Nova Monumenta Iaponiae Historica

[icedt729]

The problem is, Nanushi, Shoya etc. were leader of peasants, and CK2 doesn't have the representative of this social class.

This issue is a little sticky because, for the most part, you didn't really have landed burghers in Japan like you did in Europe. The myoshu were prominent enough in provincial politics that I really don't think they should be left out, but they were in a weird grey area between noble and burgher that makes them tough to fit into CK2. At any rate, I think mayors should be considered peasant leaders rather than merchants in most cases.

 

[Arcvalons]

Maybe you could eventually implement Mongol Invasions or Chinese Invasions using the Sunset Invasion mechanics.

 

[chatnoir17]

This issue is a little sticky because, for the most part, you didn't really have landed burghers in Japan like you did in Europe. The myoshu were prominent enough in provincial politics that I really don't think they should be left out, but they were in a weird grey area between noble and burgher that makes them tough to fit into CK2. At any rate, I think mayors should be considered peasant leaders rather than merchants in most cases.

We can't separate Myoshu from Jizamurai (small Kokujin). This difference has happen after the Edo period, and before that, peasants were heavily armed and they provided manpower for daimyos. That's why I consider "castle" in game as an unit with some fort and villages around them.

As for cities, there were many ports and enough cities. They weren't like European cities, but were enough unique for politics and economies to be one category of settlements in game.

 

[chatnoir17]

Maybe you could eventually implement Mongol Invasions or Chinese Invasions using the Sunset Invasion mechanics.

It is unrealistic, In my opinion. China had no interest on Japan, and the Chinese fleet was powerless. Some Chinese pirates wrongly called Japanese pirates (at least for the 16th century) could raid some provinces, but that's all.

If we finish everything in our to-do list, we may consider it again.

 

[icedt729]

We can't separate Myoshu from Jizamurai (small Kokujin). This difference has happen after the Edo period, and before that, peasants were heavily armed and they provided manpower for daimyos. That's why I consider "castle" in game as an unit with some fort and villages around them.

Makes sense. My thinking was just that in Europe, the three pillars of the state were the knights, the burghers and the clergy, and the holdings correspond well to that, but the relative powerlessness of the merchants in Japan made me think it would be interesting to set up the myoshu as a parallel to the minor samurai (even if there wasn't much of a de facto difference between the two). But...

As for cities, there were many ports and enough cities. They weren't like European cities, but were enough unique for politics and economies to be one category of settlements in game.

Yeah, I really underestimated the number of cities and the level of trade. I've been reading a book published by this symposium on Sengoku history, and it had kinda given me the impression that there weren't many significant trading ports outside of the Kansai. Maybe they're overselling the importance of the Nobunaga-style castle town.

 

[chatnoir17]

Yeah, I really underestimated the number of cities and the level of trade. I've been reading a book published by this symposium on Sengoku history, and it had kinda given me the impression that there weren't many significant trading ports outside of the Kansai. Maybe they're overselling the importance of the Nobunaga-style castle town.

It is because people value Japanese cities mainly in relation to Europeans. In this sight, Sakai, Hakata or Nagasaki have prestige to be called real cities. However, there were other places for exchanging goods. Weekly markets were allowed there too, so they are comparable with European cities, at least these in 1066.

Of course Japan didn't have a ton of independent rich cities. It says, many provinces in game won't have city type settlements at game start. They function just as economical accent for rich areas such as Kyoto.

 

[Lunawolf242]

If you need me I will be working on the dynasties of pre-Sengoku era Japan for flavour, currently I am touching up the Imperial Family and I hope to finish the past shogun family. Email things into my inbox if you need anything.

 

[chatnoir17]

If you need me I will be working on the dynasties of pre-Sengoku era Japan for flavour, currently I am touching up the Imperial Family and I hope to finish the past shogun family. Email things into my inbox if you need anything.

