New Welsh COAs

[LlywelynII]

So, the Welsh provinces look like this:

Current COA​

WALE: Owain Glyndwr
GWYN: Iowerth the Cripple, Llywelyn Fawr, Dafydd ap Llywelyn
DEHE: Rhys ap Tewdwr Mawr
C018: British County Dyfed (based on Ceredigion, Dinefwr, and Dyfed arms)
C019: British Glamorgan (de Clare chevrons + Tudor roses)
C020: British Monmouthshire (based on Gwent, plus castles)
C060: British County Clwyd (based on Powys Fadog, Edwin Tegaingl, plus a river)
C064: Llywelyn the Last (badly pixelated)
C065: Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Madog Goch, Owain Cyfeliog

 

[LlywelynII]

Wale:

Now, in the 1337 scenario, they're all occupied by the British, so that one's not important, unless someone wants to come in later and add some Marcher lord COAs.

For the Kingdom of Wales, the current COA is as good as any. IRL, the COAs were mostly personal and anyone who took over the kingdom would've used their own (eg, a Dinefwr Wales would've used the Dinefwr lion, a Mathrafal Wales the Powys one). Owain Glyndwr came in very late but was very successful for his few short years and – given that the English tainted Llywelyn Fawr's arms – it's currently pretty popular as a national symbol.

Here's an alternate one to the current ingame version:

Some fantasy COAs people might enjoy using:

The dragon banner was a war banner that meant no prisoners would be taken, probably originally from the Roman cavalry standards but possibly earlier. The first is from Nennius, who talked about a red dragon on a white field being carried by the Welsh who fought the Saxon invasions. It's also often called the Red Dragon of Cadwalladr. The second is the golden dragon borne by Owain Glyndwr only at Caernarfon: the golden dragon was attributed to Uthar Pendragon and also the foretold coming savior. The next was originally the standard for Henry Tudor, but has since been somewhat tainted by its use by the non-Welsh English. The fourth was a variant used by the British Welsh Office. And the last is a version of the Cadwalladr dragon done up in gold.

Some people might also like to use the St. Dafydd cross:

 

[LlywelynII]

Gwyn & dehe

Now, admittedly, it's a little odd: in the 1066 scenario, GWYN should have C065's arms (the Powys lion), and in the 1187 scenario, it should have Dafydd ab Owain Gwynedd's. I couldn't find what those were – no one copied Gruffydd ap Cynan's arms, but Owain Gwynedd's show up in his descendants with marks for cadency (annulet for Dafydd, fleur-de-lis for Rhodri) – but they certainly weren't his brother Iowerth's lions that were inherited by Llywelyn the Great.

Still and all, Llywelyn's lions should be somewhere important: if not the kingdom, then the duchy of Gwynedd. A 1187 GWYN player will, nine times out of ten, scheme to get Llywelyn onto the throne. Moreover, Llywelyn's heirs in Gwynedd used it after him, and it allows an ENGL player to give his son a series of duchies starting with GWYN that makes him a Prince of Wales with proper COA.

So, that's fine, although a 1066 Mathrafal player might want to move the C065 coat and a 1066 Aberffraw schemer might want these:

or

Gruffydd Aberffraw ap Cynan (courtier in Dublin, 1066)

Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd
(possibly including Rhodri & Dafydd ab Owain in 1187)​

With DEHE, it's debatable. The current arms are those of Rhys ap Tewdwr Mawr who is only a distant relative and courtier of the 1066 court: a player is far more likely to breed heirs by a new wife with Maredudd Dinefwr ab Owain. But I can't find what those were anywhere on the interwebs.

The more famous Lord Rhys in the 1187 scenario didn't bear the other Rhys's arms but something like this:

And yet, Rhys ap Tewdwr was considered an important ancestor and his arms show up more often than Lord Rhys's subsequently.

