This discussion took place elsewhere, now it will continue here. Please.
Norrefeldt said:Mongolia starts with land tech 5 1419. Can you confirm that it's a bug? Should it be 0 or 1?
Sun_Zi_36 said:not a bug. people have been saying in various places to boost tech levels in the Far East. i intended it to be the first of such increases. China should start at 4. Mongol tech level is justified because they are only forced away from China half a decade ago and military technology hasnt changed much since.
i think they should be in china techgroup if not it should be fixed.
BTW i m feeling a bit guilty that it's now beta 1.25 and i still havent put in anything to formalise the inclusion of mongolia and havent introduced the new Zheng He events. i m still too busy with real life work and assignments etc, but i will try my best to make the time for it.
Norrefeldt said:They are in china group already.
So the mongols would easily overrun an equally sized English HYW army with one third longbow archers 1419? I'm not so sure.
Could you help me with some links to these discussions. I'm interested to learn more about what military technics they knew about that only came to Europe half a century later. This should be discussed forum wide, not just in Far East, to get it implemented.
Isaac Brock said:But how much does it matter? They will never face those longbow armed English troops. The neighbour bonus could be a small problem, but China advances so quickly that it's hardly going to matter. As long as they advance slowly (how can they not) by the time they face anyone but China they will be lagging in tech.
Oh yeah this needs to be in a different thread.
edit: I suppose that if they can overrun China very early on that would be a problem too. Seems pretty unlikely to me. And on the argument of realism it might be a bit lacking - hard for me to understand why they should have weaker cavalry and stronger infantry than the Chinese. But given the options available it makes sense for gameplay.
doktarr said:I doubt it as well, but:
1) Tech 1 vs. tech 5 is basically a wash; it's tech 9 that matters. The Mongols are just getting a bit of a head start.
2) I thought the Mongol change was not just the start of diversified tech levels in the east, but diversified tech levels everywhere. I thought China was going to start as the tech leader, being the only nation with cannon. You could make an argument that England should get cannon as well, since Henry was the first European to use massed cannons to end seiges.
The rest of Europe and Asia would range from land 6 to land 3, with 2 and lower reserved for primitive societies. We would include a modified land.csv that gives massively reduced shock values for the lowest (0, 1, and 2) tech levels.Here's a link to MKJ's tech level tweaking thread. That's where I'm getting this stuff from.
P.S. Sun Zi, a couple weeks ago I edited my double post on the previous page into a response in our long-standing Mongol/China/Russia debate. It's right above MKJ's map. Not sure you noticed. Respond (or don't) at your leisure.
Isaac Brock said:I don't want to start this argument, but I hate this idea.
And my suport for tech 5 mongols should in NO WAY be taken as endorsing the ideas from that thread. I think it's overkill, I think it's adressing a problem that we do not have. Tweaking level 1 and 2 makes some sense, messing with the Chinese naval techs helps with a problem we definitely do have, but starting people out at tech 6 is hopeless. 7 to 11 are very cheap techs, and we'll get arquebusiers very very early.
I had thought that the mongol tech was there to represent the fact they they need hogh morale relative to the Chinese, no more and no less. If it is in fact the thin wedge for undermining the entire land tech system I say make them tech 1. They ought to have higher shock value cavalry anyway.
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