For the future expansion of the kingdom of Castilla-Spain (with data and documents)

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Naranjito

Second Lieutenant
Mar 26, 2018
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In this thread, I will try to give ideas (with historical basis) so that developers understand a little better about the Kingdom of Castilla and Spain.

I think there are several errors, both globally and Spain, that is, at the macro level, as errors at the micro level, that is, between the Spanish provinces.

I'm going to divide it into several phases:

1 - On the development of Spain at a global level, in relation to Western Europe.
2- On the development of Castilla and its provinces (Adjustment at the micro level, equilibrium)
3- Missions, Ideas for the game and new characters


With the aim of adjusting a little to the reality of historical events, always knowing that it does not have to be 100% identical to the facts.

1 - On the development of Spain at a global level

It is not my intention to create a monster, or want an oversized and antihistorical Spain, but I think the level of development is not fair.

Kingdom of Castile. 277 points
Kingdom of Aragon (only Spain), 117
Kingdom of Portugal, 114

Poland-Lithuania, 488
United Kingdom, in total between England, Scotland and Ireland, over 400

France, should be around 750
Italy, about 681

All right:

Population levels.

05.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1600

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography

Estimated levels of GDP per capita:

main-qimg-3557b58f7979c9d0c915cbfb146fcf51


That is, the levels of development of Pib per capita Spain between 1450 and 1600 are similar to France and Germany, so it was not particularly underdeveloped, in the first half of the game.

We have several scandalous comparisons:

1- Spain with more population and GDP than Poland-Lithuania, has less development, 382 vs 488
2- The comparison between Portugal and Spain is not adjusted either. 382 vs 114. When between population and more gdp, it could be between 6 and 9 times, between 1450 and 1600.
3- The comparison between Spain and the Nordic countries, I will not even enter
4- The comparison between Spain and the United Kingdom, also does not fit during the first half of the game. 382 vs 400. In 1500 Spain could have 40% more development and in 1600 20%. I am not against more love for the state that grew the most during the game, the United Kingdom, as more provinces, good grounds and favorable events between 1650-1800.
5- However, the comparison between Spain and France and Spain and Italy, if it fits well to reality, which is striking. Is not the small ones favored for the game? Then, why is Spain half the size of France?

This figure is unfair, it is striking how Spain is the only country well represented in relation to France or Italy. Something that does not happen with Portugal, the United Kingdom, Poland-Lithuania, the Nordic countries and practically nobody.

It is more Castilla should be the only nation underrepresented in relation to France, at least in Europe.

From the analysis of these data, for my Spain should be at the level of Poland-Lithuania, about 480-490.
It would be 20% that the United Kingdom, which seems fair if we take into account that Spain will have fewer provinces and less farmland and grassland.
And about 4 times Portugal, something that would be more realistic, and similar to what it would be at the end of the game period, 1820.
In addition, the Kingdom of Naples, its 100 points, should be won in the war and not given away (Italian Wars, I'll talk about this later).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

I also believe that France and Italy could receive 100-150 points of development separately, for balance and reality issues.


2- On the development of Castile and its provinces

If globally, Spain is poorly represented, at the micro level, there are many failures: provinces, Castilla vs. Aragon, climate, land, shortage of provinces in Castilla ...

I will try to solve issues like this:
Is la mancha the richest province in Spain with its gold mine?
Is there no winter in Spain? Is the north the coldest?
Is Rosellon or Murcia richer than Leon, Burgos or Valladolid?
Is Salamanca the richest province?
Does Catalonia have 5 times the population of Galicia?

a) Kingdom of Castilla vs Kingdom of Aragon

According to the game, the Crown of Aragon was richer than the Crown of Castile, it is reflected in the number of provinces, the density per km2, the density of development ... This is an ABERRATION, as Rosellon has more development than historical provinces from Spain as Leon, Burgos or Valladolid.

It is the most unfortunate mistake of the game, Castilla should have more density of provinces than Aragon. According to the game:
Castilla: 400,000 km2 - 26 provinces - 277 points
Aragon: 100,000 km2 - 11 provinces - 117 points.

Reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

Castilla had around 6 times the number of inhabitants that Aragon. Even in 1820 it still has about 4 times the population.