 

[LlywelynII]

C064: Gwynedd

Generally, the county arms of Gwynedd aren't going to matter much: it's ENGL royal demesne in 1337 and will tend to be WALE or GWYN demesne most of the time in a Welsh game.

On the other hand, the current COA is awful, with a badly pixelated border where there shouldn't be one. Here's a cleaned up version:

But that's the COA for Llywelyn the Last, who will never show up in a game and whose heirs didn't use his arms. Owain Lawgoch just used Llywelyn the Great's arms; Dafydd ap Gruffydd used a blue and yellow version.

Probably a better idea to use Owain Gwynedd's from above, particularly since indy C064 in 1187 probably used it and is the only time it'll show up in a Welsh game.

 

[LlywelynII]

C065: Powys (Wenwynwyn)

Currently has the Mathrafal lion, which is ok. It's Bleddyn's arms, so it probably wasn't Rhywallon's (1066), but Madog Goch and Owain Cyfeliog (1187) both used it.

Owain's son Gwenwynwyn, though, didn't bear the whole lion but just his arm:

 

[LlywelynII]

C060: Powys Fadog

Well, right now, it's not much of anything – a British council design from the 50s. Cleaning it up is a little messy, though, since in 1066, it's under Edwin Tegaingl. Wiki gives his arms as:

(but really the cross should be engrailed)​

In 1187, it's under GWYN and the Aberffraw clan.

On the other hand, despite not showing up in either scenario, it was generally under a cadet branch of the Mathrafals who used a sable lion on white or over white and red:

&

 

[LlywelynII]

C018: Dyfed

Again, another British council design we should nix.

Problem here is that any player who starts with C018 starts off with DEHE except for the 1337 Marcher lord Hastings. So we could use the Ceredigion lion by itself:

A better idea would be to use Lord Rhys's design from above. Or use the current Dinefwr lion for C018 and use Lord Rhys's design for the DEHE duchy.

But probably the best to use as the default would be one of the Earls of Pembroke:

First Creation, de Clare

Second Creation, Marshal

Third Creation, de Valence

Fourth Creation, Hastings
(NB, this was the COA for Baron Hastings,
and the Earl of Pembroke might be different)​

 

[LlywelynII]

C019: Morgannwg

Again with the British councils.

This one is easy, though:

In 1066, Iestyn ap Gwrgant hasn't taken over yet, but his arms are the traditional symbol for the region and appear, ia, on the Cardiff arms. They should be the arms for the county.

 

[LlywelynII]

C020: Gwent

Another British council design, another replacement:

 

[LlywelynII]

Welsh ecclesiastical provinces:

If players would like to score some points with the church, they might want to use the parish COAs for their new bishops:

Archbishop of St. Dafydd's (C018)

Bishop of Llandaff (C019)

Bishop of Monmouth (C020)

Bishop of St. Asaph's (C060)

Bishop of Bangor (C064)​

An archdiocese for Wales would simply be St. Dafydd's,

The attributed arms of St. Dafydd himself​

but the current Church in Wales flag is too pretty not to include:

 

[LlywelynII]

Arms of the 15 Noble Tribes:

The Fifteen Noble Tribes of Wales
(ie, Gwynedd)

I. Hwfa ap Cynddelw

II. Llywarch ap Bran

III. Gweirydd ap Rhys Goch

IIII. Cilmin Troed Du

V. Collwyn ap Tango

VI. Nefydd Hardd

VII. Maelog Crwm

VIII. Marchudd ap Cynan

VIIII. Hedd Molwynog

X. Braint Hir

XI. Marchwithian Isaled

XII. Edwin Tegaingl, above

XIII. Ednowain Bendew

XIIII. Efnydd ap Gwenllian

XV. Ednowain ap Bradwen

(Tudor Trevor)​

 

[Drachenfire]

Excellent Llywelyn!

