When will goods substitution be fixed?

[myrogia]

Arguing that homes with wood stoves would require significant changes to heat with, say, electricity, isn't some kind of elaborate fan fiction. It's literally an example that applies even today, especially in rental properties where tenants are not allowed to make radical changes to the property.

I don't actually think this mechanic is trying to accomplish this with its effects, but pretending that "Homes may not have access to all possible heating methods without substantial renovation" is the same as "Picard and Counselor Troi Go Out on a Date During Shore Leave Between Seasons 1 and 2 of Star Trek: The Next Generation" is nonsensical.

The current state does a decent job at representing the real costs of switching substitutes in some cases. A home designed to burn wood for heat probably doesn't have the correct stuff for using oil instead.

He's not arguing for the implementation of a conversion cost / consumer preference mechanic in future. His argument is that the current state of the game is, at this very moment, a good implementation of such a mechanic. Even though there's no indication from anything in the game or in dev diaries that this is intended design. Even though, if this were intended design, a permanent "pops spend 2x as much on one good instead of just buying its substitute good" would probably be a terrible way to implement a conversion/consumer behavior change mechanic.

This is analogous to someone posting a clearly sourced game-crashing bug, and someone popping up to say "well actually this is just a way to represent moments of mass hysteria in history giving your national wizard spirit a seizure, represented as a game crash. Bravo, Paradox. Truly, one of the simulations of all time". In spite of the fact that there's quite literally zero evidence to support this idea in or outside of game. In spite of the fact that this would be a terrible way to implement such a mechanic even if it were intended.

You know what he wrote. I know what he wrote. Hopefully, you and I know what I wrote. All ideas were communicated in plain English. Apparently, he was defending the future implementation of such a mechanic. Apparently, I'm against the idea of a consumer preference mechanic, because that idea was very clearly communicated in my post. That is definitely what was written.

 

[mursolini]

Arguing that homes with wood stoves would require significant changes to heat with, say, electricity, isn't some kind of elaborate fan fiction. It's literally an example that applies even today, especially in rental properties where tenants are not allowed to make radical changes to the property.

Does this example even apply to V3 era? Whom was using electricity for heating back then? Oil, I`m also not aware of being used as a source of heating back in V3 era, it was just too expensive.
Will we also use the fact that it is much easier to switch between coal and wood is trivial for simple heating system like hearthstone, but harder if we use more elaborate boilers and water radiators?

 

[Aliquam]

I love how this thread went to absurd level of minutaie, instead of focusing on simple: "is this oversight or deliberate design"

 

[yurcick]

I love how this thread went to absurd level of minutaie, instead of focusing on simple: "is this oversight or deliberate design"

Well, the lack of an answer from the devs doesn't help.

Also, I honestly believe that valid further system improvements are suggested, but this is anyway for the devs to judge and comment.
So far we're in a limbo: we basically understand everything and can shout into the abyss, but have no means to know that we're even heard.

 

[Nephandus]

Does this example even apply to V3 era? Whom was using electricity for heating back then? Oil, I`m also not aware of being used as a source of heating back in V3 era, it was just too expensive.
Will we also use the fact that it is much easier to switch between coal and wood is trivial for simple heating system like hearthstone, but harder if we use more elaborate boilers and water radiators?

The first electrical heaters were invented by the 1890s and found widespread use in the 1910s onward. The first oil burners using crude oil or kerosene was invented in the 1840s while todays oil heaters (technically Diesel heaters) came up in the 1920s. Even gas heaters were available. All within the scope of the game.

 

[shoebird]

I love how this thread went to absurd level of minutaie, instead of focusing on simple: "is this oversight or deliberate design"

According to this from DD13, I would say that this is how it has been designed.

 

[Secret Master]

Whom was using electricity for heating back then?

You should know be better by now. I picked that example deliberately.

And in case it's not clear:

So, even if Vic3 is really Stellaris in disguise, my example makes perfect sense. Electricity is used for heating in the game. I doubt people are swapping from electric heat to coal burning furnaces on a weekly basis.

