How can Mississippian civilization be accurately represented?

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

For those out of the loop, North America, or rather what would become the Southern and Midwestern United States, wasn't always the sparely populated land that Europeans would encounter in the 17th and 18th centuries. Instead it was populated by the peoples of the Mississippian culture, who engaged in mound building and founded towns and even small cities (low tens of thousands). Now in 1337 this civilization seems to have been past its prime, but late Mississippian culture wouldn't die out until the 18th century, well within the timeframe of this game. This raises the question: how should the mound building civilization be represented ingame? It clearly existed within the relevant timeframe, but it also seems to have died out more or less on its own due to a mix of environmental collapse and of course the European plagues, without substantial contact with Europeans. It's clear that representing these natives as a collection of nomads isn't accurate for the period, though it becomes accurate as the game progresses, raising the question I pose in the title: how can this be accurately represented by Project Caesar?

 

[Keksburg]

I really want to say, that as long as it won’t affect the performance of the game, whatever.

But that would be kinda mean and disrespevtive - let alone that I’m now also kinda curious on this. So OP, if you are in charge of the designing of this content, what would u do?

 

[MW4Merc]

We know that population as number is the basis of the game. So maybe there is some way that locations can revert to being 'uncolonized' if the population drops too far.

In this case, through the plagues and possible natural disasters, the mound builders can be 'depopulated' and drop back to one location countries that are migratory something in the vein of EU4. The starting population could be very low and slow growing to represent the end of their prime and it only takes a push to drop them off the map.
We know the game will have to deal with the Black Plague so there will be some mechanic for spread of disease.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

I really want to say, that as long as it won’t affect the performance of the game, whatever.

But that would be kinda mean and disrespevtive - let alone that I’m now also kinda curious on this. So OP, if you are in charge of the designing of this content, what would u do?

Well I'm not anywhere close to an expert on this subject, I basically know that these societies were civilizations in 1337, and by the time significant European contact was occurring they weren't. It seems to me like two things need to occur here. First, ecological collapse leading to cities being unsustainable would ideally be represented, either through events or a universal simulation. We can simplify this as just having the American plagues render towns and cities demographically unsustainable, which even if it wasn't the sole factor was the main cause for collapse at least for the south Appalachian societies (Hernando de Soto's failed expedition spreading plague). Regardless of how this happens, the result should be that what were once urban societies become nomadic and semi-nomadic societies. This should be a change which is possible for tags to make, and one which is appealing to both the AI and players. As a rule tribal societies should be stronger on a per-capita basis, but have a far lower soft upper limit on size, meaning that if you fall below that threshold reverting to a tribal/nomadic organizational structure is a good way to remain competitive, even if long term a player wants to return to civilization building.

 

[Keksburg]

the result should be that what were once urban societies become nomadic and semi-nomadic societies

That’s cool - when pops are not that many and economy not that much, urban things become nomadic things - it’s also a good way to simulate the Black Death.

 

[William the Merry]

For those out of the loop, North America, or rather what would become the Southern and Midwestern United States, wasn't always the sparely populated land that Europeans would encounter in the 17th and 18th centuries. Instead it was populated by the peoples of the Mississippian culture, who engaged in mound building and founded towns and even small cities (low tens of thousands). Now in 1337 this civilization seems to have been past its prime, but late Mississippian culture wouldn't die out until the 18th century, well within the timeframe of this game. This raises the question: how should the mound building civilization be represented ingame? It clearly existed within the relevant timeframe, but it also seems to have died out more or less on its own due to a mix of environmental collapse and of course the European plagues, without substantial contact with Europeans. It's clear that representing these natives as a collection of nomads isn't accurate for the period, though it becomes accurate as the game progresses, raising the question I pose in the title: how can this be accurately represented by Project Caesar?

Have the provinces start as cities,but then pops leave and form new semi nomad tags, like the boer republics in vic2 hpm

 

[Mef]

From what has been shown so far it looks like buildings > pops. So if you have a town, or if you have buildings that need burghers, then pops in that location will become burghers.
Unless there is a mechanic that turns towns to rural locations if all the burghers leave/die, it would have to be the buildings or town status itself that is destroyed.

I definitely think that such a mechanic should exist in the game, not just for depopulating the Americas but also razing by hordes and similar events.
So if, due to war, migration or disease, burgher population in a town/city that wasn't established recently falls way below equilibrium and below what would be required to establish that status, then the location would be downgraded to rural/town and would need a significant investment to be restored to its former glory.

 

[Northernwwater]

It is not possible today to represent history accurately without blowback, except for a few exceptions.

 

[Northernwwater]

? It clearly existed within the relevant timeframe, but it also seems to have died out more or less on its own due to a mix of environmental collapse and of course the European plagues, without substantial contact with Europeans.

Mound builders predated European anything in the Americas.

They don't know why they collapsed. Most likely due to the total war engaged in by surrounding tribes. We have an historical example in the Huron in Ontario Canada circa 1600s.

 

[Ispil]

From Killing Civilization: A Reassessment of Early Urbanism and its Consequences:

A Cahokian state, however, never materialized in subsequent decades, and the city's population began a steady decline in the twelfth century. Cahokia collapsed for many reasons, but one of the most important factors in the city's demise may have been the population's resistance to what it rightly perceived as an increasingly hierarchal and centralized society. Rising social differences had contributed significantly to the abandonment of Çatalhöyük, and it appears that Cahokia also began breaking apart even as elite positions solidified. The would-be rulers of the settlement could not get along and were scattered across the city's neighborhoods. This decentralization and antagonism seems to have been largely as a result of the strategies that these leaders had pursued in order to consolidate their positions.

