• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
I recently read a book on swiss history (in swedish so can't give references) and one of the most striking things then studying a country/region in more depths is how often stereotypes tricks you (and sometimes even PDX) into getting a skewd image. For me one of the most notable examples in game is Tibet, whose ideas are a modern western stereotype of Tibet and completly unaware of how Tibet actually was. But enough about Tibet and on for Switzerland

There has already been good suggestion about how to improve the swiss map, https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/alpine-region-suggestions.1018886/ by @Felipe el Piadoso which points out new possible provinces in the area.

Still with these mapchanges Switzerlan is in the 15th century an extremely complex area. It's not until the turn of the century Switzerland becomes a fairly politically stable entity.
To note some examples of discrepencies in the set up. Austria still controls significant territories in Switzerland, the so called Thurgau which is not ceded until 1460. S:t Gallen and surrounding lands constituted several different entities with various degrees of association to the Swiss.
Graubünden could merit being an independent state in close relation with swtizerland.
A significant area of Valais were already independent form Savoy and in association with the swiss.
There was a civil war in the confederacy with Zürich having been expelled and fighting the rest of the confederacy.

But my main focus was to discuss ideas and other flavor of Switzerland to how it looks in game compared to how it looks in game.

1. Swiss was to a high degree a trade state. The very origin of the Swiss confederacy lies in the transalpine trade, the original states gained reichimmediacy to guarantee the free trade through the alps and the important S.t Gotthards pass. Later cities such as Zürich and Bern were importanttrade cities.
I suggest Waldstätte get's a modifier called "Gotthard pass" granting +5 to trade an possibly a defensive bonus (i.e. one of following reduced enemy movement speed, increased enemy attrition, increased defensivness or similiar) and further Zürich could possibly get n Inland center of trade.

2. Ideas. Swiss ideas are fairly good but also relies on a few stereotypes or misinterpretations. I list ideas I consider not fitting for Switzerland and why below
The Swiss Confederation

−10%
Stability cost modifier
early on the confederacy weren't particularly stable, idea could remain but would then have to be moved backwards


Swiss Mercenaries

−25% Mercenary maintenance
Switzerland were famous for renting merceneries to other countries. They did not hire merceneries themselves.

Swiss Tolerance

+2 Tolerance of heretics
Actually religious disunity was a major factor of civil war and internal strife from the reformation all the way to the mid 19th century when the last civil war on relgious grounds occured

So my suggested changes starts as follow. Move the manpower in the traditions to a later idea slot and replace it with -10% shock damage received. It was the swiss armies skills at repelling mounted attacks that brought it to fame.

Replace Swiss stability with a modifier for trade (could be caravan power but maybe that's not worth it)

Replace swiss merceneries (or modify it) to be the manpower modifier. Could still be refering swiss merceneries, or the common border guard the cantons agreed on right now I can't find an internet source on that because I forgot the german name already -.-)

Replace swiss tolerance with Swiss Neutrality. I actually want this to be +1 dip rep AND hostile core creation (sue me but I like how that modifier balances the game). In the 17th century swiss merceneries were such a staple of european warfare that other countries agreed not to attack switzerland.
3. Reformed faith. I'm not sure about this, but I find the reformed faith to not be a particular tolerant faith. Actually it was very austere with early leaders of the faith such as Calvin and Zwingli being ruthless converters (Zwingli even died on the battlefield). Therefor I'd suggest changing the +2 tolerance of heretics to something else. There could of course be numerous alternatives. I'm thinking about either reduced idea cost or increased army morale.

4. Just as a "when would this happen" suggestion. A Burgundy patch, focusing on Burgundy and the low countries, but also dealing flavor to Switzerland, Savoy and Provence. If not as part of a larger west european or HRE patch

5. New achievment. A Clockwork Orange. As a reformed Switzerland, form the netherlands. (Because swiss are famous for clockwork, Netherlands for having the Orange royale house and the movie is about reforming a criminal)

Edit:
6. I'm also of the mind that it would be appropriate for Switzerland to start with soem army professionalism, as the swiss army were at this time fairly close to a standing army with strong routine thanks to it's constants wars both internally and externally.

Edit: I got the idea that reformed religion instead of tolerance should reduce corruption and/or interest per annum.

