Tanzimat Troubles

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Been trying out the Ottomans and trying to figure out the best way to complete Tanzimat (especially with an eye towards playing them in an MP game). A lot of the advice around seems to be dated or overly general, so any help, builds, tips, strategies or guidance people can provide would be very useful.

To be successful at Tanzimat and not degrade into an unrecognized power that loses all your subjects, you need to complete at least 4 Tanzimat reforms. A lot seem pretty hard with current military and law passing mechanics, which have changed a fair bit from release.

Suppress Separatism seems pretty easy and cultural secessions seem rare.

Education Reform seems really hard. The university buildup is easy enough, but passing school laws requires getting rid of serfdom first, and then you still need to manage to actually increase your literacy by 20%.

Urbanization seems tough, but might be doable. Hard to find the money to finance most construction though and a lot of your states lack urban centers, even areas you'd think might have one, like Baghdad. Is there a reliable way to get them quickly? Plus taking any additional land early (like from Egypt) can make it even harder.

Army Modernization also seems do-able, but takes a lot of focus. You need 3 techs - Napoleonic Warfare, Army Reserves, and General Staff to be able to even create the conditions for being able to succeed with it (and even then it seems tough to get trade routes to satisfy the input good demands for your new army).

Bureaucratic reform seems pretty tough and time-consuming. With your innate bureaucracy penalties and limited construction early on, getting off hereditary bureaucrats is challenging enough. To change your tax system, you need to research currency standards or egalitarianism before you even have access. You also have to get off traditionalism, which in turn means having researched agrarianism.

Conquering Syria is another seemingly hard one. Egypt's army might be smaller than yours, but is better quality and better tech. If you manage to pull in a GP, they will probably just back down, and you don't have nearly enough maneuvers to both sway countries, demand all your claims, and put many demands to primary. If you don't go to war, the length of the truce plus the initial truce you start the game with can leave you pretty pressed for time. Without the Levant, you can't get the follow-up mission for Egypt. Also, this one seems even trickier in an MP game, especially if the Egypt player is prepared to concede diplo plays for truce, knowing you are on a timer.

 

[Gundabadguy]

I haven't played the Ottomans since 1.3 but I've found that once you complete the army reform then you've got a good enough army to fight Egypt and as long as no one will join them then you should be able to defeat them single handedly so you can ensure everything you want is a primary goal.

 

[OnceSetCannotBeChanged]

I believe Education Reform is impossible. I can’t remember seeing anyone report that they were able to do it.

People often report doing Bureaucratic Reform by forcing a revolution. This might not be feasible in a MP game depending on your rules.

Conquering Syria again might not be feasible in a MP game depending on your rules. In Single Player, conquering Syria and then Egypt should be easy enough. The difficulty has changed a good bit from patch to patch, but as of late, I’ve seen even AI able to pull it off.

 

[Froonk]

Education reform is indeed basically impossible, it would maybe be possible if you could pass public schools day one.

Ottomans ahistorically starting with serfdom should really be fixed then it might be feasible.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Actually gave a try at the military first strategy. Rushed the three needed mil techs and got my army upgraded. Started the play for the Levant. No one interfered. Was all looking good. Then ai Egypt backed down and I only got Adana. I realize I could have demanded less total and made more primary, but either way I'm not getting the Levant back in one war, and the time table is pretty tight for a second war.

It seems like limited number of maneuvers makes it impossible to get anything close to what Ottomans got historically (which was Levant, Crete, overlordship of Hejaz, and Egypt back to nominal protectorate status). Even if you know you can win, you either pay the costs to primary demand everything and don't get much total, or you risk the backdown invalidating most of your war goals.

 

[sigismundus]

If you plan for MP then it depends on which countries are AI and which are players.
If you manage to get some strong allies then they can conquer Syria for you without using maneuvers.

