Early Mech rush feasible?

[JoeRambo]

Great example of how good AI would be if PI fine tuned it... On my wish list for invasion AI:

1) Fix the stupid "AI will ignore a port if several militia are in"
2) Increase randomness of efforts, coastline is from Norway to Spain after all
3) Stopping to reinforce the failure - when invasion goes sour, evacuate the troops.
4) AI should have a clue about stacking limits as well - no point in keeping zounds of divisions in surrounded place or even reinforcing failure - evacuation should happen, AI that leaves a rear guard and drops the rest of troops in a place 1k km away would be amazing.
5) Overall strategic invasion engine - something like certain territories divided by zones, and if forces in that zone are weak ( <-- i don't mind if AI cheats and peaks into OOB or whatever without intel here ) - zone is added to potential list and AI should work towards ratio of required troops and make invasion.
6) Ninja invasions/raids, on the style of Dieppe, but with 5-10x the forces, if AI is told about (3) and was aware about limited goals, it could make some seriuos damage.

 

[Secret Master]

... brought in the steel tidal wave of Mechs.

An example of what the British troops saw before they commenced Operation Fill-Our-Knickers-In-Terror.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

The wiki says that CAV generates the least practical per IC and MOT generates the most practical per IC (MECH is in between). The differences are significant: CAV costs 10% more IC days per practical. But since it builds faster, you can get those practicals faster and put them to good use. I really do not have sufficient math skills to determine whether the faster implementation of practicals helps enough to offset the worse practicals generation. This also assume the wiki's calculations are correct. The article is labeled timeless, but I suspect that is not the case.

You also should probably be upgrading those existing CAV ASAP to something else, just to get the practicals going. If you do it early, though, you end up paying more IC in upgrade costs.

This a theory but the practice is different.

Initial Germany 1936 set up

1 MOT brigade 141 D x 4.57 IC = 644.37 ICD
1 CAV brigade 136 D x 2.08 IC = 282.88 ICD

CAV would be built just 5 days faster!

1 MOT 0.6 Pract. 644.37 ICD / 0.6 P = 1073.95 ICD/P
1 CAV 0.2 Pract. 282.88 ICD / 0.2 P = 1414.40 ICD/P

CAV practical is 32% more expensive!

 

[unmerged(47028)]

I just checked. Higher Mobile Practical higher comparative cost of CAV Practical compared to MOT.

With 0 Practical - 27%, with 5 Practical - 32%, with 20 Practical - 35% and with 50 Practical - 40%.

IMHO different units are affected differently by Practicals.

 

[blue emu]

... and again, this time 14 Divisions landing at Bordeaux.

Those British are really determined to have their holidays on the Biscay coast.

 

[Secret Master]

Do you happen to have Normandy garrisoned? Is that why they keep invading there.

 

[blue emu]

Do you happen to have Normandy garrisoned? Is that why they keep invading there.

I've got at least one GARx2/ARTx2 and one MILx2 in every port from Memel to Lorient... some of them have an Infantry or Mech Division in addition, since I've only deployed limited forces to the Yugoslav border (four INF Corps and one Mech Corps, to stay within the limits of a single Army HQ).

... so yes, the Biscay area is the the weakest part of my defenses, until the last of my Garrisons and Militia are finished building.

Those Mechs are too fast. France fell before I was ready to occupy it.

Which illustrates one benefit of this build... it requires a big Leadership investment, but returns some of it in the form of early conquests, which give me early occupied Manpower and Leadership.

My monthly Manpower gain is already approaching 34, in late 1939.

 

[Secret Master]

Yeah, speed can be painful. The times I've really invested in MECH/TD forces, I've always been impressed with what can be achieved.

Well, except that one time I put 30 MECH/TD divisions in Poland to protect them from the Soviets. But that was because those divisions remained at -30% because of supply problems thanks to lousy Polish techs and infrastructure. But that was a really special case.

France made good use of them at certain points against the Germans, but the small length of the front meant that there was a lot less room to maneuver (but when I could, boy could I get some encirclements done).

[Mental Note: Next time I try to be nice as Germany and defend Poland from the Soviets, let them go GiE so that I can reoccupy Poland and supply it with German logistical techs and build some infra in key places...]

