How can Mississippian civilization be accurately represented?

[Eraneir]

Natives are 200 years of speed 5 before europeans arrive or powerhouses which stop colonization. I'd rather the tags just didn't exist if they're going to slow down the game performance either way.

Part of the fun of Paradox games is that all is playable and all tags play with the same rule than you. It can be wacky, but personally I prefer them to try again and again than to let some tag aside cause "it's difficult", or "it's boring".

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

Part of the fun of Paradox games is that all is playable and all tags play with the same rule than you. It can be wacky, but personally I prefer them to try again and again than to let some tag aside cause "it's difficult", or "it's boring".

I couldn't agree more! The Mississippians have a lot of potential here and would already make great use of the estates system that Project Caesar is working on. Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, I thought Johan mentioned that Tinto has worked hard with making sure that the game won't slow down with the details of all the locations and states. It seems like numerous American chiefdoms and the Holy Roman Empire shouldn't be too concerning for this game.

 

[nyetflix2]

I don't think that's entirely fair, 40k puts it in the same category as Padua, Prague Verona, and not that far from the lower estimates of London at the time. Certainly it's not comparing to the largest cities in Europe, but those were hardly small.

I think 40k is an outlier, modern estimates say 10-20k at its peak.

 

[nyetflix2]

would already make great use of the estates system that Project Caesar is working on

How so? Now you've gotten me curious.

 

[William the Merry]

What I haven't seen here: should this be the same as the Mayan area?

Theyre already in decline so wont be as fun if as true to history as people want cahokia to be

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

How so? Now you've gotten me curious.

In the video you shared yesterday (thanks by the way, I found it very informative!), it sounded like one of or perhaps the principal cause of Cahokia's decline was the political instability. The tension between the upper and lower classes in Cahokia and Aztalan would be great to see with the estates system.

 

[Thorum]

Theyre already in decline so wont be as fun if as true to history as people want cahokia to be

Both were in decline, both had some cities remaining by 1337

 

[nyetflix2]

In the video you shared yesterday (thanks by the way, I found it very informative!), it sounded like one of or perhaps the principal cause of Cahokia's decline was the political instability. The tension between the upper and lower classes in Cahokia and Aztalan would be great to see with the estates system.

Interesting thought, but I think the decline had basically already happened by 1337, and what we'd see in game (assuming we're following the correct timeline) is just the finishing-off of the city. Aztalan was abandoned even earlier by 1300. But yeah I love that channel, the guy is obviously really passionate about pre-Columbian history and I think does a good job of being disciplined about sources.

 

[William the Merry]

Interesting thought, but I think the decline had basically already happened by 1337, and what we'd see in game (assuming we're following the correct timeline) is just the finishing-off of the city. Aztalan was abandoned even earlier by 1300. But yeah I love that channel, the guy is obviously really passionate about pre-Columbian history and I think does a good job of being disciplined about sources.

I thought Aztalan was the aztec homeland in New Mexico, not an actual city?

Both were in decline, both had some cities remaining by 1337

Within the thread some have argued that Cahokia and other Missippians arent in decline yet

 

[nyetflix2]

I thought Aztalan was the aztec homeland in New Mexico, not an actual city?

The city

The mythical Aztec homeland

The similarity in name is misleading, some archaeologist named the city thus because he thought it was the Aztec homeland itself. However, this is definitely not true and the two are unrelated, yet the name has stuck. See here. Fun fact, Aztatlan was also a chiefdom around modern Nayarit state of Mexico at the moment of Spanish contact - no idea if the name is related or it's merely a coincedence.

Also, the idea that Aztlan is located in New Mexico is misleading and it's unfortunate it's so popular. Here is a great reddit comment explaining it all.

It's placed in New Mexico due to the distribution/proposed urheimat of the Uto-Aztecan language family which straddles the US and Mexico and whose urheimat is proposed to be in the American southwest (I personally think northern Mexico may be a better candidate, but there could be some evidence I'm ignoring). However UA is not actually an especially closely nit family, with a common unity estimated around 5,000 years before present - whereas the Aztecs migrated a few hundred years before founding Tenochtitlan.

Aztlan is said to be the homeland of other Nahua groups in and around the Valley of Mexico (Acolhuas, Tepanecas, etc), in addition to the Mexicas. As I understand, Nahua peoples are currently thought by archaeologists to have originated around the Bajio of Mexico, so around Mesoamerica itself. Whatever the case, it's probably not the American southwest.

Sorry for linguistposting fellas, please return to the normal programming

 

[Snapple_jack]

It seems like some of this can work using the structure of estates and privileges from TT#5, and a good migration system.

From my non-expert understanding, the main factor that makes the disintegration of Mississippian culture unique was that there was a lot fertile AND low-density land available. Any time that crops failed, warfare or strife increased, or elites attempted to control and segment the population, the "Commoner estate" of Cahokia could simply leave.

For Project Caesar, I think there should be a mechanic where unhappy estates in a Location would attempt to move to Locations where there is both food and lower control, and Commoners are willing/able to migrate more readily. As you lose population, you would naturally lose the ability to maintain buildings or estates that rely on surplus production.

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

Interesting thought, but I think the decline had basically already happened by 1337, and what we'd see in game (assuming we're following the correct timeline) is just the finishing-off of the city. Aztalan was abandoned even earlier by 1300. But yeah I love that channel, the guy is obviously really passionate about pre-Columbian history and I think does a good job of being disciplined about sources.