 

[fodazd]

The ones I usually do:
-> Suppress Separatism: I agree that this is the easiest one and you get it basically for free.
-> Urbanization: I don't think this one is particularly hard. As soon as you get railways, you want to do this for the sake of de-peasanting your states anyway. I always run maximum taxes plus as many consumption taxes as I can afford, and use that money to pay for construction.
-> Army Modernization: Yes, you will probably need trade routes to import ammunition in the beginning, but this usually isn't a big problem.
-> Reclaim Syria: I usually do this relatively late, when I already have persia and some other countries as a puppet, and maxed out relations with most of the european powers. This *can* fail if Egypt has a strong european ally though, and in this case I am pretty sad. Always make sure that all 6 required States are primary demands. If you don't have the maneuvers for that (for example because you aren't a great power), then don't start the war.

The ones I usually don't go for, or only as a backup:
-> Bureaucratic Reform: This one *is* doable with Exile Dissident shenanigans if you roll a good leader ideology for a landowner character. In my last game, I had a Democrat Leader of the Landowners, so they *supported* switching away from hereditary Bureaucrats. Then you just need to switch away from land-based taxation.
-> Reclaim Egypt: Since I usually start the war for syria relatively late (in the last 5 years), this isn't really possible most of the time.
-> Education Reform: I think there *were* some patches where this was possible, when you just needed to increase your literacy *to* 20% rather than *by* 20%. Right now, you can basically forget about this.

 

[Citizen Caen]

In my 1.6 ottoman games I’ve found The military route to be the easiest. Though depending on who you play with in a multiplayer game that situation may be tough if you’ve got a Russian or an Austrian player intent on your downfall

In single player the four I go with are:
Suppress separatism - this one is basically a freebie
Reform Army - just make sure to research the tech needed, this one is also easy
Conquer Syria - in single player when you start the game first thing you should do is improve relations with all the great powers. After the 5 year truce is up declare war immediately, claim all of Syria, and primary several of the war goals this will ensure Egypt doesn’t backdown. Ottomans can beat Egypt straight up with the army they start with, so long as there is no foreign intervention and you can get it all in one war consistently.
Conquer Egypt - this one unlocks after you take Syria. Wait for the truce to expire then immediately declare war again. Egypt will be much weaker, but I have found that great powers will sometimes intervene in the second war. If they do just get Britain or France to back you, and you’ll be fine.

As others have said: literacy is probably impossible, the land reform one is extremely difficult with the limited time you’d need to fight a revolution to do it. I have trouble with the urbanization one, but I don’t min max the Econ so maybe it is doable?

 

[Bisonmask]

Everything Citizen Caen said is true but the urbanization one is pretty easy, just spread out some of your buildings and you'll hit it with 3ish years to spare

Bureaucratic reform is also doable with luck or by forcing it with revolution and it gives you a ton of money to get the others

I think you could complete land reform by getting lucky with landowner suppression and rolling the event chain not sure what setup let's it fire though

Cycle the landowner leader every five years if they aren't helping you get a revolution or a law passed too

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Gave it another go using some of the advice here. I'd been deleting my navy to save on money, which was putting me down in power rankings and hamstringing my maneuver income. Went with the high taxes strategy instead. Still never had a problem with separatism.

Managed to get military reform-reclaim Syria-suppress Separatism-Urbanization. The urbanization was down to the wire. Bankrupted myself building things and still had to release some periphery territories as vassals, but I did manage to complete it. Taking back the Levant didn't help in this regard. It would have been much easier to just conquer Egypt, but given I'm prepping for an MP game, I figured it was a sensible limitation to stop at Syria. Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[JimmyvL]

I have tried the peaceful route but failed due to either not understanding the criterias or a bug.
The educational reform is possible if the educational access goal being the actual 20%. I achieved it by reducing the land owned by releasing subjects and then use the social mobility decree to increase literacy. But when I have increased it by 20% I have realised that the progress bar suggest it to be more than 20%, around a 32% increase. I do not remeber the exact number but could look it up and edit this post.

Also remebered that the state of Ottomans different depending if I chose the recommended tag from Economic objective, with save file name Turkey as default, or chose Ottomans from select any country, with save file name Ottomans.

 

[Bisonmask]

Gave it another go using some of the advice here. I'd been deleting my navy to save on money, which was putting me down in power rankings and hamstringing my maneuver income. Went with the high taxes strategy instead. Still never had a problem with separatism.

