Let's talk switzerland

[AirikrStrife]

I recently read a book on swiss history (in swedish so can't give references) and one of the most striking things then studying a country/region in more depths is how often stereotypes tricks you (and sometimes even PDX) into getting a skewd image. For me one of the most notable examples in game is Tibet, whose ideas are a modern western stereotype of Tibet and completly unaware of how Tibet actually was. But enough about Tibet and on for Switzerland

There has already been good suggestion about how to improve the swiss map, https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/alpine-region-suggestions.1018886/ by @Felipe el Piadoso which points out new possible provinces in the area.

Still with these mapchanges Switzerlan is in the 15th century an extremely complex area. It's not until the turn of the century Switzerland becomes a fairly politically stable entity.
To note some examples of discrepencies in the set up. Austria still controls significant territories in Switzerland, the so called Thurgau which is not ceded until 1460. S:t Gallen and surrounding lands constituted several different entities with various degrees of association to the Swiss.
Graubünden could merit being an independent state in close relation with swtizerland.
A significant area of Valais were already independent form Savoy and in association with the swiss.
There was a civil war in the confederacy with Zürich having been expelled and fighting the rest of the confederacy.

But my main focus was to discuss ideas and other flavor of Switzerland to how it looks in game compared to how it looks in game.

1. Swiss was to a high degree a trade state. The very origin of the Swiss confederacy lies in the transalpine trade, the original states gained reichimmediacy to guarantee the free trade through the alps and the important S.t Gotthards pass. Later cities such as Zürich and Bern were importanttrade cities.
I suggest Waldstätte get's a modifier called "Gotthard pass" granting +5 to trade an possibly a defensive bonus (i.e. one of following reduced enemy movement speed, increased enemy attrition, increased defensivness or similiar) and further Zürich could possibly get n Inland center of trade.

2. Ideas. Swiss ideas are fairly good but also relies on a few stereotypes or misinterpretations. I list ideas I consider not fitting for Switzerland and why below

Spoiler: Swiss ideas

The Swiss Confederation

−10% Stability cost modifier
early on the confederacy weren't particularly stable, idea could remain but would then have to be moved backwards


Swiss Mercenaries

−25% Mercenary maintenance
Switzerland were famous for renting merceneries to other countries. They did not hire merceneries themselves.

Swiss Tolerance

+2 Tolerance of heretics
Actually religious disunity was a major factor of civil war and internal strife from the reformation all the way to the mid 19th century when the last civil war on relgious grounds occured

So my suggested changes starts as follow. Move the manpower in the traditions to a later idea slot and replace it with -10% shock damage received. It was the swiss armies skills at repelling mounted attacks that brought it to fame.

Replace Swiss stability with a modifier for trade (could be caravan power but maybe that's not worth it)

Replace swiss merceneries (or modify it) to be the manpower modifier. Could still be refering swiss merceneries, or the common border guard the cantons agreed on right now I can't find an internet source on that because I forgot the german name already -.-)

Replace swiss tolerance with Swiss Neutrality. I actually want this to be +1 dip rep AND hostile core creation (sue me but I like how that modifier balances the game). In the 17th century swiss merceneries were such a staple of european warfare that other countries agreed not to attack switzerland.

3. Reformed faith. I'm not sure about this, but I find the reformed faith to not be a particular tolerant faith. Actually it was very austere with early leaders of the faith such as Calvin and Zwingli being ruthless converters (Zwingli even died on the battlefield). Therefor I'd suggest changing the +2 tolerance of heretics to something else. There could of course be numerous alternatives. I'm thinking about either reduced idea cost or increased army morale.

4. Just as a "when would this happen" suggestion. A Burgundy patch, focusing on Burgundy and the low countries, but also dealing flavor to Switzerland, Savoy and Provence. If not as part of a larger west european or HRE patch

5. New achievment. A Clockwork Orange. As a reformed Switzerland, form the netherlands. (Because swiss are famous for clockwork, Netherlands for having the Orange royale house and the movie is about reforming a criminal)

Edit:
6. I'm also of the mind that it would be appropriate for Switzerland to start with soem army professionalism, as the swiss army were at this time fairly close to a standing army with strong routine thanks to it's constants wars both internally and externally.

Edit: I got the idea that reformed religion instead of tolerance should reduce corruption and/or interest per annum.

@Paland0 and @bebrst forum experts on issues of southern germany

 

[Martynios]

So how about boosting their infantry CA from 10% to 33%?

They had the world’s best infantry for the first quarter of the timeframe and even until 1821 were present in elite regiments throughout Europe.

 

[AirikrStrife]

So how about boosting their infantry CA from 10% to 33%?

They had the world’s best infantry for the first quarter of the timeframe and even until 1821 were present in elite regiments throughout Europe.

Because no one have that stong infantry CA in NI's. Swedis and prussian ideas got 20% and if you average out the combat ability throughout the ages I don't think switzerland should have better than Prussia.