Don't forget we have Jord's DVIP with new Wales map and also the new Wales map appears with Veld's TASS mode. So there are a few more provinces we may chose to use too. In point of fact, I havent played on a standard map since the new Wales maps were introduced. They are excellent.

I tend to favor Gruffydd ap Cynan's arms for the county of Gwynedd, and Owain Gwynedd's arms for he Duchy of Gwynedd, and either Llywelyn the Greats or Owain IV Glendwr's arms for K.o. Wales.

What arms would you suggest for Ynys Mon? I write more tonight when I have more time. I'm split on weather to use the Earl of Pembroke William Marshal's arms for Dyfed, or that of St. David's to be honset.

 

[LlywelynII]

Hmm... Well, that looks great, but

1. I don't have that included in my copy of DVIP, which means I need to update, but probably should finish up any games I have going now to keep from losing the saves.
2. Veld's mod at least uses the ugly metal shield overlay; does DVIP, too? I might've just made these only to have them never get used, since they don't fit in with the style of the new map

As far as COA distribution, it looks like the provinces are now Ynys Mon, Gwynedd (really Arfon, now, right?), Powys, Ceredigion, Dyfed, Brycheiniog, Gwent, Morgannwg, Maelionydd (not Buillt?). Perfed's been renamed ... what? Clwyd? I guess Powys Fadog doesn't fit.

Gwent and Morgannwg are fixed, but some of the other shields are still off, though:

WALE: Should have its capital on Ynys Mon.
GWYN: The Tudor dragon could be a COA for a Welsh king, but not a prince of Gwynedd. Use Llywelyn's 4 lions passant or Owain's 3 eagles. The capital should be on Ynys Mon.
DEHE: That's the attributed arms for the old kingdom of Dyfed that was extinguished by Hywel Dda in the 10th century. Really, it shouldn't show up at all, but it certainly shouldn't be the prince's COA. Use the Dinefwr bordered lion or Lord Rhys's lion and crows. The capital should be in Ystrad Twyi.
Ceredigion: Presumably already is the rearguardant gold lion, but should be if it isn't.
Dyfed & Ystrad Twyi: A little tricky, since they tended to be held by the Dinefwrs. You could go with Dewi Sant's arms for Dyfed and Lord Rhys's arms for an indy YT. Or use the powerful Lord Rhys's arms for DEHE, and the Dinefwr lion for YT. Or use Marshal's arms for Dyfed. You could always use the old Dyfed arms - it shows up in the triplet with Ceredigion and Dinefwr's lions on modern arms so it makes a nice set - but afaik they weren't used during the CK period by anyone.
Powys: I have no idea what those balls are from, but it should be the Mathrafal lion as a default.
Clwyd: See above for the black Powys Fadog lion v. Tegeingl's cross and crows. The cross could always stand being engrailed (wavy).
Brycheiniog: I'm not sure where those chevrons came from, but Brychan's own attributed arms were these:

And I certainly think the bats should have a chance to show up in CK

Meirchionydd: uh... No idea, atm. Who was the Marcher lord of Buillt?

(Is there a new duchy for Powys? It should use the Mathrafal lion and Bleddyn should hold it as his primary title before Gwynedd in 1066; the Powys (Wenwynwyn) county could use Gwenwynwyn's arms above or just repeat the lion.)

 

[Drachenfire]

Hmm... Well, that looks great, but

1. I don't have that included in my copy of DVIP, which means I need to update, but probably should finish up any games I have going now to keep from losing the saves.
2. Veld's mod at least uses the ugly metal shield overlay; does DVIP, too? I might've just made these only to have them never get used, since they don't fit in with the style of the new map

Aye, the new coats of Arms are in Jord's DVIP and in DVIP: Wales Map Mode. But they only really include the Gruffydd ap Cynan (red lions on white field) for County of Gwynedd, and the Llywelyn ap Iowerth (or his father Iorwerth Drwyndwn) for the Duchy of Gwynedd. The Kingdom of Wales uses the Arms of Owain IV Glendwr.