Most of the most populated cities were in Castile:

http://exponente1.blogspot.com.es/2016/08/las-20-ciudades-mas-pobladas-del.html

More reality (pages 14 and up are the most populated cities in Europe starting from 1400):

https://books.google.es/books?id=Xi...Fell to Spain and was treated harshly&f=false

And finally, this documentation that we will use later to observe the provincial balance of Spain (page 400 onwards). This is fundamental to analyze how Spain was developed.

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

In short, Castilla should be between 380-390 and Aragon between 105-110, and being very generous with Aragon.


b) How the Crown of Castile and Spain should be established:


OK, I hope to have convinced you about the rise in Castilla's level of development.

But how to establish the development of Castile?

Were there important cities?

We will use these 3 documents:

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

Basic to understand it:
-Leon + Ponferrada = Leon
- Burgos + Tierras del Condestable = Burgos
- Trasmiera = Cantabria
-Valladolid + Conde de Benavente = Valladolid
- Asturias = Asturias
-Zamora + Toro = Zamora
-Palencia, Avila, Segovia, Toledo, Guadalajara ...
Archbishop's Office of Toledo = Toledo + Madrid + Guadalajara
- Sevilla: Sevilla + Cadiz + Huelva
-Cuenca + Huete = Cuenca
-Trujillo = Extremadura
-Ciudad Real + Campo de Calatrava = Ciudad Real or La Mancha
- Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel = Albacete
-Castilla Orden Santiago = Toledo + Ciudad Real + Albacete + Jaen
- Order of Santiago de Leon = Extremadura + Salamanca
-Murcia = Murcia + part of Albacete

Inb6jay.png


Euro-Cities_1500-1800.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_cities_in_history

That is, Granada was the most populated city in Europe in 1450, Seville was one of the most populated in Europe in almost all the development of the game, Valencia and Barcelona also remained almost always.

But not everything is the subject of the cities, since provinces such as Leon or Burgos were very populated, with a high density and did not have large cities. Galicia without large cities was also very densely populated.

For me in Castilla the highest level should be: Granada, Sevilla, Toledo, Burgos, Leon and Valladolid.
Granada is certain that it lost population, and if the Muslims of Spain are expelled, they should lose development.

Provinces that would eliminate:

La Rioja, does not appear in ancient history. Belongs to Burgos and Soria
Galicia, to divide it into 4 provinces.

New provinces:

Galicia: Santiago, Pontevedra, Lugo and orense
Castilla La Vieja: Palencia, Avila and Segovia
Leon: Zamora
Extremadura: Merida
Castilla La Nueva: Guadalajara and Albacete
Andalucia: Huelva and Malaga

Total 13-2 = 11 new provinces.

This would be approximately the map:

4821A396AE442B9D84B4C2E4C3A3C94F20A477BD


My Balance: (adjusting the size, Cantabria could be densely populated like Burgos but it is 3 times smaller)

NORTH: 34
ASTURIAS: 9
CANTABRIA: 6 (this is a miniprovince already established by the game)
VIZCAYA: 10
NAVARRA: 9 (I would put a strong)

GALICIA: 39
SANTIAGO: 11
PONTEVEDRA: 6
LUGO: 10
ORENSE: 9

CASTILLA: 72
BURGOS: 17 (very populated)
VALLADOLID: 15 (Valladolid and Medina del Campo, I would give you an expensive resource, it was almost capital)
SORIA: 10
AVILA: 10
SEGOVIA: 10
PALENCIA: 10

TOLEDO: 56
TOLEDO: 17
MADRID: 10 (would have a mission to make capital)
GUADALAJARA: 10
CUENCA: 13
CIUDAD REAL: 6 (THERE IS NO GOLD MINE, THERE IS NO, YOU MUST CREATE A CASTILLA THAT DOES NOT DEPEND ON AN NON-EXISTING GOLD MINE)

ANDALUCIA: 47
SEVILLA: 20
HUELVA: 7
CADIZ: 10
CORDOBA: 10

GRANADA: 51
GRANADA: 25 (with loss if the Muslims are cast)
MALAGA: 13
GIBRALTAR: 3
JAEN: 10

EXTREMADURA: 28 (three provinces because I do not want provinces of 20,000 km2)
CACERES: 9
BADAJOZ: 11
MERIDA: 8

