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Biceps said:
Well, dear Peter, I find changes applied by you a complete disaster.
That's a crying shame. Changes are primarily based on suggestions brought forth by players in the previous release threads and other threads discussing scenario set-up. If you want changes to be made, that is where you should make your stand.

Like your post here, for instance :)

First of all, I'd like to hear an answer for one question.
Are your changes going to increase historical accuracy of game, or you just want to unify all nations?
Neither nor, not either or, in fact.

  1. All changes do no necessarily improve the historical accuracy: historical accuracy, while important, is not the prime determinant in this mod
  2. I do not necessarily want to unify all nations
I know that many people disagree with 1. That is quite fine with me, they can edit the things the way they like it in their own mods, and they can use this as a base if they wish or not, if they do not.

I was a great fan of your first scenario (v1.1.0),
First??? That was the tenth release, and if you think things are bad now, you should try some of the earliest releases :D

but I can't look at the newest patch. It is completly unnatural and tendentious. They lead to nothing more than total unification, where everyone is equal, despite historical nuances.
Is this statement concerning 1.1.1 backed up by gameplay experience or is it a projection? If the latter, it conflicts with my own projections in no small degree and will have to await empirical analysis based on gameplay. If the former, please explain.

For example? Venice is small and quite weak. So, why should Venice player worry about good diplomacy, strong trade economy etc.? Just give Venteo huge fortress, huge manpower and huge treasury.
I suggest you read the 1520 experiences thread in the MP forum to see why the description of Venice as small and weak was, in fact, a complete misnomer - and something to be corrected. Venice did not get boosted out of pity, but because several players presented credible explanations for why Venice was inaccurately depicted in the old setup.

England is weaker than France (of course in terms for manpower etc.), and why should it be? Let's just give them bigger MP and everything will be settled.
No, let us give them bigger manpower (though still less than France, of course), not because they are weaker than France, but because they seem in MP to generally fight less than desired, often due to a lack of manpower imposed by the severe naval/quality 40-50% hit as opposed to the land/quantity 40%-50% boost so common on the mainland, and see if it leads to more British involvement in Europe in MP. If it proves too much in actual play (e.g. English armies dominating Europe or just France or England typically choosing to become land/quantity rather than naval/quality), reduce it in a future release. If it does its job, keep it as is. The only way to find out is to try it out in MP play.


You just take back the problem of holding balance from players, and give it to pre-set scenario conditions.
Strongly disagree. Once the shit hits the fan and players start backstabbing, the BoP is determined by the best diplomat or the least discredited :)D), as usual, not the start-up settings.

Going further, I find some other of your changes completly biased and disrespectful for history.
Of course I am biased. Everybody is. And not only that, I am arrogant to boot. If I like a proposed change, the standard of evidence is lower than if I dislike it. The title of the project, "Peter's Age of Explorations" should give you the hint.

Disrespectful of history, though, is harder to evaluate.

I have some experiences with editing scenarios (for my own purposes, using of course your 1.1.0 as a base) and I have never thought, that "giving of the bat" such huge changes can go so easy. You neglect those, who you don't like.
I neglect those whom people do not make suggestions for editing in my release threads. If, for instance, nobody suggests edits for Spain and I do not think of any either, then none are made. Simple as that. Changes and suggestions mainly come as a result of bitching, moaning, and the occasionally enlightened post concerning gameplay in the last release.

What was foundation of increasing Denmark MP?
Read the 1520 MP experiences thread dangling around somewhere in the MP forum.

Giving Russia mongol and ruthenian culture is even bigger mistake and I can't understand those of you, who agree.
Read the 1520 MP experiences thread dangling around somewhere in the MP forum.

Still, in my opinion you've made a fantastic job Peter. I admire your 1520 scenario. But you've totally surprised me. I expected completly different changes and I was afraid of giving you my own ideas and suggestions, as I found them not fully professional (I'm not a Doctor of History :)). And now I see your own changes, in my perception, totally amateur. Maybe you
can give some historical basis for them? I don't know everything, so there is a lot points where you can convince me.
If you want and/or expect particular changes made, POST THEM IN THE RELEASE THREADS. Despite my many sterling qualities, I am not a mind reader.

If you dislike a suggestion in the release thread, say so (and feel free to disprove points). If you support a suggestion, and few others have chimed in, then chime in to increase the odds of it being considered for inclusion.

As for MY qualifications, I am not now, nor have I ever been, an historian. Rather, I have one main purpose (other than self-gratification, that is) with this mod...

Or you just wanted to make this scenario more playable in Multiplayer...
Got it in one. It is primarily an MP mod. hence the 24 players. That has never been a secret. :)


-----

To clarify some of my earlier points, there are several approaches to scenario design, of which I will present two. One is to perform only well-researched, well-documented, and preferably minor changes, which creates a sequence of gradually changing scenario versions that approach some distant goal somewhere in the distant future, but where new releases seldom rock the boat. Tweak, tweak, tweak.