Managed to get military reform-reclaim Syria-suppress Separatism-Urbanization. The urbanization was down to the wire. Bankrupted myself building things and still had to release some periphery territories as vassals, but I did manage to complete it. Taking back the Levant didn't help in this regard. It would have been much easier to just conquer Egypt, but given I'm prepping for an MP game, I figured it was a sensible limitation to stop at Syria. Thanks for the help everyone.

Is it ever good to delete your navy in Vic 3?

Unless you're doing it as handicap the easiest way to beat the AI is naval shenanigans and it's 100% necessary to break the British Empire

Yep I should've mentioned that leaving the conquest as late as possible is important and so is counting every individual urbanization number. It shouldn't bankrupt you though I'll give it a look this weekend

Good luck on your multiplayer game

 

[GreyOgre]

I recently did it for the first time. I went military reforms, both Egyptian JEs, and separatism. I was also on track for urbanization as a backup in case I couldn't finish the conquest part on time.

I just improved relations with the other GPs from day one, and declared wars as the truces ran out. Maybe I was lucky, but no GPs joined and I didn't have to call my ally France. This meant I had the maneuver budget to get all of Syria/Palestine in the first war, all as primary demands. Using Tripoli as an additional staging ground (you might have to reduce autonomy first, I don't remember which level they start at) and a diversionary landing, Egypt is quickly overwhelmed by just the starting army.

I didn't try buerocracy because I'm still bad at manipulating the IGs and liberalizing, especially if I want to keep the monarchy for RP reasons.

 

[Bisonmask]

Is it ever good to delete your navy in Vic 3?

Unless you're doing it as handicap the easiest way to beat the AI is naval shenanigans and it's 100% necessary to break the British Empire

Yep I should've mentioned that leaving the conquest as late as possible is important and so is counting every individual urbanization number. It shouldn't bankrupt you though I'll give it a look this weekend

Good luck on your multiplayer game

(I'm playing OPB's tweaks mod mostly because it makes Britain more aggressive but I'm playing on standard, standard for the difficulty settings)

Tried it this weekend and I think people are overrating how difficult bureaucracy reforms are, and how much you need to depend on randomness if you're also going for urbanization. I did have to restart a couple of times for bad rolls on laws but I managed to enact Professional Army, Legacy Slavery, and Landed Voting on the way there (time will tell if skipping education was a good move) and I failed to enact Interventionism after spending a couple years on it. (You do have to game the movement system and suppression to get it done with any level of regularity though)

I ended up a little early on military reforms and bureaucracy so I didn't end up needing urbanization but I was set to get it done just in time along with conquest of Egypt in case something dropped. I underestimated how much land you have to give away, I ended up puppetting half of my empire and giving extra islands to Cyprus to get close but that land was pretty useless. Main trick is to make sure you always have war reparations coming in from big economies, the EIC was my piggy bank this time but I messed up a war with China that would've made this trivially easy.

Also for urbanization conquest fast would actually help more than it hurts because you can release Syria to get rid of bad land and 2/4 Egypt provinces are already above the threshold and have enough stuff in them to be worth taking

 

[ErringMelkor]

Been trying out the Ottomans and trying to figure out the best way to complete Tanzimat (especially with an eye towards playing them in an MP game). A lot of the advice around seems to be dated or overly general, so any help, builds, tips, strategies or guidance people can provide would be very useful.

To be successful at Tanzimat and not degrade into an unrecognized power that loses all your subjects, you need to complete at least 4 Tanzimat reforms. A lot seem pretty hard with current military and law passing mechanics, which have changed a fair bit from release.

Suppress Separatism seems pretty easy and cultural secessions seem rare.

Education Reform seems really hard. The university buildup is easy enough, but passing school laws requires getting rid of serfdom first, and then you still need to manage to actually increase your literacy by 20%.

Urbanization seems tough, but might be doable. Hard to find the money to finance most construction though and a lot of your states lack urban centers, even areas you'd think might have one, like Baghdad. Is there a reliable way to get them quickly? Plus taking any additional land early (like from Egypt) can make it even harder.