@Paland0 and @bebrst forum experts on issues of southern germany
 
Last edited:

Palando

Barrington Celticus
42 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.126
29
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
I have to agree that Switzerland is one of those ignored tags amidst Europe. The complex situation of the Swiss Confederation warrants a unique government form. Like you already mentioned Switzerland wasn't centralised.

I have made a suggestion which would represent every Swiss province as an own entity. For a successful game, the player/AI would need to appease these through local actions (buildings, development, ...). Heretic provinces would become rebellious (if humanist ideas weren't taken).

Another suggestion, I read some time ago, tried to model this confederation through various different tags playing out a bit like a Japan minigame.


Regarding the changes to the NIs:
I think the misconception of a religious tolerance was created by catholicism and calvinism being coexistent. Like you pointed out, confessional wars between the two groups existed until the early 18th century. A religious disaster for the Swiss would be also a nice addition.
The neutrality would also fit better as they even had treaties with France to guarantee their independence.
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
Definitly a unique government would be merited for switzerland. I think once of the issues with representing every province is that even then every province can represent more than one Canton (Waldstätte i 4 I believe, though they were politically close enough to warrant this) but then Graubünden and the majority of the S:t Gallen area weren't even part of the confederacy, but associates. And to that, how do you model the expansion of the confederacy?

Essentially the small size of Switzerland makes it hard to justify the kind of federal country like Japan that it should have been

I think the misconception of a religious tolerance was created by catholicism and calvinism being coexistent. Like you pointed out, confessional wars between the two groups existed until the early 18th century
Actually the last one was in the 1850's though it was a minor one.
 
Last edited:

Palando

Barrington Celticus
42 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.126
29
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Definitly a unique government would be merited for switzerland. I think once of the issues with representing every province is that even then every province can represent more than one Canton (Waldstätte i 4 I believe, though they were politically close enough to warrant this) but then Graubünden and the majority of the S:t Gallen area weren't even part of the confederacy, but associates. And to that, how do you model the expansion of the confederacy?

Essentially the small size of Switzerland makes it hard to justify the kind of federal country like Japan that it should have been
I would say those are all gameplay concessions. Differentiating between associated and proper members might make the system too complicated. Associates and the Confederacy had a common foreign policy, trade policy and had to assist militarily. Representing them as Marches/high autonomy provinces might be a possible way, however e.g. Graubünden joined only in 1497/99. This makes it all quite complex.
Here a map with all the join dates to this complex situation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png

Actually the last one was in the 1850's though it was a minor one.
Well, I didn't mention that war since it is out of the game's time frame. The point I wanted to make is that only a century without religious strife isn't enough to warrant a tolerance idea.
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
Talking about a unique swiss government it seems that people focus on the mercenery aspect of Switzerland, which is natural but once again the swiss themselves weren't a country focused on hiring merceneries, but renting them out. A better modifier for a swiss governemnt would be improvments to renting out condottieri (increased morale or disciplin and size of condottieris for example).

That map also shows what I'm talking about with Vallis, most of the Vallis territories were independent but with close relationship to the Swiss
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
If you read my whole post, I don't think giving Switzerland any mercenery bonuses is the right thing to do as the swiss (afaik) didn't hire foreign merceneries.
I think combining 10% infantry combat ability (or higher) with -10% shock damage in traditions and maybe a small professionalism level at start will give the swiss the right edge to be the emerging great power they were during the 15th century up until the battle of Marignano in 1515.
 
Swiss government

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
So I'm trying to work a bit on a model for a unique swiss government. As said before by paland, it could be really complex and in depths representing all the different cantons, or it can be less complicated but still designed to be a unique playing experience. This is thus not a finished designed government but ideas of what ways it can take. (This might to some extent modify some of the ideas in OP so will edit it soon if things are fleshed out a bit better)

So first of I have designed a swiss government loosely on a trade republic (no trade leagues, though that could have worked really well to imitate the structure of the swiss government, but there simply isn't enough provinces to make that viable, I believe).

Base goverment modifiers:
  • -5 Years of separatism
  • +10% Production efficiency

  • +1 Number of states
  • -30 Maximum absolutism
Essentially the same theyhave now as administrative republic (but fewer states) and I leave one open because I can't decide if I want to go with a morale boost, or with extra caravan power, or manpower bonus and it will also depend partly on what modifiers will be used for the swss factions.