Thanks. Please do what you want. Just pay attention to the file and character/dynasty ids, since they are sorted by regions (for characters in Tohoku region: 1-9999 etc.).
As far as I did, the Ashikaga Shogunate is finished, and we have already the Imperial families from the 6th to the 14th century around Go-Daigo.

 

[Lunawolf242]

Can you email me the Imperial Family files, I was working on the whole family including non emperor's from the 1st Century and onward. Would make my job easier, and I am starting work on the Minamoto and Taira clans.

 

[chatnoir17]

You can download the file from here.
Please avoid the duplication, and post the data constantly and tell me the range of characters/dynasties before you add them, since other people are working on family trees too.

 

[icedt729]

I can tell you're still mostly focused on the history files right now, but what kind of plans do you have for tech, buildings and units?

 

[I Killed Kenny]

I would "recommend" that the westerners are republics... I think that would make sense, since the Portuguese and the Dutch had Tradeposts and etc... I would also recommend that the westerners could only conquer cities if they have lot's of prestige or something, as IRL the westerners did not conquer anything in Japan

 

[chatnoir17]

I can tell you're still mostly focused on the history files right now, but what kind of plans do you have for tech, buildings and units?

Techs:The game starts with tech 3-4. It is not only because we can add some earlier scenarios later with low techs, but also we can't control the development of techs in CK2. The advancement of this era could be represented with buildings.

Buildings: They will start with high buildings too. Some cultural (in this mod regional) buildings would be nice too.

Units: Some units will be replaced with Japanese ones. Firearms should be included, of course.
My plan is...
LIGHT　INFANTRY:Ashigaru(untrained peasant foot soldiers)
HEAVY　INFANTRY:Sohei(Warrior Monks)
PIKEMEN:Yari-Ashigaru(Pikemen)
LIGHT　CAVALRY:Samurai(Cavalry with long range attack)
KNIGHTS:Umamawari(Elite Cavalry)
ARCHERS:Yumi(Archers)
HORSE　ARCHERS:Teppo(Arquebus)

 

[chatnoir17]

I would "recommend" that the westerners are republics... I think that would make sense, since the Portuguese and the Dutch had Tradeposts and etc... I would also recommend that the westerners could only conquer cities if they have lot's of prestige or something, as IRL the westerners did not conquer anything in Japan

I have no plan about Westerners and Christianity by now. As for republics, I will include Sakai and Hakata as Japanese maritime republics. Not sure about Western republics, since this mod begins in 1534 and they don't appear at game start so you can't choose Western republics. Maybe handling with buildings would be fair for Portuguese and Dutch merchants.

 

[icedt729]

Techs:The game starts with tech 3-4. It is not only because we can add some earlier scenarios later with low techs, but also we can't control the development of techs in CK2. The advancement of this era could be represented with buildings.

Buildings: They will start with high buildings too. Some cultural (in this mod regional) buildings would be nice too.

Units: Some units will be replaced with Japanese ones. Firearms should be included, of course.
My plan is...
LIGHT　INFANTRY:Ashigaru(untrained peasant foot soldiers)
HEAVY　INFANTRY:Sohei(Warrior Monks)
PIKEMEN:Yari-Ashigaru(Pikemen)
LIGHT　CAVALRY:Samurai(Cavalry with long range attack)
KNIGHTS:Umamawari(Elite Cavalry)
ARCHERS:Yumi(Archers)
HORSE　ARCHERS:Teppo(Arquebus)

I like the unit choices a lot- the only thing I imagined differently was that heavy infantry would include both sohei and kachi (and admittedly, the prevalence of kachi units might just be another anachronism I've picked up from the Edo period). I think the approach is spot-on and ought to be realistic and well-balanced.

What sort of cultural buildings do you have in mind? Better stables for the Kai-Shinano-Hida culture seems like an obvious one, but what would be the specialty for, say, the Tohoku culture? You mentioned maybe including some Shogun Total War-style cultural variation so I'm curious what kind of lines you're thinking along.