I agree that Cahokia had declined by the start date and that there was still a population there until sometime around 1350-1400. Again, I wish the video spent a little more time going over the population rebound that happened 1500-1700. I'm still reading the source, but I'm hoping for details on the population maximum in 1650 and why the depopulation happened. Maybe a determined player could exceed that!

It seems like some of this can work using the structure of estates and privileges from TT#5, and a good migration system.

From my non-expert understanding, the main factor that makes the disintegration of Mississippian culture unique was that there was a lot fertile AND low-density land available. Any time that crops failed, warfare or strife increased, or elites attempted to control and segment the population, the "Commoner estate" of Cahokia could simply leave.

For Project Caesar, I think there should be a mechanic where unhappy estates in a Location would attempt to move to Locations where there is both food and lower control, and Commoners are willing/able to migrate more readily. As you lose population, you would naturally lose the ability to maintain buildings or estates that rely on surplus production.

That would be interesting if pops in those super unhappy "Commoner estates" can leave especially if there's low control. I wonder if that's something that could in other states well like unhappy pops in France moving to English territories?

 

[EU3NOOB]

I really want to say, that as long as it won’t affect the performance of the game, whatever.

But that would be kinda mean and disrespevtive - let alone that I’m now also kinda curious on this. So OP, if you are in charge of the designing of this content, what would u do?

I think the problem is, until we know more about colonization, it's hard to say how this topic should work.

 

[Lightwell]

For those out of the loop, North America, or rather what would become the Southern and Midwestern United States, wasn't always the sparely populated land that Europeans would encounter in the 17th and 18th centuries. Instead it was populated by the peoples of the Mississippian culture, who engaged in mound building and founded towns and even small cities (low tens of thousands). Now in 1337 this civilization seems to have been past its prime, but late Mississippian culture wouldn't die out until the 18th century, well within the timeframe of this game. This raises the question: how should the mound building civilization be represented ingame? It clearly existed within the relevant timeframe, but it also seems to have died out more or less on its own due to a mix of environmental collapse and of course the European plagues, without substantial contact with Europeans. It's clear that representing these natives as a collection of nomads isn't accurate for the period, though it becomes accurate as the game progresses, raising the question I pose in the title: how can this be accurately represented by Project Caesar?

Disease-induced nomadism is an interesting phenomenon I don't fully understand.

 

[Leandor]

While we don't know any details, we know (I think?) that the game will try to model the last years of the Greenland colony. Why not use whatever they have planned, and use a similar version to decaying cities like Cahokia?

It is not the same situation, but hear me out. Both cases are in their last years, before being completely abandoned. I'm guessing Greenland will become uncolonized, so why not Cahokia goes through the same process? I'm guessing the chance of AI survival in Greenland is very, very slim, and it should be the same with the Mound cities.

I admit, I love complicated situations and try to survive them. I'm already planning on playing Nordic Greenland (if it is a thing), and would be great to play the last years of Cahokia. Managing to turn it into a true Mississipian metropolis could be an interesting playthrough!

 

[Dongerino]

However they choose to portray the American natives, they should make sure it can be a self-contained and satisfying experience for the first 200 years before European contact. 200 years is a long time of gameplay, so the focus should be on that, not on some memey mechanics about pushing back the invaders and sunset invasions.

Realistically, the plague should be incredibly difficult to overcome and these nations should be a nightmare to play after contact, which I think is perfectly fine so long as the time before that is fun. If they can't model anything beyond waiting for Europeans to arrive for 200 years, pressing a meme button to reform and then taking over the entire continent, they shouldn't even bother implementing the tribes.

 

[Darsara]

I don't think that applies in this case at all. Are there really people out there who deny the Mississippian cultures ever existed or that they were adversely affected by plagues coinciding with the arrival of Europeans? Are there really enough of them out there that the game would get blowback?

I have do not doubt they exist (in fact, I know that there are, somehow, people who would rage at the idea of Native Americans being treated as competent, advanced societies that were harmed by Europeans), but I doubt they're a really significant problem for the game; just a very vocal group Paradox shouldn't want anything to do with anyways who will probably attack the game for plenty of reasons (having playable non-European as successful nations, say). Well, barring any really sudden shifts in certain regional politics that I can't really rule out, at least...

I mean, there are people out there who would denounce the game because the 14 & 15 centuries are a 'Papist Hoax' or endorcing Globism (Hail Sobek), so really.

 

[Northernwwater]

From Killing Civilization: A Reassessment of Early Urbanism and its Consequences:

(Jennings, Killing Civilization, page 137)

The collapse was in the 12th century. They said ...

"Cahokia collapsed for many reasons, but one of the most important factors in the city's demise may have been the population's resistance to what it rightly perceived as an increasingly hierarchal and centralized society. Rising social differences had contributed significantly to the abandonment of Çatalhöyük, and it appears that Cahokia also began breaking apart even as elite positions solidified. The would-be rulers of the settlement could not get along and were scattered across the city's neighborhoods. This decentralization and antagonism seems to have been largely as a result of the strategies that these leaders had pursued in order to consolidate their positions. "

How would the authors know this?

 

[Northernwwater]

You can see things in the archaeological record like elites co-opting religious symbols, building larger houses, burning down temples and building new ones, and building walls between the individual neighborhoods of the town, for instance. You can also see evidence of increasing violence and malnutrition alongside this.

There's a lot you can read into even without necessarily having written records.

So they made all those astounding conclusions by "reading into" a meager amount of archeological evidence.

 

[Northernwwater]

Educated guesses, they don't know for sure

They have no idea why the collapse occurred.

All we have is the ability to extrapolate from the tribal behavior and history we do have.