I find that approach ultimately boring and time consuming, and, given the length of MP games, have no intention of following it, and never had. I am neither going to spend scores of hours of my spare time on research or testing for a release, nor am I going to spend the time on a full scale team approach, with all the administration that entails, that is - usually - the only viable alternative.

Another approach is to perform larger, somewhat arbitrary, and less well-documented changes, based on data available and projections as to the likely outcome of changes. In this case it creates a sequence of greatly different scenario versions, where each release attempts to maintain the best of the previous edits and throws in some new ones for evaluation through play.

Given that I find such thought experiments interesting, and have not proven completely incompetent in making projections, and that, furthermore, it is something that I can do within the time I have available, that is of course the way I have chosen to manage this scenario. Basically, I throw in massive changes from release to release and watch the shit hit the fan. The things that stick are are maintained, the things that do not, do not. Ahhhh - mixed metaphors :D

That, of course, means that every release is likely to contain (for every player) at least something that is objectionable. That is why I monitor the level and magnitude of bitching concerning individual changes. :)
 
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Let it be, the master will spare your life, so you can prepare another patches. :rolleyes:

[Damn you Peter, you’ve disarmed me. There’s no shit I can add :D Everything is a matter of attitude, and with it, I cannot discuss. And in fact, I understand yours]
 
Hi :D

Trin Tragula said:
If it's just the ukraine neither should have it. That area was notorious for it's many revolts... There was a revolt atleast once every other year. Every tenth year or so they'd ignite to real big rebelions. This happened to both Poland and Russia.
Well, even considering its an exxageration, its not true. Not even once a decade ;)

Anyway, about that Mughals-if you find them too rich, and still want to raise tax value of their provinces, there is a way. Specifically, by giving, oh damn. They are sunnis, i though they are Hindus for a moment. Well, you can always change them to Hindu and give Hindus huge tax and effiecency (trade and prod) penalties. :D

Well, given the fact both China and India had both 60% of world GDP prior to 1800 with Europe another 30%, means they should have tax values 60-90 or something :D. Which is doable with China (just give Confucian tax penalty of -70 or something). Same should be with India, but there is a problem with them beign Sunnis ( still provinces in India, when some has as much as wealthy population as whole Iberia, ie, tax vale over 100, while in game they have tax value 10-20 is quite, well, strange.



Ah, another thing. Given that games usually end with two billion troops, why better starting position of countries? Why not curb everyone instead?

Last word. From the beginning of time (well, actually from MGC 3 and the appearance of Damocles :D) there were assumptions made on certain games. Its ok, and MP was made much better by it. But they are usually missed when made about starting positions. The most important factor is the player himself, or rather his play and policy. That i say because Damocles said that,

If anything, Poland's tech should've remained at 3/3 and Russia should've been dropped to around 1/2.

You seem to overlook the fact that Russia is a strong country with massive potential whereas Poland is in 95% of the games, everyone's bitch and is completely unable to defend themselves against North, East, South or West. Comparisons of the two are evil.

The only reason why Poland and Russia in Mach II were so equal was because my Poland got funded more then any other country in the history of MP gaming, which it used to build factories and establish the fourth strongest trading position in the game and you played a terrible economic game by racking up inflation and ignoring trade.

You seem to have made your modifications to this scenario based around your experiences in Mach II which is clearly the wrong way to go about it. For one thing, you weren't powergaming your Russia. You've just created a monster, Peter.

and i think its important. Although i don't mean that particular case.

Although, Peter, the reason Muscovy and Commonwealth fielded so differently sized armies had nothing to do with manpower (ie: as game treats it, population), which was about equal 8-10 millions, but warfare policy and style (well, quality 10 vs quality 0 or something). Thats in 1492, in 1600s the population difference was already there.

About owning the provinces-since 1656, Russia owned eastern part of Ukraine. Ruthenian in game IIRC. Well, from historical perspective, i think both should have it (i mean Poland, too). I know nothing about game balance now, btw :D
 
Maur has a point, I am getting the feeling that some russian and polish changes are made because Damo and Peter brought both nations to powergamed super efficiency..;)
 
BOOOM!
 
Biceps said:
Let it be, the master will spare your life, so you can prepare another patches. :rolleyes:
Another release, not patch. :D

[Damn you Peter, you’ve disarmed me. There’s no shit I can add :D Everything is a matter of attitude, and with it, I cannot discuss. And in fact, I understand yours]
You can always add suggestions for changes. :)
 
Peter Ebbesen said:
Another release, not patch. :D


You can always add suggestions for changes. :)

Can you give us a list of definite changes you've decided on for the next release. Dropping Venice's warships and transports to below their support limit would probably be a good idea as well. Their support limit is only *83*.
 