Sorry to keep barraging you with questions, but the mod seems really promising and I have a lot to ask

 

[ZhugeKongming]

It is unrealistic, In my opinion. China had no interest on Japan, and the Chinese fleet was powerless. Some Chinese pirates wrongly called Japanese pirates (at least for the 16th century) could raid some provinces, but that's all.

If we finish everything in our to-do list, we may consider it again.

Well, I think at least some of the wakō were Japanese. But yes, it's very unrealistic. I do hope you plan to include Mongol invasions, though.

 

[chatnoir17]

Well, I think at least some of the wakō were Japanese. But yes, it's very unrealistic. I do hope you plan to include Mongol invasions, though.

Early Wako (14-15th century) was mainly Japanese. After that, they became international. The record of Ming said that only three of each ten were actually Japanese　(大抵真倭十之三、從倭者十之七), and some Chinese pirates (=free traders) played very important role in Japanese history, f.e. Wang Zhi who helped Portuguese to reach Tanegashima, or Zheng Zhilong who was the father of Koxinga.

For me, Invasions of Shamnese or Manchu are more plausible. Manchu became strong in the 16th century and they invaded Tsushima with ships around the 10th century. And in Sham (Thailand), many Japanese worked as mercenary (Yamada Nagamasa, f.e.), so it isn't a surprise in game if they return with an Elephant troop and exotic army.
On the other hand, the Mongols were weak and divided in that period. If anyone could attack Japan from the continent, it should be Ming or Korea.

 

[chatnoir17]

I like the unit choices a lot- the only thing I imagined differently was that heavy infantry would include both sohei and kachi (and admittedly, the prevalence of kachi units might just be another anachronism I've picked up from the Edo period). I think the approach is spot-on and ought to be realistic and well-balanced.

What sort of cultural buildings do you have in mind? Better stables for the Kai-Shinano-Hida culture seems like an obvious one, but what would be the specialty for, say, the Tohoku culture? You mentioned maybe including some Shogun Total War-style cultural variation so I'm curious what kind of lines you're thinking along.

Kachi or Musha would be nice too. It could include trained foot soldiers such as Sohei.

STW2 style is gamey and has weak historical reasons. but some gamey characterization will be needed. We also add economic and cultural uniqueness with buildings.

 

[icedt729]

STW2 style is gamey and has weak historical reasons. but some gamey characterization will be needed. We also add economic and cultural uniqueness with buildings.

I agree. A lot of the specialties (swordsmen for Shimazu, archers for Chosokabe) were only included for the sake of diversifying gameplay. I guess in general, I'd like to see diversity between clans and cultures, but I'd like for most of that diversity to come from things like laws, decisions, the ruler's traits and the natural resources of their territory. I.e., the Takeda clan used cavalry extensively because they controlled excellent horse-breeding grounds in Shinano. Realistically speaking, nothing should stop any other clan in control of that area from fielding cavalry that's just as numerous and effective, and for that matter daimyo could have invested considerably in building up a strong horse-producing region in other provinces. I'd like to see specialization like that, where clans specialize in order to make use of their natural advantages, not like the Shogun 2 system where some clans are just better at certain things for no real reason.

 

[Zireael]

Techs:The game starts with tech 3-4. It is not only because we can add some earlier scenarios later with low techs, but also we can't control the development of techs in CK2. The advancement of this era could be represented with buildings.

Buildings: They will start with high buildings too. Some cultural (in this mod regional) buildings would be nice too.

Units: Some units will be replaced with Japanese ones. Firearms should be included, of course.
My plan is...
LIGHT　INFANTRY:Ashigaru(untrained peasant foot soldiers)
HEAVY　INFANTRY:Sohei(Warrior Monks)
PIKEMEN:Yari-Ashigaru(Pikemen)
LIGHT　CAVALRY:Samurai(Cavalry with long range attack)
KNIGHTS:Umamawari(Elite Cavalry)
ARCHERS:Yumi(Archers)
HORSE　ARCHERS:Teppo(Arquebus)

I like this. Brilliant!