So Switzerland will have factions instead of estates (definitly more suitable). I have a lot of ideas on how this can be done, since reality can be highely complex compared to how it will be tried to represent. For example I definitly want a peasants faction for switzerland, which I guess would be the military faction, with aristocrats being the administrative and burghers/traders the diplomatic. But I could imagine having four factions aswell (with guilds, but then the factions would be less clearly divided between different mana groups)

Peasants could have the following modifers:
+10% manpower
+5% morale
increased autonomy or increased stability cost

Aristocrats could have:
-10% build cost
-10% army maintainance
-10% caravan power

Burghers could have:
+10% global trade power
reduced interest per annum
-5% national tax modifier

These are just some suggestions, obviously almost endless combinations could be tried out.

Like merchant republic the swiss republic get's a penalty for having over 20 states.

Ideally Switzerland wouldn't elect leaders, but just have a permanent Tagsatzung. Which starts at say 2/2/2 and then every second year, they get an "election event" which increases one stats and decreases another (creating a different game of focus than normal republics have)

If the Swiss government goes to 0 republican tradition, instead of becoming a republican dictatorship, it turns into another government based on which faction is in power (noble republic for aristocracy, peasant republic for peasants and aministrative republic for burghers)

So the last special mechanic is the bonuses to condottieri. Switzerland is allowed a higher ratio of condottieri to rent and rented swiss condottieri get's +5% discipline.



I think this is a good start for a swiss republic, it needs some teaking and I'm happy for all feedback, and once it is a bit more polished I'll put it up in OP properly structured.
 

Palando

Barrington Celticus
42 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.126
29
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Like merchant republic the swiss republic get's a penalty for having over 20 states.
I would suggest to have an autonomy change penalty instead of an RT penalty. In reality, the more member states they had, the harder it became to come to an agreement in the Tagsatzung. Absolutism could also increase the number of provinces without penalty (Switzerland was also quite absolutistic back then in contrast to Rousseau's view).
Ideally Switzerland wouldn't elect leaders, but just have a permanent Tagsatzung. Which starts at say 2/2/2 and then every second year, they get an "election event" which increases one stats and decreases another (creating a different game of focus than normal republics have)

If the Swiss government goes to 0 republican tradition, instead of becoming a republican dictatorship, it turns into another government based on which faction is in power (noble republic for aristocracy, peasant republic for peasants and aministrative republic for burghers)
How would the RT decrease then?
Personally, your system seems a bit frustrating to me, and I'm also no fan of the factions system.
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
I would suggest to have an autonomy change penalty instead of an RT penalty. In reality, the more member states they had, the harder it became to come to an agreement in the Tagsatzung.
I think it has to be RT for gameplay reason, but I get your logic, if it's significant enough it could work, forcing the central government to decrease autonomy and thus get more revolts.

Absolutism could also increase the number of provinces without penalty (Switzerland was also quite absolutistic back then in contrast to Rousseau's view).
Yes I thought about this, but since absolutism in game is mostly about administrative efficiency I didn't really think about it as very relevant for Switzerland, but there could be a special event for Switzerland to increase max absolutism (like there are for Prussia)

How would the RT decrease then?
Good point, I don't have a definitive answer, but it could be based on if the Tagsatzung becomes unbalanced, I haven't done the numbers so I don't know how well this would work.

Personally, your system seems a bit frustrating to me, and I'm also no fan of the factions system.
First I want to know what you think about this from a historical POW.
I find the estate system not at all appropriate for Switzerland which were a confederation of originally independent states and even the aristocracy were largely urban (more like patricians than feudal nobility). Due to switzerlands origin as a peasant alliance (the urkantonen or waldstätten) having them represented is very relevant. Thus making the faction system ideal.
And it works well with the different interests of the swiss cantons with some being rural, some aristocracy ruled cities and some burgher republics. Instead of getting factions/estates/subjects representing the individual cantons for such a small area the faction system does it well.

The election system is also more representative of how Switzerland worked. SInce it never elected a leader and were a confederacy between members ruled in very different ways. Maybe the way it works could be modified to be more interesting.


All in all I'm aiming at making a system more accurate for Switzerland (and thus more unique as Switzerland were a unique state among the europeans)

If the faction system inherently isn't that popular, I'd rather suggest improving it.