This is analogous to someone posting a clearly sourced game-crashing bug, and someone popping up to say "well actually this is just a way to represent moments of mass hysteria in history giving your national wizard spirit a seizure, represented as a game crash. Bravo, Paradox. Truly, one of the simulations of all time". In spite of the fact that there's quite literally zero evidence to support this idea in or outside of game. In spite of the fact that this would be a terrible way to implement such a mechanic even if it were intended.

Calling it fan fiction instead of just saying "Even if that historical situation is true, that's not what the mechanic is trying to accomplish" serves no real purpose.

Which is why my post actually makes the point several people want to make:

I don't actually think this mechanic is trying to accomplish this with its effects,

 

[mursolini]

The first electrical heaters were invented by the 1890s and found widespread use in the 1910s onward.

Define widespread, and are we talking small.heaters for room, or entire building?

The first oil burners using crude oil or kerosene was invented in the 1840s while todays oil heaters (technically Diesel heaters) came up in the 1920s. Even gas heaters were available. All within the scope of the game.

Again room or building?

You should know be better by now. I picked that example deliberately.

View attachment 982168

And in case it's not clear:

View attachment 982169

So, even if Vic3 is really Stellaris in disguise, my example makes perfect sense. Electricity is used for heating in the game. I doubt people are swapping from electric heat to coal burning furnaces on a weekly basis.

Sure, the question is does it really make sense for pops to use those 2, considering neither is even widespread today, outside of extremely small room-wide heaters.

 

[Secret Master]

Sure, the question is does it really make sense for pops to use those 2, considering neither is even widespread today, outside of extremely small room-wide heaters.

Now I'm confused.

Are you suggesting that central air/heat isn't electrical in many places? I mean, most people today integrate their heating and cooling systems into one thing, but if someone has window units, central heat/air, or something like it, it's probably electrical. And it's heating even if it can also be used to cool.

I would argue that electrical heating is more common than wood heating today. (Vic3 doesn' have gas, so I'm not sure where to put that in this discussion.)

 

[Sbrubbles]

According to this from DD13, I would say that this is how it has been designed.

View attachment 982306

Interestingly, it's not the only issue where the game looks at good availability (according to buy vs sell orders, presumably) when instead what it should be looking at is prices. Import/export suggestion does this, for example, suggesting routes with negative productivity just because you have a good deficit/surplus (ignoring that the whole world has a deficit/surplus that's worse than yours).

I wonder if the devs missed that price is the single most important economic signal in capitalist economies.

 

[mursolini]

Now I'm confused.

Are you suggesting that central air/heat isn't electrical in many places? I mean, most people today integrate their heating and cooling systems into one thing, but if someone has window units, central heat/air, or something like it, it's probably electrical. And it's heating even if it can also be used to cool.

Seems like very American thing. Can`t talk about industrial/comercial aplications, but at least in many places in Europe cooling unit isn`t even typical(if there is it is 100% electirc though), while heating is gas/coal/wood or central from some thermoelectrical power station.

Granted even in US heat pumps are pretty recent thing, starting from 2000s or so, and gas is still 50% of households.

Almost Even Split Between Natural Gas and Electric Heating Systems in New Homes | Eye On Housing

The Census Bureau’s Survey of Construction (SOC) provides valuable information on the characteristics of new homes started construction, such as air conditioning and heating system installations. Air Conditioning In 2021, 97 percent of new single-family homes started had a central AC system...

eyeonhousing.org

I would argue that electrical heating is more common than wood heating today. (Vic3 doesn' have gas, so I'm not sure where to put that in this discussion.)

I`m unsure. If we count pelets as wood that is, and we also count the world as opposed to just US&West EU.

So, given the evidence, I find it extremely hard to believe that pops in V3 should use electricity for heating to any significant margin.

 

[Aliquam]

I do believe the OP was about pops incorrectly choosing substitution goods, not if a bug/ovsersight in the game results with game being more historical or not.

 

[durbal]

I do believe the OP was about pops incorrectly choosing substitution goods, not if a bug/ovsersight in the game results with game being more historical or not.

Exactly. And as has already been pointed out from multiple angles, rationalizing a bad design decision with some post-hoc justification specific to heating and that still doesn't make sense on its own (since pops will still quickly and freely switch when goods' supply changes) is absurd. In this thread we even have mods that are derailing the discussion with that nonsense. Stop already.