 

[tommylotto]

I just checked. Higher Mobile Practical higher comparative cost of CAV Practical compared to MOT.

With 0 Practical - 27%, with 5 Practical - 32%, with 20 Practical - 35% and with 50 Practical - 40%.

IMHO different units are affected differently by Practicals.

It is my understanding that at some point you get diminishing returns with increased practicals. Looking at blue emu's army, he needed to build either 70 MOT or 70 CAV to be upgraded to his MECH army. The MOT build would give him approximately 42 practical, whereas the CAV build would only generate 14 practical. 42 is definitely in the realm of diminishing returns, and 14 already gives you significant savings. It seems to me that since the CAV will never see combat until they are mechanized, the extra 2.49 IC per brigade available while building out this army would come in handy building interceptors, or the TD, or maybe the garrison units that he was missing upon the fall of France.

Upgrading will be more expensive (less practical and higher upgrade cost) once the MECH tech becomes available. So, it might slow down the roll out of the MECH army. How much, I'm not sure. I guess you would need to test both methods to see which works better.

 

[tommylotto]

I've played about 17 months of the second test game, and it looks like the Mech tech will be done around mid-to-late August 1938. That's a major improvement over January 10th 1939, which was the date that I popped it in my first test game.

I should have at least 35-40 Motorized Divisions ready to be upgraded to Mech as soon as the tech is done.

Naturally, I haven't been neglecting the rest of the Germany forces... I will have the usual number of Interceptors ready for the start of the war, plus a modest Transport fleet, a small but adequate Infantry force, enough Garrisons and Militia to guard all of my home ports plus the captured ports in Poland, Holland, Belgium, France, etc.

EDIT:

Looks like I should have about six dozen Mech Regiments (two per Division) ready by "Danzig or War", if I can get them all upgraded in ten months or so.

I tried a Mech rush using CAV as my based unit. The lower practicals did have an effect as it slowed research of the Mech Infantry Tech. I couldn't get it researched until September 24, 1938. However, the lower cost of the base unit allowed me to build other things. I built 50x(2xCAV+2xTD) by 12/18/37. Then I was free to build out my infantry army, air force, and transports until the Mech tech was researched. I had garrisons in all ports and infantry up and down both borders. I built INT, TAC, even some NAV. Meanwhile, I also built some AC to accompany the legacy light armor to make an exploit corps -- and to keep my mobile unit practical moving in the right direction.

Once I started upgrading the CAV in September of 1938 it cost 7.42 per brigade and would take until January 18, 1939. I imagine that would be more expensive than upgrading the MOT. However, I had the IC for about 18.5 brigades and they were done by January of 1939. Those upgrades made my mobile unit practical shoot up to 21.8 and I had time for two more waves of upgrades. By August 27, 1939, just before kickoff, I had 30 full Mech divisions (2xMECH+2xTD) fitted out, with 20 more division waiting in the wings to trade their horses for halftracks. All 50 divisions would probably be ready in time for France.

So, you can still build a sizable Mech army (actually larger) by the time of Danzig or War, plus have nine months to basically build whatever you want to fill out the rest of your army/navy/air force.

NOTE: My infantry was behind on equipment upgrades, but when the CAV is upgraded to Mech they get all the latest technology. So, they are not only up to date but cutting edge.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

Is there any value to a MEC-MEC-TD-SPART build or is the double TD support configuration clearly superior?

 

[blue emu]

Is there any value to a MEC-MEC-TD-SPART build or is the double TD support configuration clearly superior?

Depends.

In deciding on support regiments for the Mech, I was aiming for two things: I wanted to gain the Combined Arms bonus right from the start, and I wanted to also gain the Hard-on-Soft ORG-damage bonus as soon as possible.

MECx2/TDx2 gains the CA bonus immediately, and with an initial Softness of 51 in 1938, it will gain the Hard-on-Soft bonus within one or two upgrade steps... you need a Softness of 50 or lower to gain that benefit, and the Softness of Mech drops by one point with each Light Tank Armor upgrade.

