HOI4 Dev Diary - Air Improvements

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Gort11

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This is undeniably progress in the right direction. I do have a bunch of constructive criticism, though - I still think the system is lacking:

1. Being able to attack planes in zones other than the one they're targeting (EG: If the Germans are bombing London, I should be able to kill those bombers over the Channel)

2. Some form of representation of pilot numbers, skill, and the training required for them - this would also go hand-in-hand with some kind of pilot recovery mechanic where it's better to be defending your own territory as it means your pilots can be recovered more easily

3. Better handling of aircraft range. Having mission efficiency be determined by the ability of the plane to reach the furthest points of an arbitrarily-sized air zone is one of the very worst parts of the current system

4. Better handling of large bomber wings on CAS missions. You're allowed to have three bombers for each point of combat width being used, which generally means if you exceed about 240 planes in your CAS wings, most of them can't participate in most combats. However, these excess planes don't go off and join other combats, they're just wasted. The game should automatically allocate the excess planes to other combats, so I can just whack down 1000 CAS in a zone and watch it obliterate everything

5. Bombers should be able to target ground forces without requiring a land combat to "latch onto". It's silly that I can put 10,000 bombers into an air-zone teeming with enemy ground forces and they can't find a single thing to bomb. It should absolutely be more effective for them to support ground forces, but they should be able to do some damage on their own.

6. Better control of strategic bombing. I should be able to bomb just the enemy airfields if I want to, I shouldn't have to also level their infrastructure, forts and ports too

7. Better representation of what missions planes could actually carry out. For example, strategic bombers were used to attack ships - to varying levels of effect (B-17s utterly missing the Japanese carriers at Midway, Lancasters devastating the Tirpitz, for example) - throughout WW2. To say that they can only do strategic bombing is needlessly restrictive. The divide between tactical, naval and close support bombers seems very weird as well - while there were planes designed to specialise in one of these roles, there were plenty of planes that could be switched between these loadouts with less than an hour of work. Perhaps a better divide would be fighters - heavy fighters - bombers - heavy bombers?

8. Jets need to integrate into wings of non-jet planes better. It's silly that I can have a 1933 biplane and a 1944 fighter together in a wing, but a 1945 jet is supposedly completely alien and has to be segregated off into its own wing.

9. RADAR should be implemented directly into naval warfare, especially regarding naval AAA, but it should really be a general co-ordination boost for navies. It was a huge deal.
 

Gwydion5

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I have to say im rather disappointed about whats been revealed here. Im not sure if you guys have more hidden behind the scenes that youre not telling us about yet, but when you said you were reworking the air war, i thought you actually were going to rework it, not fix some UI issues and call it a day.

The air war is filled with bugs, CAS is absolute cancer, half the mechanics are still hidden, and i could go on and on and on. Really i was looking forward to this Dev diary, and i hope you have more still in the bag to reveal about this.

We are just going to have to wait until 1.4 is released before we can make judgments. Second guessing what is or is not in 1.4 is just an exercise in futility. After 1.4 / DoD is out we can reassess the development / direction of HOI4 and express our opinions on how we feel they are doing.
 

grandad1982

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This is undeniably progress in the right direction. I do have a bunch of constructive criticism, though - I still think the system is lacking:

1. Being able to attack planes in zones other than the one they're targeting (EG: If the Germans are bombing London, I should be able to kill those bombers over the Channel)

2. Some form of representation of pilot numbers, skill, and the training required for them - this would also go hand-in-hand with some kind of pilot recovery mechanic where it's better to be defending your own territory as it means your pilots can be recovered more easily

3. Better handling of aircraft range. Having mission efficiency be determined by the ability of the plane to reach the furthest points of an arbitrarily-sized air zone is one of the very worst parts of the current system

4. Better handling of large bomber wings on CAS missions. You're allowed to have three bombers for each point of combat width being used, which generally means if you exceed about 240 planes in your CAS wings, most of them can't participate in most combats. However, these excess planes don't go off and join other combats, they're just wasted. The game should automatically allocate the excess planes to other combats, so I can just whack down 1000 CAS in a zone and watch it obliterate everything

5. Bombers should be able to target ground forces without requiring a land combat to "latch onto". It's silly that I can put 10,000 bombers into an air-zone teeming with enemy ground forces and they can't find a single thing to bomb. It should absolutely be more effective for them to support ground forces, but they should be able to do some damage on their own.

6. Better control of strategic bombing. I should be able to bomb just the enemy airfields if I want to, I shouldn't have to also level their infrastructure, forts and ports too

7. Better representation of what missions planes could actually carry out. For example, strategic bombers were used to attack ships - to varying levels of effect (B-17s utterly missing the Japanese carriers at Midway, Lancasters devastating the Tirpitz, for example) - throughout WW2. To say that they can only do strategic bombing is needlessly restrictive. The divide between tactical, naval and close support bombers seems very weird as well - while there were planes designed to specialise in one of these roles, there were plenty of planes that could be switched between these loadouts with less than an hour of work. Perhaps a better divide would be fighters - heavy fighters - bombers - heavy bombers?