(Jennings, Killing Civilization, page 137)

 

[Mef]

From Killing Civilization: A Reassessment of Early Urbanism and its Consequences:

(Jennings, Killing Civilization, page 137)

I'm always wondering how they know all this stuff. Like, are there records detailing the leaders' strategies and the population's opinion on them?

 

[Ispil]

I'm always wondering how they know all this stuff. Like, are there records detailing the leaders' strategies and the population's opinion on them?

You can see things in the archaeological record like elites co-opting religious symbols, building larger houses, burning down temples and building new ones, and building walls between the individual neighborhoods of the town, for instance. You can also see evidence of increasing violence and malnutrition alongside this.

There's a lot you can read into even without necessarily having written records.

 

[William the Merry]

I'm always wondering how they know all this stuff. Like, are there records detailing the leaders' strategies and the population's opinion on them?

Educated guesses, they don't know for sure

 

[Eltener]

It is not possible today to represent history accurately without blowback, except for a few exceptions.

I don't think that applies in this case at all. Are there really people out there who deny the Mississippian cultures ever existed or that they were adversely affected by plagues coinciding with the arrival of Europeans? Are there really enough of them out there that the game would get blowback?

 

[Austregisel]

In Eu4 I usually play with a mod that disables all the tribes in North America, Australia, New Zealand and South America, because they really take up space, and the edges of the federations are terrible and remain there permanently, buggy to this day, and the gameplay I don't like it, so if they make civilizations like Mississippi playable but boring like the tribes in eu4 then I wouldn't mind being cut from the game. But if you think it doesn't just take up space and has decent gameplay and isn't boring to play or even annoying to deal with while colonizing the continent then it would seem like a good idea to give representations like this

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

I'm absolutely not an expert either so take what I say with a grain of salt or correct me if I'm incorrect on something.

There could be a large amount of 'city-states' spread throughout the continent but it seems like there would be a few larger chiefdoms as well.

While we don't know exactly how large the Cahokian chiefdom would've been exactly, even conservative views agree that Cahokia would've been at the center of a densely populated and complex chiefdom with plenty of political and religious power in its heyday. There were at least some satellite villages under Cahokia's control like the nearby Emerald Mound Village, Pulcher Archeological site, etc.

Cahokia would of course not be the only one. Moundville, Spiro, and Emerald Mound were undoubtedly centers of regional states. Around the start date, a few cities were starting that would soon become powerful by the time of De Soto's expedition such as Casqui, Coosa, and Cofitachequi.

I suspect that, while the Old World is suffering through the Black Death, the New World will be going through it's own upheaval probably centered on changes in the weather that would impact food shortages and social pressures. I should also mention that, while we do know that Cahokia had been relatively abandoned by about 1400, the population did rebound from 1500-1700. Regardless, it seems like there will be plenty of pressure on socially stratified populations in the larger cities and there will be uphill tests for any player that would be determined to keep their Mississippian cities going.

 

[Keksburg]

In Eu4 I usually play with a mod that disables all the tribes in North America, Australia, New Zealand and South America

By removing them all with empty lands?

 

[Kovax]

It appears that Cahokia and other cities of the type suffered from the pains of urbanization without prior experience: inadequate sewage systems inviting the spread of disease, social inequality in close proximity leading to resentment and unrest, lack of an agreed political hierarchy leading to frequent violent disputes, and inability to feed the growing population as the surrounding land was over-farmed and tapped out.

Learning the hard way to control those factors and develop proper waste disposal techniques, separate rich and poor neighborhoods, a solid political structure, crop rotation and improved transport of food over distance, could have led to a successful civilization of considerable density, but failure to learn in the short time until the European invasion doomed that to "what if" contemplation. The more you concentrate, the faster you learn, but the more you invite a wide range of disasters.

Putting that into Project Caesar would be interesting, but a challenge to balance while keeping it "playable".

 

[Eraneir]

It appears that Cahokia and other cities of the type suffered from the pains of urbanization without prior experience: inadequate sewage systems inviting the spread of disease, social inequality in close proximity leading to resentment and unrest, lack of an agreed political hierarchy leading to frequent violent disputes, and inability to feed the growing population as the surrounding land was over-farmed and tapped out.

Learning the hard way to control those factors and develop proper waste disposal techniques, separate rich and poor neighborhoods, a solid political structure, crop rotation and improved transport of food over distance, could have led to a successful civilization of considerable density, but failure to learn in the short time until the European invasion doomed that to "what if" contemplation. The more you concentrate, the faster you learn, but the more you invite a wide range of disasters.

Putting that into Project Caesar would be interesting, but a challenge to balance while keeping it "playable".

I like this narrative, because I think it can be seized in term of gameplay. You could sum it up with "rush the relevant early technology and navigate disaster before the true storm come."

 

[Mef]

It appears that Cahokia and other cities of the type suffered from the pains of urbanization without prior experience: inadequate sewage systems inviting the spread of disease, social inequality in close proximity leading to resentment and unrest, lack of an agreed political hierarchy leading to frequent violent disputes, and inability to feed the growing population as the surrounding land was over-farmed and tapped out.

Not sure if that can be true, because these issues, especially with sewage, only happened to really big cities, think Paris or later London. The vast majority of cities in the first few centuries of the game were relatively small and didn't have to deal with overcrowding or anything like that.

The image shows how Trier, the seat of a powerful Archbishop and Elector, looked like in 1430. Cities of this size do not struggle with the same problems as an urban metropolis.
I don't believe that Cahokia had massive cities with more than 20000 people?