Any thoughts on balance andm odifiers for the government and estates?
 

bebrst

First Lieutenant
53 Badges
Dec 10, 2015
238
12
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
@AirikrStrife, thanks for your kind words #ExpertofSouthernGermany ;)
I was thinking of some unique government system for Switzerland too, but had not yet the chance to fully come up with a coherent idea.
The basic i worked out so far would be based on autonomy. The idea being that the Eidgenossenschaft has to find a balance between a certain degree of centralization and enough autonomy for its members. It could be a lasting from

0 autonomy = centralized state
- heavy punishments on stability and a lot of local unrest and thrive for more autonomy, low moral of armies (fighting for a tyrannical overlord) low religious tolerance (attempts to enforce state religion)
+ high income (centralized tax income) , high discipline (professional national army)

50 autonomy = "stable/balanced Eidgenossenschaft"
- medium income, xxx
+ more stability (good balance between autonomy and control) , normal manpower (as if in normal state without autonomy) , normal income, low local unrest, slightly increased moral of armies (fighting for home and the fatherland)

100 autonomy = independent Kantone
- low income, high risk of independence rebellions, lower manpower (fighting wars of others)
+ high religious tolerance (coexistence), high morale of armies (fighting for your home region)


It is just a first idea and not really thought through yet. Would need a lot of adjusting and I'm not sure if it is even a good concept to implement. Not really happy with all the effects yet either.
The main idea behind it would be to implement a mechanism which allows to show the high autonomy of Swiss states without getting punished for it. Rather the risk of too much centralization, or the risk of a breaking apart of the Eidgenossenschaft should be what the country gets punished for. The effects of autonomy for Swiss provinces might have to be adjusted to make it work and decisions and actions would either increase or lower the autonomy.

As I said, just an idea, but please feel free to work on it if you think it has potential ;)

In addition, I would suggest that Switzerland gets a high foreign coring cost on their territory (rebellious and autonomous mountain people) , they need more manpower (as they mobilized big parts of the society, not only the standing army), and the mercenaries bonus for Switzerland doesn't make sense as they provided the famous Reisläufer, the Swiss guard etc. As was proposed in another thread, a new merc system could help here, having a regional mercenary pool which would allow countries like Switzerland to give manpower to it in return for money and prestige. But that might be a topic for another time :)
 
Last edited:

Palando

Barrington Celticus
42 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.126
29
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
I think it has to be RT for gameplay reason, but I get your logic, if it's significant enough it could work, forcing the central government to decrease autonomy and thus get more revolts.
During war times, the Swiss autonomy would then increase (if no other boni apply). Let's say that from 10 provinces upwards every additional province increases your autonomy change by 0.005. In this case, 20 provinces would lead to an autonomy increase of 0.05, i.e. for every year waging a war you would need to wait half a year to decrease the autonomy.


First I want to know what you think about this from a historical POW.
I find the estate system not at all appropriate for Switzerland which were a confederation of originally independent states and even the aristocracy were largely urban (more like patricians than feudal nobility). Due to switzerlands origin as a peasant alliance (the urkantonen or waldstätten) having them represented is very relevant. Thus making the faction system ideal.
And it works well with the different interests of the swiss cantons with some being rural, some aristocracy ruled cities and some burgher republics. Instead of getting factions/estates/subjects representing the individual cantons for such a small area the faction system does it well.

The election system is also more representative of how Switzerland worked. SInce it never elected a leader and were a confederacy between members ruled in very different ways. Maybe the way it works could be modified to be more interesting.


All in all I'm aiming at making a system more accurate for Switzerland (and thus more unique as Switzerland were a unique state among the europeans)

If the faction system inherently isn't that popular, I'd rather suggest improving it.

Any thoughts on balance andm odifiers for the government and estates?
Surely, it is better than at the moment but I still miss something regarding religious strife.

The 2/2/2 are comparable to the 4/1/1 of regular republics. Just reshuffling from one category to another would make that a bit weak, as regular republics can just sacrifice RT for a higher monarch point generation.


Although, I made the following suggestion for Genoa, but maybe it might inspire (basically replace doge with Tagsatzung):
To represent this I would make the doge powerless (low stats as two years is a short time to have actual influence) and the monarch point generation would be handled through a decision every two years. Starting with 100 monarch points in a chosen category, the gain increases by 25 with every election up to 200 (100/125/150/175/200), but with a republican tradition cost of 0/0/5/5/10. If the council would only focus on one category (A), the doge could have a deacrease in that category (A) and an increase in the neglected one, as the doge could fill that power vacuum. The average monarch power generation (through this decisions alone) would be ~4/5/6/7/8 making it the most powerful government form if one needs only one category of monarch points. The disadvantage is that in total one doesn't have that many monarch points like a generic republic and has to sacrifice a lot of republican tradition.
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
I'm not sure if that would work really, it work's with Japan because it's big and isolated. Switzerland at game start is 4 provinces, even adding 2-3 (most likely Aargau which wold belong to Bern, Fribour which would be independent and makig Valais an independent member aswell) is not sure to work.

The 2/2/2 are comparable to the 4/1/1 of regular republics. Just reshuffling from one category to another would make that a bit weak, as regular republics can just sacrifice RT for a higher monarch point generation.
ANd that's how smart I am xd I wasn't thinking on the maths, it should have been gain 2 loose 1. Nut maybe that won't work either. Anyway my main wish is for Switzerland to be without a leader (though this does remove a free general) because that's how switzerland worked. Maybe it won't work though.
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
I could see extra manpower as a goverment modifier, and then have the swiss merceneries idea be army tradition as the merceneries contributed to having a strong "tradition" of war.

It is true as theonlychris points out in his thread that switzerland should be able to pull punches with Austra and Burgundy, but this david and goliat kind of scenarios, of which there are many of in history, is not really integrated in EUIV in a good way. One of the problems is how easy it is to build, move and maintain large armies compared to actual history in 1444. I mean the Austrians never marched 40 000 men into Switzerland during the wars. Likewise the army strength Burgundy moved against the swiss was much smaller than in game burgundy with PU swarm will immediately bring to battle

My idea of having swiss traditions be infantry combat ability with reduced shock damage, would make them a bit more formible defender on their mountainous home turf. I think their traditions will be better then than the +10 morale austria and burgundy has.
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
Surely, it is better than at the moment but I still miss something regarding religious strife.
I think that should be through events etc and removing the tolerance idea and reformed bonus. Still, usually game doesn't become that realistic just because that. But anyway Switzerland is in dire need of more events. It only has one event about Paracelsus.
 

Palando

Barrington Celticus
42 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.126
29
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
I'm not sure if that would work really, it work's with Japan because it's big and isolated. Switzerland at game start is 4 provinces, even adding 2-3 (most likely Aargau which wold belong to Bern, Fribour which would be independent and makig Valais an independent member aswell) is not sure to work.
As far as I'm concerned the Swiss provinces are already quite small. I have to agree that a Japan like system most likely wouldn't work. The tags would battle over who is the overlord (=Swiss Confederation). A war between the member states would most likely lead to a foreign invasion making it incredibly hard to unify the Swiss Confederation.

I think that should be through events etc and removing the tolerance idea and reformed bonus. Still, usually game doesn't become that realistic just because that. But anyway Switzerland is in dire need of more events. It only has one event about Paracelsus.
I didn't know that they have an event concerning Paracelsus. I can't remember ever having that one fire during my playthrough. I thought that they only have the Swiss Guard event?
 

AirikrStrife

Bergakungen
19 Badges
Jul 30, 2010
1.807
742
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
#Paracelsus
country_event = {
id = flavor_swi.1
title = flavor_swi.1.t
desc = flavor_swi.1.d
picture = ADVISOR_eventPicture
fire_only_once = yes
trigger = {
OR = {
capital_scope = {
region = south_german_region
}
tag = VEN
tag = SWI
}
is_year = 1515
NOT = { is_year = 1541 }
}
mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 78
modifier = {
factor = 0.95
tag = SWI
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.9
tag = HAB
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.8
owns = 1869 #Zürich
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.8
owns = 134 #Vienna
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.8
tag = VEN
}
}
option = {
name = "flavor_swi.1.a"
define_advisor = {
type = natural_scientist
name = "Paracelsus"
culture = swiss
discount = yes
skill = 2
}
}
}

It's the only event in the swiss flavor event text. But like the pope asks for swiss guard, there might be some more out there under other categories. Don't remember any though in my recent Switzerlake run.

Having a bunch of new events for Switzerland would be great.