8. Jets need to integrate into wings of non-jet planes better. It's silly that I can have a 1933 biplane and a 1944 fighter together in a wing, but a 1945 jet is supposedly completely alien and has to be segregated off into its own wing.

9. RADAR should be implemented directly into naval warfare, especially regarding naval AAA, but it should really be a general co-ordination boost for navies. It was a huge deal.
Pretty much all of this.
 

Thracian

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gui of hoi4 was the worst of all amongst previous pdox titles, good to see it is changed
do not let the dude who designed the gui in vanilla ever do gui again
 

Meglok

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This is undeniably progress in the right direction. I do have a bunch of constructive criticism, though - I still think the system is lacking:

1. Being able to attack planes in zones other than the one they're targeting (EG: If the Germans are bombing London, I should be able to kill those bombers over the Channel)

2. Some form of representation of pilot numbers, skill, and the training required for them - this would also go hand-in-hand with some kind of pilot recovery mechanic where it's better to be defending your own territory as it means your pilots can be recovered more easily

3. Better handling of aircraft range. Having mission efficiency be determined by the ability of the plane to reach the furthest points of an arbitrarily-sized air zone is one of the very worst parts of the current system

4. Better handling of large bomber wings on CAS missions. You're allowed to have three bombers for each point of combat width being used, which generally means if you exceed about 240 planes in your CAS wings, most of them can't participate in most combats. However, these excess planes don't go off and join other combats, they're just wasted. The game should automatically allocate the excess planes to other combats, so I can just whack down 1000 CAS in a zone and watch it obliterate everything

5. Bombers should be able to target ground forces without requiring a land combat to "latch onto". It's silly that I can put 10,000 bombers into an air-zone teeming with enemy ground forces and they can't find a single thing to bomb. It should absolutely be more effective for them to support ground forces, but they should be able to do some damage on their own.

6. Better control of strategic bombing. I should be able to bomb just the enemy airfields if I want to, I shouldn't have to also level their infrastructure, forts and ports too

7. Better representation of what missions planes could actually carry out. For example, strategic bombers were used to attack ships - to varying levels of effect (B-17s utterly missing the Japanese carriers at Midway, Lancasters devastating the Tirpitz, for example) - throughout WW2. To say that they can only do strategic bombing is needlessly restrictive. The divide between tactical, naval and close support bombers seems very weird as well - while there were planes designed to specialise in one of these roles, there were plenty of planes that could be switched between these loadouts with less than an hour of work. Perhaps a better divide would be fighters - heavy fighters - bombers - heavy bombers?

8. Jets need to integrate into wings of non-jet planes better. It's silly that I can have a 1933 biplane and a 1944 fighter together in a wing, but a 1945 jet is supposedly completely alien and has to be segregated off into its own wing.

9. RADAR should be implemented directly into naval warfare, especially regarding naval AAA, but it should really be a general co-ordination boost for navies. It was a huge deal.

as @grandad1982 said, pretty much all of this

The 2 only things I would add is to reduce the size of some air regions and to give players an option to not upgrade a wing to new planes.

Unfortunately I have little hope of seeing these things now until "sometime in the future" Really beginning to wonder if HOI4 was released to us last year as a crowd funding beta project. Heck of a marketing plan as long as it works.
 

Louella

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@podcat , I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the mission icons, but... are those icons, for Naval strike, Kamikaze strike, and Port strike ?

will it be possible to have units specifically allowed to do kamikaze strikes, or will it still be tied to being the "fighter" aircraft type ?

Because that's one of the issues with the Japanese rocket kamikaze attack aircraft, the Ohka - ingame it can't perform kamikaze strikes, because it's not classed as a fighter, so doesn't have the kamikaze mission available.
 

Grallak

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The UI overhaul seems amazing, but there are things missing.

Essentially, this doesn't change the main limitations of air combat. Just look at the first screenshot. The player attacking the generic region of N. France cannot cover it with air support properly because of the position of the airfields available and limitations in range of the aircraft in the early war stage at least. That setup wouldn't be a big problem, but the player has no tools to deal with this - which is frustrating. It is very important that we will be able to manage the air units and view their combat properly, get more info from the UI, but it will only highlight this limitation further. And the fix should be obvious: allow the player to build airfields in provinces, rather than "states", as it is defined now (or make them correspond the air regions, would be even better). Without creating a detailed management system as in HoI3, the player can still influence the strategic impact by just allowing more control over the construction of airfields.

Also, the air units doing combat over a region on the ground where the ground combat is taking place should come from airfields and air units that make sense from a logical perspective, instead of being matched up generically, randomly from all the units that can be active in that region. If there's a CAS unit in the airfield behind my divisions, I hope to see that unit being engaged by enemy interceptors when those divisions are in battle (when it makes sense for that air battle to take place). The way this is calculated is not that relevant, it doesn't matter that the air units movement is not tracked for simplicity reasons, but the way they are matched with enemy units should hopefully take into consideration strategic factors.