For Powys, we have the red lion on yellow field.

The others could be changed.

As far as COA distribution, it looks like the provinces are now Ynys Mon, Gwynedd (really Arfon, now, right? Actually, Argon, Llyn, and Merionydd), Powys, Ceredigion, Dyfed, Brycheiniog, Gwent, Morgannwg, Maelionydd (not Buillt? No, Maelionydd as the geographic region just south of Powys proper). Perfed's been renamed ... what? Clwyd? [I]No, it hasn't, it is still Perfeddwlad[/I]) I guess Powys Fadog doesn't fit.
Gwent and Morgannwg are fixed, but some of the other shields are still off, though:

WALE: Should have its capital on Ynys Mon. Or Dinefwr in Ystrad Tywi
GWYN: The Tudor dragon could be a COA for a Welsh king, but not a prince of Gwynedd. Use Llywelyn's 4 lions passant or Owain's 3 eagles. The capital should be on Ynys Mon. I am now tending to favo Owain's thee eagles as the Duchy of Gwynedd arms.
DEHE: That's the attributed arms for the old kingdom of Dyfed that was extinguished by Hywel Dda in the 10th century. Really, it shouldn't show up at all, but it certainly shouldn't be the prince's COA. Use the Dinefwr bordered lion or Lord Rhys's lion and crows. The capital should be in Ystrad Twyi. Right, agreed.
Ceredigion: Presumably already is the rearguardant gold lion, but should be if it isn't. Agreed, I don't know which CoA is presently there in the DVIP Wales mode until I redownload it.
Dyfed & Ystrad Twyi: A little tricky, since they tended to be held by the Dinefwrs. You could go with Dewi Sant's arms for Dyfed and Lord Rhys's arms for an indy YT. Or use the powerful Lord Rhys's arms for DEHE, and the Dinefwr lion for YT. Or use Marshal's arms for Dyfed. You could always use the old Dyfed arms - it shows up in the triplet with Ceredigion and Dinefwr's lions on modern arms so it makes a nice set - but afaik they weren't used during the CK period by anyone. I am thinking that the county arms for Dyfed should be the Marshal family Earls of Pembroke. In the second and thrid scenarios, Dyfed really represents Pembroke mostly.
Powys: I have no idea what those balls are from, but it should be the Mathrafal lion as a default. The DVIP and DVIP Wales has the correct Mathrafal arms.
Clwyd: See above for the black Powys Fadog lion v. Tegeingl's cross and crows. The cross could always stand being engrailed (wavy). The Perfeddwlad uses the Tegeingle family arms of the cross and crows in the DVIP and DVIP: Wales.
Brycheiniog: I'm not sure where those chevrons came from, but Brychan's own attributed arms were these:

And I certainly think the bats should have a chance to show up in CK

Meirchionydd: uh... No idea, atm. Who was the Marcher lord of Buillt? Buillt coud be represenitive of Buillt, but there is another intention for it that hasn't yet found its way into the 1187 mode as yet. Ill explain soonish, once Jord has more time to work with the DVIP for the 1187 scenario.

(Is there a new duchy for Powys? It should use the Mathrafal lion and Bleddyn should hold it as his primary title before Gwynedd in 1066; the Powys (Wenwynwyn) county could use Gwenwynwyn's arms above or just repeat the lion. There is a Duchy of Powys comprising of Powys and Maelienydd. In Veld's Tass mode he includes Shrewsbury as part of Powys. DVIP and DVIP has Shrewsbury and Hereford (and I think Chester) as part of The March duchy)[/QUOTE]

 

[Ayeshteni]

Veld's mod at least uses the ugly metal shield overlay; does DVIP, too? I might've just made these only to have them never get used, since they don't fit in with the style of the new map

TASS also has wooden shields, as I use both the mod and the wooden shields, not a big fan of the shiny metal ones.