Rather I would experiment with the shock damage reduction I have suggested. The swiss were masters in repelling cavalry armies, and since shock damage is more singificant in the early game it is a very strong tradition to start with but looses it's importance as times goes along. Boosting Swiss tradition to -25% shock damage is something one could experiment with.

 

[Martynios]

Because no one have that stong infantry CA in NI's. Swedis and prussian ideas got 20% and if you average out the combat ability throughout the ages I don't think switzerland should have better than Prussia.

Rather I would experiment with the shock damage reduction I have suggested. The swiss were masters in repelling cavalry armies, and since shock damage is more singificant in the early game it is a very strong tradition to start with but looses it's importance as times goes along. Boosting Swiss tradition to -25% shock damage is something one could experiment with.

That’s a good line of thought, but Swiss infantry used very offensive tactics, especially compared to contemporaries. Since CA is an offensive bonus, boosting damage dealt, I think it too would fit well. Plus, the Swiss were much more focused on infantry than basically anyone else. Perhaps the discipline bonus should be removed, so that Prussian infantry is still better in the late game? I think +33% inf CA and -25% or -20% shock damage taken would be a very good and fitting combination, without being overpowered due to no discipline.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I guess that Switzers were that good soldiers, but I feel that the game is not only modelling hard facts on how good troops really were, but averaging out over time and in relation to the power of said country. Switzerland, while having mercs all over, did not really participate in offensive wars after 1536 I think it was(?) While Prussia became a great power second half of the gamec and kept growing in power throughout. So in theory Switzers might be as good soldiers as prussians, but in power relation their army were never that strong, if you get my reasoning?

 

[Martynios]

I guess that Switzers were that good soldiers, but I feel that the game is not only modelling hard facts on how good troops really were, but averaging out over time and in relation to the power of said country. Switzerland, while having mercs all over, did not really participate in offensive wars after 1536 I think it was(?) While Prussia became a great power second half of the gamec and kept growing in power throughout. So in theory Switzers might be as good soldiers as prussians, but in power relation their army were never that strong, if you get my reasoning?

Yes they stopped expanding after the battle of Marignano (1515), and their “religious turmoil disaster”. But what I don’t get is why should this impact army quality? Prussia has things like -AE, which takes care of the expansion part. AFAIK, Nepal never became a major power, but they too have strong army quality NI’s.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Yes they stopped expanding after the battle of Marignano (1515), and their “religious turmoil disaster”. But what I don’t get is why should this impact army quality? Prussia has things like -AE, which takes care of the expansion part. AFAIK, Nepal never became a major power, but they too have strong army quality NI’s.

What I tried to explain is that NI's is in part designed based on the country how it played out in history, like GBR which had a very good army (redrocks) but only 5% discipline. Because devs want to focus on it's aspect as a colonial empire.
Which is good and can easily be played from. The point is that while swiss soldiers were among the best soldiers of the era, Switzerland was not a military powerhouse for most of the game.

Besides, it's not like I want to give Switzerland crappy military ideas. My proposal for NI includes:
10% infantry CA
-15% Shock damage reduction
+1 yearly Army tradition
5% Discipline

Sure it could be a bit different, but it's a strong set of military bonuses designed to especially give them a good starting army quality (remember they also start with 10% army professionalism).

 

[Martynios]

What I tried to explain is that NI's is in part designed based on the country how it played out in history, like GBR which had a very good army (redrocks) but only 5% discipline. Because devs want to focus on it's aspect as a colonial empire.
Which is good and can easily be played from. The point is that while swiss soldiers were among the best soldiers of the era, Switzerland was not a military powerhouse for most of the game.

Besides, it's not like I want to give Switzerland crappy military ideas. My proposal for NI includes:
10% infantry CA
-15% Shock damage reduction
+1 yearly Army tradition
5% Discipline

Sure it could be a bit different, but it's a strong set of military bonuses designed to especially give them a good starting army quality (remember they also start with 10% army professionalism).

English/British army was crap lol, 5% discipline gives it too much credit.

Switzerland was definitely a military powerhouse compared to its development, and NI’s exist to do justice to that sort of thing.

I don’t see why your proposal would make more sense than mine.
Discipline? This is a late game bonus, while Switzerland should be stronger in the early game than in the late game. Plus, why should Swiss cavalry and artillery be boosted?
Army tradition? I never read about any famed Swiss general, their strength was in the common soldiers not the leadership.

 

[Louis XI]

For the starting military tradition, in order to increase chance this proposal is looked at, I guess you'd have to propose another alternative bonus (same for the estates by the way), given the DLC politics, @AirikrStrife.

And for the ideas of governement, I don't know if it could be done, but maybe adding a kind of specific permanent coalition, to prevent intervention from the outside in unification, while allowing for possible internal fight (which would be interrupted, maybe with an armistice mechanic added, when one member is attacked from the outside, since obviously player couldn't attack outside of the confederation while in internal war within the confederation). This might be done maybe for some big rebellions as well (those where rebels would realistically have interrupted their fight with the country if a foreign invader had shown up, e.g the french religious war, or other war where rebels have national ambitions (pretendant to the throne probably, but not peasant revolts).