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Every game has 'mana'. Stellaris has energy, food and minerals. CK2 has gold, piety and prestige (but mostly gold). Other strategy games not just from paradox will have 'mana'. The ones that don't are the boring, repetitive ones. Whether that 'mana' is called gold, adm points, food, cash, ducats, minerals, SP, Iron, Silver, Bronze, 'mana' in the end is a resource, and all games have resources. to be used for researching technology or improving your cities/countries/empires. Rather than endlessly complaining, why not actually try and get the system changed by suggesting alternatives to the devs?

EDIT: Like this:
How is gold, prestige and piety mana? Ypu get gold by having an economy, loyal vassals that pay you taxes and asking loans, and you spend it on things that require you money, and prestige ypu get by well, being worthy of prestige, you can barely spend it and has a passive impact on things, likegiving you opinion boni
 
Remember when they made people more productive via diplomacy?Remember how administration made cities way larger and made everyone pay their taxes indefinetely?Or how militairy made people pay war taxes? Remember how you could ask the burghers to give you their diplomatic power? :^)

About the same as I remember spending piety in order to secretly convert from the religion I was supposedly pious of to a different religion and keep it hidden ;)

They are all abstractions. Some I like more than others, and I am not a great fan of random stats to leaders in EU4 either. But the points themselves are OK and seriously come on I:R has more management of leaders. So. I am content.
 
It's used for things that are not supposed to be in a ruler's control.
Let's look at EU4:
  • A ruler can use his skill to develop every single piece of land in his realm without investing capital. This also applies to every type of government.
  • A ruler can use his skill to improve technology at a moment's notice.
  • Ruler skill is used to hire generals. No, not to determine their quality to represent an incompetent ruler hiring his family as generals despite they suck at war.
  • Ruler's qualification is also needed for national ideas, which are very similar to technology, just a specialisation of it.
Now let's see the new game Imperator:Rome
  • Used for inventions
  • Used to promote and move pops
  • Used to convert pops
  • Used to make trade routes
The entire mana system has one purpose and one purpose only. It's there so the player can feel the immediate effects of his actions. Peck a button, get some corn.

Your points against how it works in EU4 are not at all points against mana points but rather you not liking the way they are implemented. A system could be designed just as easily to passively use mana or reorganize the relationship between mana and money. You could even make a mana system that is passive using something like sliders so you choose a rate at which and where to invest your mana.
But sure lets belittle anyone who enjoys things you don't.
 
About the same as I remember spending piety in order to secretly convert from the religion I was supposedly pious of to a different religion and keeping it hidden ;)

They are all abstractions. Some I like more than others, and I am not a great fan of random stats to leaders in EU4 either. But the points themselves are OK and seriously come on I:R has more management of leaders. So. I am content.

What does that have to do with mana?You're overgeneralizing and frantically trying to defend the mana system which makes EUIV a map painting simulator and not a grand strategy games like some of its predecessors.I'm not arguing that CK2 is a perfect representation of reality and how people acted back in the day.But feudalism is perfectly represented by an equally complex system that doesn't involve magical points governing your nation(if I've caused you any confusion, reread my previous posts).
 
  • A ruler can use his skill to develop every single piece of land in his realm without investing capital. This also applies to every type of government.
  • A ruler can use his skill to improve technology at a moment's notice.
  • Ruler skill is used to hire generals. No, not to determine their quality to represent an incompetent ruler hiring his family as generals despite they suck at war.
  • Ruler's qualification is also needed for national ideas, which are very similar to technology, just a specialisation of it.
Let me rephrase that for you, because what you just posted is a gross oversimplification worthy of Trump.

A ruler can use his skill to develop every single piece of land in his realm without investing capital. This also applies to every type of government.
A ruler can use his skill at administration to appoint the right governors, make the right investments, promote the right traders, and pass the right laws to ensure his realm prospers and develops. Using capital would be far more unrealistic since the King doesn't personally fund everything. In EU4, Like in I:R you are not playing a ruler, you are playing a nation. The base of +3 mana is what the nation earns, not your king. The nation gets a boost (like in real life) if their king is good, or crippled, if he is bad.

A ruler can use his skill to improve technology at a moment's notice.
A ruler can use his skills at diplomacy, administration and technology to invite foreign scholars, pass laws promoting the sciences, encourage his generals to educate themselves on the art of war (eg: prussian officers and their wargames) and come up with inventions and innovations that are beneficial to the nation. Like irl.

Ruler skill is used to hire generals. No, not to determine their quality to represent an incompetent ruler hiring his family as generals despite they suck at war.
A ruler can use military power to recruit a general for a war, whose quality is dependent on the army tradition which is the average quality of his armed forces and their training colleges. Bad army tradition = bad officer's college = bad graduates = bad general. And vice versa for high army tradition.

Ruler's qualification is also needed for national ideas, which are very similar to technology, just a specialisation of it.
The ruler shapes his nation by his foreign policies and political leanings and shapes his nation for the generations to come. That is what national ideas are. Over time your nation develops these ideas embedded in its character, as its cultural heritage. Changing this (i.e abandoning an idea group after its completed) rarely happens (like irl) and costs a lot (like irl).

There. Done.
 
I have mentioned the "mana problem" to a friend of mine, and he asked me whether Paradox had a reason to go with that direction. I said that I'm not aware of a official reason, but I can make an informed guess.

Basically many questions in strategy game design seems to boil down to:
"what is simulated in the game, and what can the player influence"
and "what resources limit the player's ability to modify the simulation".