Army Modernization also seems do-able, but takes a lot of focus. You need 3 techs - Napoleonic Warfare, Army Reserves, and General Staff to be able to even create the conditions for being able to succeed with it (and even then it seems tough to get trade routes to satisfy the input good demands for your new army).

Bureaucratic reform seems pretty tough and time-consuming. With your innate bureaucracy penalties and limited construction early on, getting off hereditary bureaucrats is challenging enough. To change your tax system, you need to research currency standards or egalitarianism before you even have access. You also have to get off traditionalism, which in turn means having researched agrarianism.

Conquering Syria is another seemingly hard one. Egypt's army might be smaller than yours, but is better quality and better tech. If you manage to pull in a GP, they will probably just back down, and you don't have nearly enough maneuvers to both sway countries, demand all your claims, and put many demands to primary. If you don't go to war, the length of the truce plus the initial truce you start the game with can leave you pretty pressed for time. Without the Levant, you can't get the follow-up mission for Egypt. Also, this one seems even trickier in an MP game, especially if the Egypt player is prepared to concede diplo plays for truce, knowing you are on a timer.

This is my word of advice. Keep in mind that it's not 100% compatible with MP, as it depends on the rules of the server, the lobby, and general mood of the game.

The gist of my strategy is calculated aggresion against lesser foes (Egypt, Persia, China) while using all of our influence on improving relations with the other Great Powers. France and UK should be easy to sway. Austria and Prusia, neutral. With Russia you wanna anull your rivalry and start improving relations too. Tech-wise, you're gonna aim for: Romanticism -> Egalitarianism -> Army Reserves -> General Staff (and whatever proceeds).

As Ottomans, you're gonna aim at beating China on day 1. Put an interest on USA for trade purposes, and also in Manchuria. When UK starts their diplomatic play, you do the same for Outer Manchuria. You have an excellent fleet at game start, and we shall put it to good use. You have a general with Experienced Offensive Planner + Meticulous, give him the command of your best troops, ratio 50/50 if possible, and, of course, only as much troops as you have fleet capacity for. We won't upgrade any troops yet.

If you're not unlucky, you will have the Qing distracted by the UK, and will be able to get a port in Outer Manchuria + war reps. Once that is done, we have a port in China. I will delve deeper into this later, but it's key you get it. For now, just put in your mind that you will be building a lot of opium. Now you can import grain and export opium. Note: For a more experienced user, I really recommend taking Korea. It's a great subject and will solve many of our pop consumption issues that causes us to have such a low SoL early game. But if you're newer or no so comfident in yourself, it's fine to skip this step.

Now that China is dealt with, you could aim at Persia, which should be an easy conquest if you use that op general of yours. Or just mix all the armies and let it go automatically. Even without upgrading it, it shouldn't be so problematic. If Russia, for some reason, supports Persia, just take the L and step back of the war. With the chinese war reps you won't have any problem.

Your next moves should be reducing autonomy on subjets that will agree to it 100%, typically, that will just be Tunis at game start. Now, next we should be looking at making protectorates out of Jabal Shammar and Nejd. If you have some spare time, you could go for some of the little arabian states at yemen.

Alright, now let's focus on Egypt. Taking it will be easy. We will ask for all our claims + war reps. If you're still a great power, you should be able to ask for hedjaz too, but it isn't the greatest priority right now. Now you upgrade your troops, and we do a split of 50/50 for your attack general, whom we're gonna put on Libia, and the rest, composed of line infantry, on the Levant. Also, keep a small detachment for a naval invasion on the Lower Egypt, should the oportunity arise.

With that done, we're off to a good start. Your next steps should consist of conquering Yemen + Ethiopia, where you should have no opposition whatsoever. It will be important to snatch Zanzibar, too, before they break off.

Now, lets talk about construction. We don't have a lot of construction, and getting construction as the ottomans in really not the best thing, as your provinces have a very uneven production of minerals and wood. Bad for a First Industrialization. So, I propose you ignore it completely. We're gonna aim at Buildings with high Construction Point efficiency. That is, buildings that employ the biggest ammount of people at the lowest cost possible. Profitability be damned! (Not really)

That menas we're gonna build a lot of opium, as much as we can, and export it to China. We're also gonna build some rice farms in Baghdad and Barsa. And then, of course, all the wood possible, but I suggest you wait until you have a company avaible, as to expedite the process, and focus on other buildings first. Once that company is done we should aim at switching for the food company, as to enjoy that extra 5% growth bonus.