LEON: 39
LEON_ 16
ZAMORA: 8
SALAMANCA: 15

MURCIA: 19
MURCIA: 8
ALMERIA: 6
ALBACETE: 5

CANARY ISLANDS: 4

KINGDOM OF CASTILLA: 386

KINGDOM OF ARAGON: 106


CATALONIA: 39
BARCELONA: 16 (with a commercial node instead of Tarragona)
GERONA: 7
URGEL: 6
TARRAGONA: 6
ROSELLON: 4 (mini-province)

VALENCIA: 35
VALENCIA: 18
CASTELLON: 6
ALICANTE: 6
BALEARIC: 5

ARAGON: 32
ZARAGOZA: 14
PYRENEES: 8
TERUEL: 10


c) Physical geography:

Spain is one of the highest regions in Europe.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Capitales_de_provincia_españolas_por_altitud

And in addition most of Spain is the Plateau, with average heights of 650 meters. It is not exactly the highlands of Scotland, I do not know if creating a new land or how to do it, but the land in Spain should be detrimental to development.
There should be few meadows, maybe only in Barcelona and Valencia. Avila and Segovia should be mountains, most of Spain would be plateau, dry land, forests and hills.

OXEeJQja8bz8tsa8K9Y1zjMAdPgemy_gEzh7DKm20spIB3HMdv7YVyCcBZaGvs59B0sZbMgk5306HD--2wZuKSWiZAKah_JjTS8yz9fVRMqsbAwfZChx15QrGzePKJUUQlxYJQ=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu


As the field must play in favor of England, must play against Spain. The Plateau are meadows but meadows at 600, 700 and 800 meters high.

d) climate

The climate according to Paradox is that in Spain there is no winter except the north, this is a mistake that implies ignorance.

argonautas-2014-grupo-3-presentacin-clima-2-638.jpg


That is, there is no winter in Andalucia, Valencia, Catalonia, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Vizcaya.

In almost all the peninsula if there is winter, in Burgos, Avila, Salamanca, Leon, Madrid, Toledo ... They would be mild winters.

It's silly but you have to change the map, it would be more like Turkey, the areas next to the Sea without winter, the interior with mild winter.

3- Missions, Ideas for the game and new characters

1. Kingdom of Naples

Alfonso V King of Aragon conquered Naples in 1442. In 1458 he died. And the Kingdom is divided among its children, Ferrante the Kingdom of Sicily and John the Kingdom of Aragon.

This is not established in the game, in 1450 the Renaissance appears in Italy, in 1490 most of Italy leaves the Empire, from 1580 the wars of religion in the Empire can explode ...

For me, this fact should be established, Aragon should not stay with Naples, which in turn should not go to the Kingdom of Castile / Spain.

And a mechanism of Italian Wars should be established,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

In short, enough to inherit the Kingdom of Naples, whoever wants to fight it.

In addition, the Kingdom of Naples is badly developed, in that rise of points to Italy, enough should go here. Naples had more population than the kingdom of Aragon as a whole (with Sicily)

2. Kingdom of Granada

Apart from the new province of Malaga and everything already spoken.

Culture should be mudejar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudéjar

The expulsion or not of Muslims, should be a choice between the bad and worse. If they stay, more pirates from the north of Africa, less relation with Rome, less prestige (in Europe it was criticized that in Spain there were Jews and Muslims). And if they leave, less development in Granada and economic and / or commercial loss.

Also the ideas of Pomegranates should be very defensive. The war was not easy, the whole territory was very walled, the conquest of Malaga was a very hard siege and to take Granada it was necessary the cannons (powder)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada_War

Likewise the conquest instead of improving the army as a reward, should give prestige and relationship with Rome (until the expulsion is requested that a few years may pass). What happened, something similar to the Conquest of Constantinople in the opposite direction.

3. Wedding Iberica

I think it should be a mission.

And from Castile, choose Portugal or Aragon.

From 1250 that remained in the peninsula 4 Kingdoms, Castile, Aragon, Portugal and Granada, always tried by real marriages the unification. The wars that were usually there were for dynastic rights, since the borders really did not touch.
I am not clear about the requirements and others for the mission, which would obviously provoke the war of Castilian succession.

In history a daughter of king and sister of the king looked for allies to reign, one with Portugal and another one with Aragon.

4. Merino sheep

Castilla had no gold mines, no gold (the colonies in South America had more silver than gold), but the best wool in the world.