These include literal resources (gold, minerals, gas), abstract resources (sciene/culture points, diplomatic power) and things like time ("I could explore the whole map with a single unit in theory, but I have to make decisions as to what I do now, and what I do later")


I understand the idea of having few abstract resources that regulate the power of the player in specific areas. Then balancing them with each other can be relatively easy, and split into few steps:
  • "how much can the player do with military power"
  • "are all options for spending military power viable at some point, or are some too bad or too good?"
  • "what are the ways for the player to acquire military power"
  • "how does this power compare to other powers the player can acquire"
I also see the problem of not having relatively-easy-to-balance resources like that. False choices.
You might be able to make 4000 decisions in the game and invest in 100 different resources, but actually, only 2 play styles (priorities for decision-making) are viable and 3 of those 100 resources are the only ones that matter.

So sure, boiling down resources in a grand strategy games to less than 10, including some abstract "mana"? I get that. I get that it could allow to balance the stuff better, making more playstyles viable. Allowing players to play the same country differently, and also to make playing different countries different (as opposed to "always go for this strategy with every country" problem. Where the only difference is the difficulty, as in the size and power of the country you start with.)

So, in the end, I guess I'll defend the "mana" apporach. I prefer it over the "here's 20 systems that simulate something, and you can adjust parameters in 15 of them." Because it has a clause: "But really, just look on the forums for the perfect solution already calculated by some guy year ago."
The "mana" seems to be a better tool to get the "multiple viable strategies" gameplay dynamic. As in: "limited number of resources that one can compare against each other".
Also, it might make some decisions more clear. "Want 100 military power or 50 gold and 50 diplomatic power?" is a more understandable question than something like "10% infantry morale and 5% more oil income, or inflation reduction of 15% and culture of Northern Italy becomes 30% more like culture of Southern Italy"

I might not be the biggest fan of how this is designed/implemented in Europa Universalis IV, but that's more to do with what these powers do and what they don't do, what you spend them on, etc. Not with the approach itself.
I don't really have an opinion on Imperator: Rome yet.
 
This is top notch mirror climbing, ladies and gentlemen!

A ruler can use his skill at administration to appoint the right governors, make the right investments, promote the right traders, and pass the right laws to ensure his realm prospers and develops.

That sounds way more funnier than clicking a button on a screen! I will try to imagine that the next time i click "develop". And anyway, why can my ruler use his "skill at diplomacy" to create the conditions for an implement in economic production? Is he using his sweet voice with the miners?

In EU4, Like in I:R you are not playing a ruler, you are playing a nation. The base of +3 mana is what the nation earns, not your king.

Well, how does my nation earns 3? My nation is a tribe in the North Sahara, my highest development province is 6(potatoes, i guess), why does it earn the same as France, just across the Mediterranean? Maybe, just MAYBE, it's because that way a bad roll of dice with a ruler doesn't mean you have to restart the game, but what do i know, my mother says that my "skill at administration" is just 2.

A ruler can use his skills at diplomacy, administration and technology to invite foreign scholars

I see. So when you can't make a peace deal because you don't have bird mana it's because everybody is too excited because of all the new cool scholars that nobody shows up to the negotiations?

pass laws promoting the sciences

Another thing way more funnier than clicking a button.

encourage his generals to educate themselves on the art of war

Do you think that's how military development happened?

A ruler can use military power

Awesome. You don't even try to change the name, just "MILITARY POWAAAA".

Seriously guys now, i don't get how people can support the mana system. Liking the game sure, i also like it, it's kind of shallow but very fun, liking Paradox, i also like it, but i don't get how can anyone like this.

It's a way too radical abstraction, you literally shape your nation's economy clicking buttons and spending numbers, for fuck's sake. I can't be the only one who would prefer a political gameplay interactive and complex at least like the war part, imagine EU4 with a similar system applied to the wars. It's not a bad idea, it's just way too predominant and way too abstract. CK2 has an abstraction in prestige, that seems to turn big accomplishment into numbers to simulate it, but EU4 simulates INTERNAL POLICIES, TECHNOLOGIC DEVELOPMENT, PROMOTION OF LITERACY, ECONOMIC POLICIES AND MANOUVERS around Numbers.
 
I don't think you'll love our games from now on.

It is sad, i didn't think you would make a global design strategy over-using point pool. I understand hat It is easily declinable in any of your game but it is why people start to asking something else. After eu4 for so many year it already start to annoy and show the lack of "gampelay" behind thoose point. Well i still think i will enjoy I:R but maybe i was hoping more
 
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Mana isn't used for technology. Which is at least a step in the right direction.

Well technology doesn't make much sense in this period tbh. What major technological changes happened in this era that would warrant a whole technology system? I mean even if CK2 it makes zero sense since it's actually an "institutional" advance system. Even in EU4 half the techs are actually institutions.
 
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EU4's Monarch Points are too ill-defined, with too many different uses that aren't clearly related to each other. But this backlash against any and all instances of "mana" is getting ridiculous. If it's not points-based, it needs to be cooldown-based, or have some other kind of cap on actions. As long as the points are gained and used in reasonable ways there is absolutely no problem with this type of mechanic.
 
Money is a kind of mana.
My point was about power costs. In theory I suppose you could remove all costs too, by simply setting the prices to zero.
 
If I never read the word "mana" ever again, it'll be too soon.

Anyway, this thread got personal and dirty fast. So closed. A reminder that me closing one thread is NOT an invitation to open a new one.
 
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