Aye.

 

[LlywelynII]

Actually, Ar[f]on, Llyn, and Merionydd

Well, yeah, and Ar..ll... um... (clickclickclick) Arllechwedd, Dunoding, and Penllyn. I was just thinking that calling it Gwynedd might make it seem more essential to Gwynedd than Ynys Mon, when it wasn't. Gwynedd is fine, but Arfon was the richest, biggest part of that section, so you could call it Arfon and leave the duchy as a whole named Gwynedd.

No, Maelionydd as the geographic region just south of Powys proper

But there was no geographic region - there were just the separate cantrefi of Buillt, Maelienydd, Elfael (not counting Gwrthernion and Elenydd). Sure it needs a name if you don't lump it with Brycheiniog and call it Twixt Wye and Severn; I was just asking why Maelionydd instead of Buillt.

Afaik, Buillt was always the richest, more important cantref, but maybe that's just because of the castle there.

]No, it hasn't, it is still Perfeddwlad

Oh, ok.

Or Dinefwr in Ystrad Tywi

Yeah, but no real way to code for two capitals, is there? (Any more than to have two COAs, depending on the successful dynasty ) Just have Ystrad Twyi and Ynys Mon be the two highest income provinces so the capital ends up at one if you give the other away.

I am now tending to favo Owain's thee eagles as the Duchy of Gwynedd arms.

It'd be appropriate, but you'd want Llywelyn's arms somewhere. If they're not on the GWYN shield, they'd need to be the WALE one. But then you've got to ditch Owain Glyndwr's.

I'd think Owain Gwynedd's for Ynys or Gwynedd, Llywelyn's for GWYN, and Owain Glyndwr's for WALE, but I'm cool with the other way. But then what're the provincial COAs? Gruffydd wyr Iago's for Ynys Mon and. . . ?

Llywelyn the Last's? Dafydd's blue lions? Those seem more lame. . .

Right, agreed.

Actually, wrote that and then read today that Lord Rhys kept his main court at the castle at Cardigan. But easy enough to understand: if a player had a bigger, better castle, he could give away YT to a vassal to move his court over.

I am thinking that the county arms for Dyfed should be the Marshal family Earls of Pembroke. In the second and thrid scenarios, Dyfed really represents Pembroke mostly.

Yeah, but Marshal's gone in both of them. I agree with him being cooler than the other earls, though.

[Meirionydd] coud be represenitive of Buillt, but there is another intention for it that hasn't yet found its way into the 1187 mode as yet. Ill explain soonish, once Jord has more time to work with the DVIP for the 1187 scenario.

Ok? Guess I'll have to wait.

There is a Duchy of Powys comprising of Powys and Maelienydd.

Rock.

TASS also has wooden shields, as I use both the mod and the wooden shields, not a big fan of the shiny metal ones.

Cool.

I was overly rude above. I was frustrated, but should've thought to do both formats for those who prefer it. =/

 

[Drachenfire]

Hello Llywelyn!

I believe the origion for why it is Maelienydd comes in part from this map here, and this artical here.

The origional author of the new Wales map mode had actually named it Rhwng Gwy a Hafren, which is more technically correct embracing all of that region, but far more verbose. I had suggested Maelienydd because Powys duchy needed an ancillary for its Duchy, and had a historic hegonomy over Maelienydd and did not (as much as I can see) over Builith.

Granted it could have just as easily been Builith.

When I was speaking of the 1187 scenario... what I am to suggest to Veld and Jord for their updates is simply this.

Have "Maelienydd" be the "Duchy of Powys" ruled by Owain Cyfeiliog of House Mathrafal, and then have Powys "proper" represent Powys Fadog, with Gruffydd Maelor of House Mathrafal ruling and the guardian of his young nephew Llywelyn (the Great).

