German light tank blitz idea

[Simon_9732495]

Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad fallen 12 days after declaration of war.

Spoiler: MAP 12 days after start of Barbarossa

And a bit later, we got the Oil. And some more land...

Spoiler: MAP 23 days after start of Barbarossa

 

[Zauberelefant]

This is insane! And sad. And funny!
I guess even human players would struggle against this build. One breakthrough and the game is pretty much Up.

 

[Simon_9732495]

And on 18th of July 1941 it's all over. That's 26 days after the declaration of war.

Spoiler: MAP 26 days after start of Barbarossa

I lost in total 3000 Light Tanks (almost all at the beginning) and 332 Infantry Equipment.

Soviets lost 200k Infantry Equipment 10k Artillery and 12k other.

 

[seattle]

@Simon_9732495
Launched Barbarossa on July 3rd, 1941 (North Africa and Greece delayed it).
5 days later, on of my 30 kmh tankettes encircled the Kurland region faster than any Soviet div could react.

Three months later... this is hardly a success story. Already lost 13,000 (!) light tanks and light SPA. I guess this super-fast LT thing requires a ton of micro and skill to pull off. It worked very well in Poland and France. Never could have finished both campaigns in under a week each without mass light tanks. But by 1941, they just don't cut it for me anymore.
Then again, I never managed to pull off the required numbers. Maybe I should have gone full light tank instead of producing a lot of infantry.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I guess this super-fast LT thing requires a ton of micro and skill to pull off.

I just did a test run to see how big the influence of microing is. I loaded a savegame the moment before declaration of war and just gave all the Tanks one big Field Marshal offensive Line to somewhere behind the Urals. I never touched the tanks and just managed the planes to have always green air everywhere.

Result:
It took 47 days for them to capitulate and 6000 Light Tanks were lost. (Double time, double tank losses.)
Still a very impressive result to capitulate them early August 1941 with historical start...

So it's not the microing i'd say.
Maybe it's the template. What did you use?

Here is mine:

Spoiler: Template: Light Tank only 40width

 

[Zauberelefant]

I just did a test run to see how big the influence of microing is. I loaded a savegame the moment before declaration of war and just gave all the Tanks one big Field Marshal offensive Line to somewhere behind the Urals. I never touched the tanks and just managed the planes to have always green air everywhere.

Result:
It took 47 days for them to capitulate and 6000 Light Tanks were lost. (Double time, double tank losses.)
Sill a very impressive result to capitulate them early August 1941 with historical start...

So it's not the microing i'd say.
Maybe it's the template. What did you use?

Here is mine:

Spoiler: Template: Light Tank only 40width

View attachment 592457

If I hadn't witnessed your feat, I would think that this is a newbs idea of a Tank template .

 

[Secret Master]

Edit: @Secret Master was faster

I guess even human players would struggle against this build.

Against unprepared humans, it's dangerous.

Against a human that creates a solid wall of entrenched infantry with mediocre AT or excellent AA (to get the required piercing against your Leopards) sitting behind the Riga-Kiev river line with level 5 forts and some air power, you may find yourself facing a brick wall you can't penetrate.

Choosing to defend this particular line against light tanks also has the added advantage that some of the rivers intersect with marshes. So, there are parts of the defensive line where even if Germans want to stack light tanks to try and breach rivers, they'd either have to avoid certain parts of the front or try it in marshes where supply would be bad.

Against humans, the real trick would be to prepare this kind of an offensive for 1940, but not have the Soviets suspect. Then, you gain the advantage of a surprise attack that has real speed coupled with the Soviets having spent time building CIC and feeling confident that they wouldn't need a lot of material until 1941.

But that's the hard part: how do you trick the Soviets and not tip your hand?

If anyone is paying attention to German tungsten and chromium imports, they might suspect something is up even before France falls. If Germany doesn't offer the MR Pact, that's a dead giveaway, but if you offer it at the normal time, the Soviets can use division count to prevent you from breaking the NAP. If you do it early, that might also tip your hand. A LARM focused invasion of Benelux and France might not tip your hand, but no corresponding increase in tungsten once France falls might raise suspicions.

 

[seattle]

I just did a test run to see how big the influence of microing is. I loaded a savegame the moment before declaration of war and just gave all the Tanks one big Field Marshal offensive Line to somewhere behind the Urals. I never touched the tanks and just managed the planes to have always green air everywhere.

Result:
It took 47 days for them to capitulate and 6000 Light Tanks were lost. (Double time, double tank losses.)
Still a very impressive result to capitulate them early August 1941 with historical start...

So it's not the microing i'd say.
Maybe it's the template. What did you use?