Now, law wise, I suggest you aim for landed voting as of day 1. You shouldn't have any problem with it, and it will grant you the most legitimate goverment possible for maximum stability while we conquer people. Then, you're gonna go for legacy slavery, if time allows you. If you don't wanna go for a civil war, then, you're gonna aim for Agrarianism, and then Proportional Taxation. Once we're done with Egypt, though, we should have excellent relations with the other Great Powers, and it should be really easy to farm some defensive pacts or even alliances with them. I don't think giving them an obligation is bad, they won't make a big use out of it.

Now that we have at least 1 great power defending us, we can force the Landowners out of the goverment. It's an easy get out of civil war card. There's a more aggresive strat, doing it at day 1, but I don't suggest you do it if you're not experienced. Now, we will use our great power to defend us against the landowners rebellion. Just enact a law that will anger them, let them crash, and you'll have enough clout to pass all that you need. Remember to change your suffrage laws from landed to census, eventually, so that they don't regain much of their old power.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

I did have to restart a couple of times for bad rolls on laws

Restarts to get better rolls aren’t really an option in MP.

This is my word of advice. Keep in mind that it's not 100% compatible with MP, as it depends on the rules of the server, the lobby, and general mood of the game.

The gist of my strategy is calculated aggresion against lesser foes (Egypt, Persia, China) while using all of our influence on improving relations with the other Great Powers. France and UK should be easy to sway. Austria and Prusia, neutral. With Russia you wanna anull your rivalry and start improving relations too. Tech-wise, you're gonna aim for: Romanticism -> Egalitarianism -> Army Reserves -> General Staff (and whatever proceeds).

As Ottomans, you're gonna aim at beating China on day 1. Put an interest on USA for trade purposes, and also in Manchuria. When UK starts their diplomatic play, you do the same for Outer Manchuria. You have an excellent fleet at game start, and we shall put it to good use. You have a general with Experienced Offensive Planner + Meticulous, give him the command of your best troops, ratio 50/50 if possible, and, of course, only as much troops as you have fleet capacity for. We won't upgrade any troops yet.

If you're not unlucky, you will have the Qing distracted by the UK, and will be able to get a port in Outer Manchuria + war reps. Once that is done, we have a port in China. I will delve deeper into this later, but it's key you get it. For now, just put in your mind that you will be building a lot of opium. Now you can import grain and export opium. Note: For a more experienced user, I really recommend taking Korea. It's a great subject and will solve many of our pop consumption issues that causes us to have such a low SoL early game. But if you're newer or no so comfident in yourself, it's fine to skip this step.

Now that China is dealt with, you could aim at Persia, which should be an easy conquest if you use that op general of yours. Or just mix all the armies and let it go automatically. Even without upgrading it, it shouldn't be so problematic. If Russia, for some reason, supports Persia, just take the L and step back of the war. With the chinese war reps you won't have any problem.

Your next moves should be reducing autonomy on subjets that will agree to it 100%, typically, that will just be Tunis at game start. Now, next we should be looking at making protectorates out of Jabal Shammar and Nejd. If you have some spare time, you could go for some of the little arabian states at yemen.

Alright, now let's focus on Egypt. Taking it will be easy. We will ask for all our claims + war reps. If you're still a great power, you should be able to ask for hedjaz too, but it isn't the greatest priority right now. Now you upgrade your troops, and we do a split of 50/50 for your attack general, whom we're gonna put on Libia, and the rest, composed of line infantry, on the Levant. Also, keep a small detachment for a naval invasion on the Lower Egypt, should the oportunity arise.

With that done, we're off to a good start. Your next steps should consist of conquering Yemen + Ethiopia, where you should have no opposition whatsoever. It will be important to snatch Zanzibar, too, before they break off.