Damocles said:
Can you give us a list of definite changes you've decided on for the next release.
No. That would set a bad precedent. ;)

I can, however, give you the Quickbitch release: 1.1.1a, link in my .sig

From the release notes:
Release 1.1.1a Released January 18th, 2004
------------------------------------------------------------
The Quickbitch release. Minor changes only.

1492:

Russia
* Loses Ruthenian culture again due to bitching. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Scotland
* Scottish base manpower down to 14 from 18

Venice:
* Fleet set to 20/80/0


1520:

Russia
* Loses Ruthenian culture again due to bitching. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Scotland
* Scottish base manpower down to 14 from 18

Venice
* Fleet set to 20/80/0
Venice's support limit is 85 after 1 month. If people want to have their fleet at the support limit, feel free to disband 15 galleys. Me, I'd rather keep them around at 50% efficiency gambling on having use for them sometime within the decade or of increasing the support limit by increasing income or the acquisition of a few extra ports. Mantua, thy port is fair to behold.

Depends on players and plans, I guess.
 
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Peter Ebbesen said:
No. That would set a bad precedent. ;)

I can, however, give you the Quickbitch release: 1.1.1a, link in my .sig

From the release notes:

Venice's support limit is 85 after 1 month. If people want to have their fleet at the support limit, feel free to disband 15 galleys. Me, I'd rather keep them around at 50% efficiency gambling on having use for them sometime within the decade or of increasing the support limit by increasing income or the acquisition of a few extra ports. Mantua, thy port is fair to behold.

Depends on players and plans, I guess.

Hrm. I don't believe Mantua actually has a port.
 
Damocles said:
Hrm. I don't believe Mantua actually has a port.
Then you will just have to BUILD ONE WITH YOUR BARE HANDS, slacker. :D
 
What are the chances with your next release that we get a 1520 scenario with Holland already formed. I know Fate had an option for this in his 1520 scenario that he made a while back. In many MP games, Holland is a very sought after country to play, but with its formation often in doubt, I think it may be beneficial to have Holland formed in 1520. It should contain Holland, Zeeland, Gelre, and Friesen. It could even be vassalized to the Spanish and the Netherlands revolt events could be slept.

I know that a 1520 Holland is ahistorical, but since the scenario is geared towards MP, and Holland has potntial to be a majot player in MP games, I think this mught be somthing to look at.
 
Actually, the County of Holland was quite independent long before 1520, and was actively engaged in exploration, colonization, trading and diplomacy before the civil war ever began. I think that meets the requirements of being able to start in 1520, as long as it is a Spanish vassal, catholic religion, and forced to tow the line until the general estates events.
 
Hmm, sounds like a plan, who knows...
 
In the latest release the Danish province Narvik has 900 inhabitants, 500 natives and Ugric culture. As soon as the game starts the natives will join the province making the population set to 1400 and with ugric culture. There is nothing that can be done. Is this WaD? Wouldn't it be better to have population 800 as in Finnmark, to give the Danish player a chance?
Actually, with both Finnmark and Narvik Ugric from start they seem "destined" to be Swedish. I actually think the ones that payed taxes and inhabitated the coastal villages were Norwegian, and both provinces should start as Scandinavian.
 
Damocles said:
Actually, the County of Holland was quite independent long before 1520, and was actively engaged in exploration, colonization, trading and diplomacy before the civil war ever began. I think that meets the requirements of being able to start in 1520, as long as it is a Spanish vassal, catholic religion, and forced to tow the line until the general estates events.

It should at most be a 1 province minor in Holland then, though.
 
Norrefeldt said:
In the latest release the Danish province Narvik has 900 inhabitants, 500 natives and Ugric culture. As soon as the game starts the natives will join the province making the population set to 1400 and with ugric culture. There is nothing that can be done. Is this WaD?
Quaint.

I wonder when that happened - it certainly is not WAD. Did the base culture in Narvik change in a recent beta patch - or did I bump the colony size? Who cares, it will be fixed in the next release. :D

Wouldn't it be better to have population 800 as in Finnmark, to give the Danish player a chance?
Yes, and change both Finnmark and Narvik to Scandinavian as you suggest.
 
IF Holland is set free early.. they would need some explorer(s) earlier on I think to compensate for the knowledge they would be getting from being set free with (Spanish) maps..
 
ForzaA said:
IF Holland is set free early.. they would need some explorer(s) earlier on I think to compensate for the knowledge they would be getting from being set free with (Spanish) maps..


Almost all of their overseas trading during the 16th century was done in the Baltic Sea, where the grain trade was considered 'The Mother of All Trade'.

Though, Dutch merchants did get as far as China and Japan, a little while after the Portugese.