One idea to consider should be to make air regions smaller and allow the assignment of multiple regions for a single air unit. The shape of the regions should be changed to what makes sense in the air rather than political considerations. Long, thin air combat regions don't make a lot of sense. If this is tweaked, the current system can work wonderfully well and the players won't feel that too much is missing, I hope.
This. Just do like you do with naval. Make Northern france 10 regions and allow the planes to be assigned to 3-5 ish. This way you can have the player use planes as artillery like in the battle of the Ardeness when all planes are concentrated in a small area. Then make it so that it takes time for airplanes to be assigned to a region depending on how far away it is and make so that it can't target all of the planes unless there are good radars. Radars exist to prevent the enemy from massing their aircrafts in one spot.
 

OntoTR

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@podcat
@Da9L

About Radar: In the stream with daniel the radius expanded quite over a big area when he builded a radarstation from 1 to 3.

So my question is, is it better to build 3 lvl 1 radar station in an area for best coverage or one lvl 3 radar station? Also whats the impact on airdetection? 3 lvl 1 better or one lvl 3?
Do the effects add up exponentially or not?
I know it depends also on the airzone and the shape of it. But explain the theory behind it pls.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144534330
at 47:44 you can see lvl 1 radar station
at 58:00 you can see lvl 3 radar station

Also if I cover an airzone entirely with radar do I have 100% detection in that airzone then?
 
Last edited:

Praetori

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Great update. Looks nice.

@podcat
A feature sorely missing is the ability to lock down specific equipment for specific air-wings (much like divisions). Low volume variants with increased range for example will get diluted with other versions which means no long-range NAVs or high reliability night-fighter squadrons (currently).

Also regarding the intermediary intercept air-zones feature (or the lack of it). I do realize the issues involved compared with the mechanics how interceptions are handled as part of the bombing missions but if air-zones are going to be refined/reduced in size then this will probably need to be addressed somehow.
With this new interface then information could be pretty solidly conveyed to the player much how land-supply works (you already added the arrows that shows the main path of the flights).
You could get information at-a-glance that a lot of your bombers are intercepted over The Benelux air-zone for example (much how you see supply bottlenecks) and then utilize escort fighters with different ranges for the different air-zones etc. Same for the defender. Building radar and AAA would actually make sense in places where you don't have factories.
 

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Please please oh please tell me we can select only certain variants to reinforce a wing, like with ground equipment. I want to make light fighters gunned up for interception and others agilitied up for dogfighting and keep them separated!
 

Praetorian44

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These look like some excellent changes. Managing the air war looks like it won't be such a pain in the butt.
 

Constans

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Well, the DD don´t talked much about the balancing. (including l.fighters vs h. fighters) but i sense its also on the work :).
Waiting the 1.4 as those changes do makes more easy to see whats going on allowing more players to understand the mechanics and play even better.

@podcat

Does the bug with aircrafts with 0% mission efficiency still giving air superiority bonus fixed? Its right now my main concern as it allow players to put their whole airforce in a single airfield, get a impossible amount of air superiority and get 0 planes killed even by accident as they don´t fly or fight.


My personal hope is that Heavy Fighters more turn into the "multi-role" type from HOI3. Meaning they're still pretty weak against Fighters at controlling the air, BUT they give you the option of using them for Naval Strike and Close Air Support as well as Air Superiority and Interception. In reality, Heavy Fighters performed a large variety of roles, and pigeonholing them to air superiority and interception is inaccurate.
 

FOARP

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Glad to see the changes that have been made to make air combat a bit more real to the player whilst not bogging them down in micro.

I hope some more balancing work has been done on naval bombing by land-based aircraft: it really shouldn't be the case that I can repeatedly attack a Soviet Baltic fleet isolated From any home port hundreds of times with hundreds of bombers, without making any appreciable damage to them because only a handful of bombers seem to find the Soviets each time.
 

Sernista

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@podcat - how does the single-button mission assignment for regions work with aircraft that can do multiple mission types? IE: If I have TAC as my primary strike aircraft, and tick both CAS and Strategic Bombing as objectives, how will that work? Will it mix the aircraft between the missions, or just do one or the other?
 

Gort11

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@podcat - how does the single-button mission assignment for regions work with aircraft that can do multiple mission types? IE: If I have TAC as my primary strike aircraft, and tick both CAS and Strategic Bombing as objectives, how will that work? Will it mix the aircraft between the missions, or just do one or the other?

The wiki on air warfare has this to say on the matter:

Assigning more than one mission to an air wing will not result in simultaneous execution of all these missions. For example, if the Close Air Support and Strategic Bombing missions are activated for Tactical Bombers, they will usually perform the Strategic Bombing first, until there are no more active constructions in the area. Fighters with both air superiority and interception missions probably only ever carry out air superiority. It is more efficient to have two wings each ordered to execute one of two mission types than have both of them ordered to execute both mission types.

http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Air_warfare