This set up would allow the player to play as Powys Fadog and set up Llywelyn in lower Gwynedd- the Perfeddwlad, then save and reload as Llywelyn in Perfeddwlad. A rivally would be set up between Llywelyn and Owain Cyfeiliog but especially between Llywelyn and Owain's son Gwenwynwyn ab Owain. Another rivalry would be set up between Gruffydd Maelor and Owain Cyeiliog, with a claim on Duchy of Powys by Gruffydd Maelor. A friendship would be set up between Llywelyn and his uncle Gruffydd.

There was no real secret here.

 

[Drachenfire]

Well, yeah, and Ar..ll... um... (clickclickclick) Arllechwedd, Dunoding, and Penllyn. I was just thinking that calling it Gwynedd might make it seem more essential to Gwynedd than Ynys Mon, when it wasn't. Gwynedd is fine, but Arfon was the richest, biggest part of that section, so you could call it Arfon and leave the duchy as a whole named Gwynedd.

It could have easily been named "Upper Gwynedd" too, but I thought Gwynedd was appropriate for that entire region.




Yeah, but no real way to code for two capitals, is there? (Any more than to have two COAs, depending on the successful dynasty ) Just have Ystrad Twyi and Ynys Mon be the two highest income provinces so the capital ends up at one if you give the other away.

Yes, Ystrad Twyi is suggested to be higher income in Deheubarth, but I had suggested Gwynedd higher then Ynys Mon really, because it represents a larger region. But it could have been Ynys Mon too.

It'd be appropriate, but you'd want Llywelyn's arms somewhere. If they're not on the GWYN shield, they'd need to be the WALE one. But then you've got to ditch Owain Glyndwr's.

I'd think Owain Gwynedd's for Ynys or Gwynedd, Llywelyn's for GWYN, and Owain Glyndwr's for WALE, but I'm cool with the other way. But then what're the provincial COAs? Gruffydd wyr Iago's for Ynys Mon and. . . ?

Llywelyn the Last's? Dafydd's blue lions? Those seem more lame. . .

Agreed, though it is interesting.

I suggest that Gruffydd ap Cynan's arms (red lions on white field) for Ynys Mon, then Owain Gwynedd's arms (Golden Eagles on green field) for county of Gwynedd, and Llywelyn ap Iowerth's arms (the four quartered arms red and gold lions) for Duchy of Gwynedd, and Owain Glendwr's arms for Kingdom of Wales.

The Tegeingl family arms for the Perfeddwlad.




Actually, wrote that and then read today that Lord Rhys kept his main court at the castle at Cardigan. But easy enough to understand: if a player had a bigger, better castle, he could give away YT to a vassal to move his court over.

Out of curiosity, where did you read this lov? Definely if he held is court in Ceredigion he needs to be placed there

Yeah, but Marshal's gone in both of them. I agree with him being cooler than the other earls, though.

Isabel de Clare, 4th Countess of Pembroke, was Countess of Pembroke by right in 1185, so she woud be Countess in our scenario start. Though she would be renamed Isabel de Clare Marshal (tagged to the Marshal family) so that anyone playing Pembroke would continue the Marshal family. William Marshal would be in the Pembroke Court or in the K.o. England court.

Ok? Guess I'll have to wait.


Rock.


Cool.

I was overly rude above. I was frustrated, but should've thought to do both formats for those who prefer it. =/

No worries about rudeness lov, we've been working on this project for years now. You know your contrabutions are fantastic!

 

[LlywelynII]

@rudeness
Oh, doubtless - just emending my language what with tastes being different and Veld being so great just to have done it in the first place.

@Powys setup
That makes sense gamewise, but don't change the names around. It's great we've gotten this improvement, but you know Powys is Powys Wenwynwyn and Powys Fadog is only the north part, plus most of Perf.

@New map
Looks like on the new map,

Brycheiniog is C957, Maelionydd is C958. What are the other ones? Is there a new provincial ID map somewhere?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Here is Wales

and here is Ireland