traditional seat of pashtun. there are much more traces than khotan, arent it? if there must be a Scythian/eastern iranian culture group, i would like to put these two reckless hillmen together rather tarim dwellers.
Otherwise, consider the wide distribution of saka, maybe the ancestor had reached to southern tarim on the first spread of IndoAryan with ancestors of pashtuns whose language is more closer with Khotanese rather than ossetian, but not with those who stayed in Eurasia steppe.

I wasn't saying that the Saka and Alans should be in the same culture group- that'd be an absurd gap with the Khazars et al in the way. Despite this, the cultural traditions of the Byzantine group are a bit more sporadic than other culture groups- the Assyrians aren't really that similar to the Greeks, and neither are the Alans, while the Armenians and Georgians could arguably be distinct as well. Rather, it seems more like a grouping of "Old" cultures, which is potentially why the Israelite cultures, though distinct, use its graphics and even similar on-map coloring. Another feature that the Byzantine cultures share is being "Kind of Persian", where people often confused the Armenians for Persians, the Byzantines purposefully brought numerous aspects of Persian military and dress into their carefully-monitored Roman(ish) culture, and the Assyrians lie on the border of Persia and would find themselves being much more "kind of Persian" due to simply being part of the greater Middle East in dress, cuisine, etc., sharing a closer bond with the Persian or Arabic groups perhaps.

I say the Pashtun are unrelated to the Scythians because they are. "East Iranian" isn't a real grouping, it's just an umbrella term for a load of smaller groups that people haven't properly built into families at the moment, but some have tried to do so. The languages show similarities to one another, but this is closer to a sprachbund than it is a proper genetic relationship. Rather than being a solid group of its own, it is instead closer to just saying "not Western". Though there was definitely Saka settlement in Afghanistan, their influence was actually more left on Wakhi (and the Wakhan region) than on Pashto (and most of Afghanistan). If groupings of Eastern Iranian were to represent a proper genetic relationship, then the closest language would actually be Sogdian (now Yaghnobi). The Sakzai/Sakazai are a good example of the Saka settlement, perhaps, but they'd have become heavily Pashtunized (at least seemingly) in much the same way that the Mughal Empire claimed descent from Mongols and Timurids but generally tended to be Persian or Indian. There are also other clans in Afghanistan claiming descent from a variety of places, from the Israelites to the Huns themselves, but all of them generally act in a very Pashtun manner and speak Pashto.

My ultimate point is that I never said to group them together into a singular group, though someone did suggest once a grouping for Tarim or non-Altaic Steppe cultures. My proposals were, rather, a similar namelist (which would happen anyway if Pdox uses historical records for naming), or use of the same portraits (as regardless of how genetic relationship plays into culture grouping, people who are genetically related on the same/similar latitude will often look similar). I believe you will find these proposals, not what you are suggesting I was proposing.
 

Thure

Chartularius Hamburgensis
54 Badges
May 13, 2009
16.875
7.859
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • East India Company Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
I wasn't saying that the Saka and Alans should be in the same culture group- that'd be an absurd gap with the Khazars et al in the way. Despite this, the cultural traditions of the Byzantine group are a bit more sporadic than other culture groups- the Assyrians aren't really that similar to the Greeks, and neither are the Alans, while the Armenians and Georgians could arguably be distinct as well. Rather, it seems more like a grouping of "Old" cultures, which is potentially why the Israelite cultures, though distinct, use its graphics and even similar on-map coloring. Another feature that the Byzantine cultures share is being "Kind of Persian", where people often confused the Armenians for Persians, the Byzantines purposefully brought numerous aspects of Persian military and dress into their carefully-monitored Roman(ish) culture, and the Assyrians lie on the border of Persia and would find themselves being much more "kind of Persian" due to simply being part of the greater Middle East in dress, cuisine, etc., sharing a closer bond with the Persian or Arabic groups perhaps.

Alans, Georgians and Byzantines were part of the great Byzantosphere. They were part of a big geopolitical and cultural group.
 

Gennadios

Corporal
78 Badges
Jul 21, 2010
48
22
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
Nobody is worried about performance. Stop bringing up performance. And push the map back to Japan.
 

Karlingid

Lt. General
64 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
1.243
958
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Alans, Georgians and Byzantines were part of the great Byzantosphere. They were part of a big geopolitical and cultural group.

The Alans most certainly weren't especially Byzantine in culture- though the Armenians and Georgians are much more easily explained being together (when I said earlier I had meant that Georgians and Armenians shouldn't share a group with each other, not in relation to Byzantium). They certainly had quite a fair bit of interaction with the Byzantines, including a marriage to a woman who was half-Alan, and though they did indeed (partially) Christianize the Alans, I'd not call their own culture too close to that of the Byzantines, nor to their general allegiance at any rate particularly stronger than others.

In fact, as if to show such a divided history, the Alans are in the Byzantine culture group, use Russian graphics, and follow Tengri. I'd say that their largest motivation for being in the Byzantine group is their Orthodox status at later start dates and their position near to the Caucasus while not being Turkic themselves. Their connection to the Byzantosphere is much weaker than that of the Georgians and Armenians, though not as weak as that of the Assyrians. I'd say the Assyrians are easily the most distant for a plethora of reasons.

There is one thing I shall eagerly agree on, though- The Byzantosphere certainly was great.

EDIT: As a side note, I don't have a problem with the Alans being in the Byzantine culture group. I can't really imagine where else to put them, except maybe Iranian, though I think their connection to the medieval Persian world is not strong enough to warrant that and it'd mostly be for graphics.
 
Last edited: