Ibn Battuta's World - history+gameplay improvement

[Cyrahzax]

Hi! Just started running a game with this after using the map mod for a while, and I really like the ideas here. I do have a few questions and comments though:

• With the changes to culture, what does 'Maghreb' represent now? Sicily looks like its heartland, but some North African rulers have it too (like the Khourasanids of 1066 Tunis, who I was playing initially).
• I can understand you wanting to keep the tribes tribal, but I think they need to be beefed up in other ways too. Even before they start switching to Iqta the coastal lords are easily able to defeat them. As an OPM vassal, I took Kairouan from the tribe that controlled it without too much trouble, and that was rule, not the exception: the tribes get pushed back across North Africa.
• Buffing the tribes somehow may also solve the problem of the Fatimids/Tulunids always becoming a juggernaut: instead of being speedbumps they should be able to seriously challenge their grip on power.

That's it for now, keep up the good work! I'm looking forward to updates.

 

[elvain]

Hi! Just started running a game with this after using the map mod for a while, and I really like the ideas here. I do have a few questions and comments though:

• With the changes to culture, what does 'Maghreb' represent now? Sicily looks like its heartland, but some North African rulers have it too (like the Khourasanids of 1066 Tunis, who I was playing initially).
• I can understand you wanting to keep the tribes tribal, but I think they need to be beefed up in other ways too. Even before they start switching to Iqta the coastal lords are easily able to defeat them. As an OPM vassal, I took Kairouan from the tribe that controlled it without too much trouble, and that was rule, not the exception: the tribes get pushed back across North Africa.
• Buffing the tribes somehow may also solve the problem of the Fatimids/Tulunids always becoming a juggernaut: instead of being speedbumps they should be able to seriously challenge their grip on power.

That's it for now, keep up the good work! I'm looking forward to updates.

Thanks for your feedback. It is very appreciated. I'm really glad for any input since without feedback I can only rely on my own tests.

First the Maghrebi culture - it is supposed to represent generally Arabized people west of Egypt who are not nomads (Nomadic Arabs are always and everywhere Bedouin). They are in fact all (or virtualy all) pre-Hilalian Arabic dynasties.
I definitely might have forgotten some Berbers among them or as well forgot to convert others into this culture, so if anything is wrong, let me know.

As for buffing the tribes you are right that they should be strenghtened even more. I try to limit the buff mainly to certain cultures and their natural conditions.
I have a few ideas, but many of them are beyond my modding skills, so if you have any ideas, don't hesitate to post then, they might end up being easier to be implemented.
I'm just very careful about buffing tribals in general, since it could cause disbalance elswhere.

Perhaps I could give these tribal cuktures more tribsl buildings than just one...

 

[omega20056]

Thanks for your feedback. It is very appreciated. I'm really glad for any input since without feedback I can only rely on my own tests.

First the Maghrebi culture - it is supposed to represent generally Arabized people west of Egypt who are not nomads (Nomadic Arabs are always and everywhere Bedouin). They are in fact all (or virtualy all) pre-Hilalian Arabic dynasties.
I definitely might have forgotten some Berbers among them or as well forgot to convert others into this culture, so if anything is wrong, let me know.

As for buffing the tribes you are right that they should be strenghtened even more. I try to limit the buff mainly to certain cultures and their natural conditions.
I have a few ideas, but many of them are beyond my modding skills, so if you have any ideas, don't hesitate to post then, they might end up being easier to be implemented.
I'm just very careful about buffing tribals in general, since it could cause disbalance elswhere.

Perhaps I could give these tribal cuktures more tribsl buildings than just one...

What are your ideas for buffing tribes? Because I've been considering adding a system that grants all tribal counts a reinforcing event stack of 2,000 men each, with a top liege (Such as the Avar khan) getting a horde of 4,000 men.

 

[xXConquerorXx]

On the tribes thing, what about limiting conquest of tribal areas by settled polities. Realisticly, settled realms rarely exercised much direct control over tribal areas, so maybe limiting then to estabilish tributaries over them, it would allow tribal tributaries to eventually revolt and break free more easily, and make Egytp and Africa less of a juggernaut.

 

[Cyrahzax]

Ok, here are a few ideas: the tribes should get defensive attrition, their tribal holdings should be more built up, and the major ones (mainly Fatamid/Tulunid vassals) should get event troops.

Would there be any way to stop the tribes from trying to protect Sicily too? They lose a lot of men for nothing joining those holy wars.

 

[elvain]

Thanks all for your ideas.

On the tribes thing, what about limiting conquest of tribal areas by settled polities. Realisticly, settled realms rarely exercised much direct control over tribal areas, so maybe limiting then to estabilish tributaries over them, it would allow tribal tributaries to eventually revolt and break free more easily, and make Egytp and Africa less of a juggernaut.

This sounds like a good idea. I thought about blocking Holy wars against tribals so that Egypt would be forced to do county conquests only. However we need to realize that the desert tribals are the same as tribals in Europe or West Africa. Blocking de-jure duchy wars or any other CBs than tributary would also block feudal lords from DoWing tribals Slavs or Balts, which would be ahistorical, European feudals did expand into tribal lands and feudal muslim dynasties did fight/attack tribes in attempts to conquer and eliminate them, especially in Syria and northern Mesopotamia. The same happened to Hammadids or Zirids who tried to retake their lost lands, so bloocking all CBs except 'make tributary' would be little ahistorica.

What are your ideas for buffing tribes? Because I've been considering adding a system that grants all tribal counts a reinforcing event stack of 2,000 men each, with a top liege (Such as the Avar khan) getting a horde of 4,000 men.

Ok, here are a few ideas: the tribes should get defensive attrition, their tribal holdings should be more built up, and the major ones (mainly Fatamid/Tulunid vassals) should get event troops.

Would there be any way to stop the tribes from trying to protect Sicily too? They lose a lot of men for nothing joining those holy wars.

- defensive attrition - good idea, but...
1) AFAIK it is defined by religion and not government type
2) if it would be possible for tribal government, wouldn't it make all European defensive pagans even stronger in their defensive wars? It would require larg changes in pagan defensiveness.
But I like the idea. I wish there was a possibility to define attrition by culture and terrain - that would solve many problems.

- building tribal holdings up - good point and the one I'm actually able to do. I have already given some specific cultures (the ones in question in this mod) a boost of 210-275 men per tribal desert province (tribal holding). I think it is better than giving them event troops, since event troops don't suffer attrition and I think that they should only have advantage in certain areas/terrain (therefore I give them predominantly camel cavalry).
By building up you mean more developed in general (more buldings being more advanced), or more buldings available (I would agree, but I can't think of many such buildings) or combination of both?

- event troops - This might apply to the main forces of Hilalian expansion, but to be honest, I'm very sceptical when it comes to event troops. I know Paradox used them to boost some particular entites, but from good old days in SWMH team I don't support event troops because they tend to do more harm than to serve good. I can't prevent these event troops to be used against Christians in Nubia who usualy wage many wars against these tribes too, etc.

But I think that the combination of the latter 2 suggestions could work

 

[BeyondExpectation]

- defensive attrition - good idea, but...
1) AFAIK it is defined by religion and not government type

One of the game options is to make pagan attrition tribal only, so it can be defined by government type.

 

[xXConquerorXx]

Thanks all for your ideas.

This sounds like a good idea. I thought about blocking Holy wars against tribals so that Egypt would be forced to do county conquests only. However we need to realize that the desert tribals are the same as tribals in Europe or West Africa. Blocking de-jure duchy wars or any other CBs than tributary would also block feudal lords from DoWing tribals Slavs or Balts, which would be ahistorical, European feudals did expand into tribal lands and feudal muslim dynasties did fight/attack tribes in attempts to conquer and eliminate them, especially in Syria and northern Mesopotamia. The same happened to Hammadids or Zirids who tried to retake their lost lands, so bloocking all CBs except 'make tributary' would be little ahistorica.

Yes, thats true. Though most of these expansions took place around and after the Crusades, so it would make sense to block holy wars until either Crusades or Jihads are unlocked. As for de-jure, yes, it should be kept, same with county conquest, that would slow conquest of tribal areas, but not eliminate it entirely, and also give more chances for the tribal realms to hold on.

 

[elvain]

What are your ideas for buffing tribes? Because I've been considering adding a system that grants all tribal counts a reinforcing event stack of 2,000 men each, with a top liege (Such as the Avar khan) getting a horde of 4,000 men.

So, here some more ideas, though some of them were already mentioned

• More buildings for tribals - this can be easily done. One right up in my mind is an oasis (though I'd prefer it to be a special settlement typical for desert tribes), which could increase both military and economy of the tribe. Since this is something more fitting to a settlement rather than building, there could be other buildings which would require certain levels of oasis being developed (original oasis would, like most tribal buildings, cost piety, further levels and its dependencies should cost gold instead). The other buildings could be palm grove (increasing retinue capacity and income), karavanserai (increasing income and tiny bit of camel cavalry), oases qasbah/castle/citadel bringing light infantry and camel cavalry)
• Then I thought about improving the effects of Tribal organization law. Perhaps it could unlock some events or event chains or decisions which could make the tribal gameplay little more interesting
• Then I thought about interactions of Tribal organization or tribal government in general with decadence, but here it gets to more complicated area which is definitely beyond my skills. For instance being tribal should weaken the effects of decadence (higher levels of Tribal Organization would reduce it only a little, lower levels would reduce it little more), raiding should reduce decadence (for tribals)
• Then there are some more ideas in this thread.
  
• Last possibility is to edit the Horde mechanic into something which would culturaly fit the desert tribes: edit the horde buildings so that in the desert they are called differently, rename all the events etc. so they would be adapted to the desert tribal environment. That would be lot of work and I'm not sure if it's doable at all. All I know is that I don't have the time nor skill to do it.

Yes, thats true. Though most of these expansions took place around and after the Crusades, so it would make sense to block holy wars until either Crusades or Jihads are unlocked. As for de-jure, yes, it should be kept, same with county conquest, that would slow conquest of tribal areas, but not eliminate it entirely, and also give more chances for the tribal realms to hold on.

Well, but wouldn't locking holy wars until the Crusades or Jihads deny the purpouse of Holy wars, which are the minor tool for religiously motivated wars before crusades or jihads? I would just prefer to be very cautious. There were many religious wars all around the CK2 map long before crusades. After all the muslim conquest of Central Asia, expansion of Islam into India, the wars of the Franks against the Saxons, expansion of Great Moravia - all these happened centuries before the 1st crusade and I would not like to disable these things happen. Thus I think that increasing the initial strength of tribals is still a little better way. The main question is how to balance it so they aren't overpowered. After all, there was really a large difference between European tribals and tribal nomads of the Steppe and the desert. The steppe got its mechanics, but

 

[CaptainPolyp]

Hello Elvain, hello everyone,

So, just a small question. Would the upcoming feature about offmap empires (or more generally, offmap powers) be usable for simulating the interaction between the Iqta and tribal rulers of Africa and Arabia, and the Berber and Arabic nomadic tribes (as offmap powers). Maybe this is a little too soon as so few things were revealed yet, but I wanted to bring up the subject.

If it fits best with another of your threads, don't hesitate to move, reproduce or just respond to this post in the more adequate thread. (for instance the Qabila thread... but I guessed that the thread was a more ambitious dlc proposition than this kind of small abstract fix)

 

[elvain]

Hello Elvain, hello everyone,

So, just a small question. Would the upcoming feature about offmap empires (or more generally, offmap powers) be usable for simulating the interaction between the Iqta and tribal rulers of Africa and Arabia, and the Berber and Arabic nomadic tribes (as offmap powers). Maybe this is a little too soon as so few things were revealed yet, but I wanted to bring up the subject.

If it fits best with another of your threads, don't hesitate to move, reproduce or just respond to this post in the more adequate thread. (for instance the Qabila thread... but I guessed that the thread was a more ambitious dlc proposition than this kind of small abstract fix)

Thanks for a good point.

It sounds like a good idea, in theory, that's for sure. But right now we know too little about this feature. If it would be moddable so there are numerous such off-map entities, that could indeed serve as a tool for Saharan tribes. It certainly belongs more here than anywhere else, since the Qabila thread is about DLC ideas and that keeps a wish that something might in the future be done with the desert tribes which, unlike China, are on the map and can be represented better than by this mechanic.

But for more details and possibilites we need more info about the mechanic itself from Paradox.

Frankly, I am currently at a stage where it is possible that I won't be able to get to the forums and do modding at all - and in that case I wanted to inform that if I happen to be offline for over 2-3 weeks and won't be able to update the mod(s), anyone can maintain what he would find necessary without my later approval.
I don't say I'm giving up. I still have some (many) plans with this mod, but as my RL stands now, the possibility of me not getting back to modding without prior notice is not impossible. Just that

 

[CaptainPolyp]

We'll see how the new system work then... I can't mod so I will not be able to help much unfortunately. I guess this is RL first, video games next (and rest comes before work on mods too ^^).

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

What you could do is to only allow subjugation or tributary CBs against Arabic (as well as East African/Altaic?) tribals, and forbid revocation of their tribal titles. I'm not sure if a ruler's individual titles are distinguished by government type, but if not you might still be able to distinguish things at the county level, using is_capital and holding_type. This way, you can integrate Arabic tribals into your realm, but they'll permanently remain tribal.

For event troops, you could make it cheaper to raise a tribal army during a defensive war. There's also the "raise zealots" decision for certain religions in HIP, which could be used on the cheap by Muslim tribals in defensive religious wars.

 

[Farfour]

Is this still being developed? If it is, could someone direct me to the download? Thanks.

 

[elvain]

I have always believed you could download it via steam workshop...

bu unfortunately I don't have capacities to maintain the mod, so since Jade Dragon it is outdated