Here is mine:

Spoiler: Template: Light Tank only 40width

View attachment 592457

I used:
- 7 LT
- 2 Light SPA
- support: eng, arm.rec, sig, arty

--------------------

Well, I guess Hitler was right after all. You just have to...

 

[SophieX]

Lost 3.200 LTs in a few months.

In addition to the good explanations given by @Secret Master and @Simon_9732495
take a look at your reliablility-stats: 5.

This means: You nearly haven't any reliability of you tank-equipment.

 

[Simon_9732495]

take a look at your reliablility-stats: 5.

This means: You nearly haven't any reliability of you tank-equipment.

The number "reliability" in the template only shows the reliability increased by the Maintenance Support Company.
That's why @seattle has 5.00% in that (older?) template and I have 0.00%. He is using Level1 Maintenance Support Company.

My Light Tanks have a reliability of 96%. (I should have used some extra XP to get to 104% if i understand this: WIKI LINK correctly.)

 

[Simon_9732495]

I used:
- 7 LT
- 2 Light SPA
- support: eng, arm.rec, sig, arty

Ok, so you used this one:

Spoiler: Light Tank 20w with SPGs

Here again mine to compare them 1to1:

Spoiler: Light Tank 40w

You have less org, a lot less HP, a bit less armor, a lot less breakthrough, more soft attack and less production costs (but you need tungsten).


I tested with your division in my game (all tanks on a big field marshall offensive line, aggressive, no micro) and did 2 runs:

1. 48 20w Light Tanks
2. 96 20w Light Tanks

In the first run after 1 month almost all my Tank divisions were wiped out, I lost almost as many manpower as the Soviets and the attack was over and Soviets started counter attack.

In the second run I could capitulate them in 51 days. (Almost the same as with the 48 40w Tanks).
BUT: I lost 23k Light Tanks. That's almost 4 times the losses with the 40w. If you are not able to fill that losses your offense might get to a halt and your divisions are wiped out.


Conclusion:

• I think you shouldn't use Light SPGs for a Tank only template. They lower org and HP and these are already so low, that you can't afford it.
• I think bigger is better. Did another small test with a template with just Light Tanks (no spgs) but 20w instead of 40w. After 2 Month I lost almost 40k Light Tanks and couldnt fill the divisions anymore. I don't see what advantage 20w could have.
• Numbers. With 60k Light Tanks fielded you are good with a simple battle plan. With "only" 30k Light Tanks you need to manage your attack.

 

[seattle]

@Simon_9732495
Awesome! That explains a lot. My reliability was IIRC 96% + the maintenance company bonus.

So it was more a matter of low HP and org. The pyrrhic victory in North Africa was already a good indicator of Barbarossa.

No SPA then and width 40 > 20.

 

[seattle]

My template was even worse than I remembered: 14.9 org

Spoiler: My 20 width template

Maximum org I can achieve is 17.5 though with the most org-boosting support companies. Must be related to tech or doctrines that you reach 20+ org.

Spoiler: My 40 width template

 

[Simon_9732495]

Another thing to play around with is support companies:

Spoiler: Light Tank 40w alternative support

Removing support Arty and adding field hospital gives HP and Org.
The 5th slot can be used for MAINT or SIG for another point of HP.
ENG and RECON give already most org and HP.
Switching out LOG against SIG would give another 0.4 org, but I think the reduced supply use is more important.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Maximum org I can achieve is 17.5 though with the most org-boosting support companies. Must be related to tech or doctrines that you reach 20+ org.

It's essential that you research all of Mobile warfare right right land doctrine before Barabarossa. You NEED that +org for tanks of the last doctrine tech "Modern Blitzkrieg". (And all the others.)

A tank batallion has 10 org. From Mobile warfare right right you get +12 Org for Tanks to get to 22 Org.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

It's 22nd June 1941. (Historical start date of Barbarossa)

Spoiler: Map

View attachment 592387

We have:

• 48 Divisions of the "speedy" Light Tank. ~60.000 Light Tanks fielded. 550k manpower.
• 120 Infantry Divisions. 1.2 mio manpower.
• 218 Coast Guard Divisions. 1 mio manpower. (Guarding coast and ports in all of Europe including Italy.)
• 5 mio fuel in stockpile. Maximum consumption Army: 50k/day Maximum consumption Air: 20k/day
• 3600 upgraded Fighter1, 7000 upgraded Fighter2, 1000 CAS1, 1000 TAC1

Let's see if this works...

20w 48 divisions was my "traditional" Light Panzer setup for barbarrosa

i recently i experiemented 24 divisions of 40widht, i findt it bit more effective, (basically less micro +concentrated firepower), and against max slided soviet union(they land thick 300+ divisions).