Now, lets talk about construction. We don't have a lot of construction, and getting construction as the ottomans in really not the best thing, as your provinces have a very uneven production of minerals and wood. Bad for a First Industrialization. So, I propose you ignore it completely. We're gonna aim at Buildings with high Construction Point efficiency. That is, buildings that employ the biggest ammount of people at the lowest cost possible. Profitability be damned! (Not really)

That menas we're gonna build a lot of opium, as much as we can, and export it to China. We're also gonna build some rice farms in Baghdad and Barsa. And then, of course, all the wood possible, but I suggest you wait until you have a company avaible, as to expedite the process, and focus on other buildings first. Once that company is done we should aim at switching for the food company, as to enjoy that extra 5% growth bonus.

Now, law wise, I suggest you aim for landed voting as of day 1. You shouldn't have any problem with it, and it will grant you the most legitimate goverment possible for maximum stability while we conquer people. Then, you're gonna go for legacy slavery, if time allows you. If you don't wanna go for a civil war, then, you're gonna aim for Agrarianism, and then Proportional Taxation. Once we're done with Egypt, though, we should have excellent relations with the other Great Powers, and it should be really easy to farm some defensive pacts or even alliances with them. I don't think giving them an obligation is bad, they won't make a big use out of it.

Now that we have at least 1 great power defending us, we can force the Landowners out of the goverment. It's an easy get out of civil war card. There's a more aggresive strat, doing it at day 1, but I don't suggest you do it if you're not experienced. Now, we will use our great power to defend us against the landowners rebellion. Just enact a law that will anger them, let them crash, and you'll have enough clout to pass all that you need. Remember to change your suffrage laws from landed to census, eventually, so that they don't regain much of their old power.

The China opening is an interesting one. I’m surprised the starting Ottoman army would be good enough to naval invade them, but I’ll have to test it out. Though I would be concerned about getting attacked from behind while my troops are halfway around the world. Any interventions in Arabia would likewise risk an early player war with Egypt and Persia before the army is ready.

 

[Bisonmask]

Restarts to get better rolls aren’t really an option in MP.

Oops forgot about that

I think you can still get there while cutting out the fat and urbanization is obviously still possible (delays industrialization for mp so that might be bad) but the additional countries each add a little bit of military strength and construction

Idk what competitive lobbies look like but I feel like I'd never pick Ottomans if I had any comparable options, even Egypt might be better if you can manage diplomacy

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Oops forgot about that

I think you can still get there while cutting out the fat and urbanization is obviously still possible (delays industrialization for mp so that might be bad) but the additional countries each add a little bit of military strength and construction

Idk what competitive lobbies look like but I feel like I'd never pick Ottomans if I had any comparable options, even Egypt might be better if you can manage diplomacy

It’s not a competitive lobby by any means. Lots of different skill levels and some RP.

Honestly no idea how you managed war reps from East India Company.

Ottomans was the last unfilled major when I signed up. Only a while later did Egypt and Persia players sign up, changing a lot of my initial fundamental calculus. Just trying to deal with the situation I now find myself presented with.

 

[Bisonmask]

It’s not a competitive lobby by any means. Lots of different skill levels and some RP.

Ah that makes sense I'd just make sure nobody popular gets Egypt and nobody that hates you gets France or Britain

Honestly no idea how you managed war reps from East India Company.

Borderline exploit the better strategy is to go with China. The British, especially after the addition of reverse sways, will often join a war against the EIC to get some puppet or province. Sadly you can't use that war to free the EIC but there's also the old reliable of waiting to join against the EIC on the last week of a solo EIC play.

Ottomans was the last unfilled major when I signed up. Only a while later did Egypt and Persia players sign up, changing a lot of my initial fundamental calculus. Just trying to deal with the situation I now find myself presented with.

Ah yeah in that situation I'd personally pick a South American country and sim city or pick Egypt and play like single player bc you have to be a diplomacy god to survive and make tanzimat.

Please post about your game on the AAR forum I'd love to see what happens.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Yeah, it is shaping up to be an interesting game. A lot of how things go will likely depend on a delicate diplomatic dance.

Tested it and learned that the mod the server uses apparently changes things to require colonial affairs unlocked to declare war for a treaty port, so, at least for short term, the Turkish opium to China plan would need to be put on hold.