 

[Secret Master]

I`m unsure. If we count pelets as wood that is, and we also count the world as opposed to just US&West EU.

I had to think about this one for a bit. In Vic3 terms, I figure pellets as a heating thing aren't wood in the sense Vic3 means it. From what I know, it's something that got it's big start in the 1980s and it's sort of a "we have this waste wood product, so let's send it to yet another factory and turn into heating fuel." If it was in Vic3, I think it would be modeled as a product of a factory and be made from wood, not wood itself. The wood POPs can burn is just unprocessed stuff that even subsistence farms produce.

But I'm not the expert on it.

As for the non-European/US parts of the world, I won't argue that we are talking about the rest of the world. Although in Vic3, only countries with substantial tech and industrialization are going to have some of those heating options, including electricity. So, I figure even if you are living in Punjab and have an electric heating system of some kind in your home in 1910, you probably aren't also installing 3 wood heaters, 2 kerosene heaters, and Ebeneezer Scrooge's hand-me-down coal furnace all at the same time.

Hilariously, though, fabric also meets heating needs. In that case, I can see someone swapping immediately from burning wood to cuddling up with a warm blanket. That's heating substitution I can believe in.

 

[yurcick]

According to this from DD13, I would say that this is how it has been designed.

View attachment 982306

I'd say that's self-contradictory.
They either make a rational purchase decision, or they make a decision based on which goods are the most available in the sense that is ultimately used in the game.

However, the latter can be interpreted as "the most available as a percentage of demand", which is essentially price. This would make sense, but for some obscure reason it's not how it works.

Hilariously, though, fabric also meets heating needs

I believe (not really sure) that it means literal burning of the cloth and cloth-ready plants like cotton.
Dunno if that was in any way widespread historically.

Also, I'm quite sure that heating needs abstract cooking as well, for which it's quite natural to use oil, even in cases where the building is coal-heated.

 

[Sagrifizius]

I believe (not really sure) that it means literal burning of the cloth and cloth-ready plants like cotton.
Dunno if that was in any way widespread historically.

I think it implies wearing thicker clothes and blankets etc.

 

[shoebird]

However, the latter can be interpreted as "the most available as a percentage of demand", which is essentially price. This would make sense, but for some obscure reason it's not how it works.

English is not my native language, but I think the quote clearly matches what we have in the game, with the objection that exports and industrial consumption are divided by two. Guessing how to interpret it doesn’t make much sense IMO.

A different question is why they implemented it this way. I haven’t checked if any dev commented on this in the DD. Two options come to mind. The first one, is that they are trying to simulate that regardless of price, it is easier to find abundant more expensive goods in the shops, than cheap but scarce ones (which can be cheap, because they are not widely distributed).

The second one is because technical reasons. I don’t know, this implementation might be easier to balance or more stable. Whatever. If I have to guess, I would say the main reason is the second, and the first one or something similar was used to rationalize it.

 

[maxirage]

it is easier to find abundant more expensive goods in the shops, than cheap but scarce ones (which can be cheap, because they are not widely distributed).

If a resource is useful and scarce, then it will not be be cheap. That's basic supply/demand. The economic principle you are describing not exist. Why would anyone, let alone the developers, try to model this?

 

[ConstantineTheGreat]

Also, I honestly believe that valid further system improvements are suggested, but this is anyway for the devs to judge and comment

Same thing with the warfare mega thread. There are lots of questions we want answered/devs to clarify but they aren’t answering.

 

[shoebird]

If a resource is useful and scarce, then it will not be be cheap. That's basic supply/demand. The economic principle you are describing not exist. Why would anyone, let alone the developers, try to model this?

So a good that is locally abundant but not distributed elsewhere can’t be cheap while at the same time not being widely used, because it is not distributed across the country. Of course, that’s not exactly what happens in the game ( I haven’t checked if goods substitution is aware of the locally produced goods, but I bet it is not), but the aggregate effect is the same.

But as I said, I don’t think the devs were trying to model this market non ideality, the reason for this implementation is likely technical.