My "Heavy Mech" Divisions are LArm-MEC-TD-SPArt, which is hard enough to gain the HoS bonus immediately.

 

[tommylotto]

Is there any value to a MEC-MEC-TD-SPART build or is the double TD support configuration clearly superior?

Your build will qualify for the combined arms bonus and have much better soft attack but less hard attack. Since most opponents you run into will be soft, even most armor will be softer than hard), your build is certainly "better" against most opponents you will face. However, blue's build is defensively a harder target and more immune to attacks. It is also better against those rare hard units, plus against the soft units it will get that the Hard-on-Soft ORG-damage bonus. There are a lot of moving parts there. Both are very good units.

Never mind that...

Who is going to explain THIS to the Fuhrer??!!!:rofl:

 

[Secret Master]

MECx2/TDx2 gains the CA bonus immediately, and with an initial Softness of 51 in 1938, it will gain the Hard-on-Soft bonus within one or two upgrade steps... you need a Softness of 50 or lower to gain that benefit, and the Softness of Mech drops by one point with each Light Tank Armor upgrade.

This, combined with the CA bonus and the speed, is where you make your money. But, I have to ask, at what point could practically start getting Hard on Soft in the field? By Barbarossa? By late 1940 for an early Barbarossa?

 

[blue emu]

This, combined with the CA bonus and the speed, is where you make your money. But, I have to ask, at what point could practically start getting Hard on Soft in the field? By Barbarossa? By late 1940 for an early Barbarossa?

I'm pretty sure that the 1942 Light Tank Armor tech will give me that bonus. It's only a single, difficulty-1 tech... so it can be rushed at least a couple of years ahead. Certainly for Barbarossa, and quite possibly for a summer 1940 Barbarossa.

We'll have to see if I'm right about the 1942 date.

 

[Laurwin]

Es ist kein Mensch, es ist kein Tier, sondern ein Panzergrenadier!

A TOAST TO THE GLORIOUS FELLOW PANZERGRENADIERS, The Fastests Animals Of The Forest.

Don't be a wuss and just build 2xLARM+2xSPART (or maybe even 2xLARM+1xAC or something)

 

[blue emu]

It should be noted that many AI Armor builds are softer than 50%... so this build might even get the Hard-on-Soft bonus against Armor. Not bad for an Infantry unit.

Faster than a speeding bullet... more powerful than a locomotive... harder than a Tank... it's... super-Mech!

 

[nimrod123]

It should be noted that many AI Armor builds are softer than 50%... so this build might even get the Hard-on-Soft bonus against Armor. Not bad for an Infantry unit.

Faster than a speeding bullet... more powerful than a locomotive... harder than a Tank... it's... super-Mech!

yeah but late game mech normally are better then armor (apart from hard attack and sometimes DEF), you just need leadership and IC

 

[wukk]

Did you upgrade Infrastructure, rush the supply techs, use Logistics Wizards at all HQ levels, use Skill-5 Army Group commanders, and use the Supply-draw reduction Minister?

Sorry for taking so long to answer, I've been away from my computer.

None of that matters in this case, I was comparing only to MY earlier games with similar infrastructure and army/commander structure. I didn't find the Mech army any better compared by my non Mech army. Initial success was better, the end result wasn't.

 

[blue emu]

Sorry for taking so long to answer, I've been away from my computer.

None of that matters in this case, I was comparing only to MY earlier games with similar infrastructure and army/commander structure. I didn't find the Mech army any better compared by my non Mech army. Initial success was better, the end result wasn't.

It's certainly true that a Mechanized Army has a far higher supply draw than an Infantry Army, and that the logistics factor goes a long way towards balancing out the greater mobility and higher combat power of the Mechs. I'm not convinced, though, that the two factors will exactly balance, since a Mechanized Army will also gain far more benefit from a logistical focus than the Infantry Army will. If the proper measures are taken in good time (before the systematic problems actually reveal themselves on the map), I would expect the Mech's ability to concentrate power-at-a-point to offer a signifigant advantage.

Overall, though, I don't expect this build-schema to be much stronger or much weaker than a balanced build... or for that matter, than a pure Infantry build. I just expect it to be fully playable.