A wool with which he monopolized at least until 1600. This does not appear in the game, the wool is the same as a normal one of Germany than the merino race. Something that is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
https://www.sheepandgoat.com/merinosheep

"So, what's so special about Merinos and their wool? Where do I begin? Merino sheep originated in Spain during the Middle Ages. Spain's wealth was based on fine-wooled Merino sheep. Merinos were a protected resource, so valuable that it was a capital offense to export to single sheep. It was not until Napoleon invaded Spain that the world gained access to these incredible sheep. "

5. Pirates of North Africa

They should come back in another DLC or expansion. And markets of slaves in North Africa and Ottomans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

At least Spain, Portugal, Italy and France would have to have facts and missions related to this.

6. Hispanic bankruptcy

It would create a new disaster for Spain, related to a historical event such as the suspension of payments in Spain.
It could be related to wars, rebels and loans (since bankruptcy is almost impossible in the game).

From 1560 and until 1700, if you have X numbers of loans and you are at war or there are rebels, this conflict breaks out that would cause:

Less income from taxes, production and commercial. A negative for development. All this for X years.

I do not know, something like that. This happened and you can get into the game.

7. The tercios

I would put this character,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Fernández_de_Córdoba

He was the father of the thirds.
It could be a general who contributed 1 point of monthly splendor only applicable to the thirds, in Mandate of Heaven.

8. Madrid capital

It should be a mission, if Spain has been formed, 5 or more colonies, Madrid can be capital:

+3 development, good textile (which should not have in principle for being a non-rich province) and a development modifier during X years. If you do not have common sense, then +6 or 7 of development.

9. Fleet of the Indies

I would touch this theme, making it global. That is, Holland, France, England wanted to participate in trade and Spain that was their monopoly.

There should be pirates, corsairs, Spain assigning galleons to defend the Indian fleet ... Maybe give countries like England licenses for pirates in provinces where they could shelter.

I do not know, touch this, establish a global mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeón_de_Manila
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flota_de_Indias

10. The courts of Castilla y Aragon

Here also I accept ideas to put this system of Government, where until 1700, the different parts of the Crown of Spain: Kingdom of Castile, Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Sicily and Kingdom of Naples, had their own laws and courts (parliaments).
 
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Agreed on Seville. It was important enough to be its own province, and not 1/4 of Andalucía, just like London isn't oxfod, Essex and Kent together. That'd be awful wouldnt it? Or Paris. Same here.
 
I believe he means that Huelva's relavance would be outside of EU4's time frame and another place could be used for dividing Seville.

From some reading on the history of the province, the area would be under the influence of the de Guzman family and their relatives. Huelva would be part of the County of Niebla under the Duke of Medina Sidonia, the title of the most prominent family of the Seville region. So centering a Huelva province around Niebla is a thought, although it may not be the best.

For another possibility, Antequera to the west of Seville has been mentioned already. The Duchy of Osuna is also notable.

Still, Huelva could be considered a significant port of the time period, looking at the province as a whole, so I do think that Huelva would be fine as it has been suggested before.

Last, I think looking at this map of the Seville region based on the 1749 census is interesting:

1144px-Se%C3%B1or%C3%ADos_del_Reino_de_Sevilla.svg.png


Edit: After some reading, I came across some more info. Niebla had been a taifa kingdom before the Reconquista (which CK2 represents), then became the County of Niebla under the de Guzman family. The map shows the jurisdictions of different lords, with the Casa de Guzman in green.
Also, the current trade good of Seville is wine, which would be the Condado wine that is produced in the Niebla/Huelva region, while Seville and areas to its west are known for producing olives.
 
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Ups, true about Tarragona, I obviously know where Lleida and Tarragona are, it's just that I did it fast and flipped them.

About province "popularity": for example, a Huelva province shoud be added not because Huelva was popular, but because Seville was popular, so it is unfair to have Seville be represented in a huge province. Seville deserves it's own province, not sharing a huge enourmous province that borders with Portugal. Do you follow what I'm saying?
Correct, I'm all for splitting the province, but Huelva makes no sense as the second option (hence why I used Antequerra). Huelva basically didn't exist, as someone else mentioned you'd be better off going for Palos de la Frontera as that is where Columbus set off from, but IMO thats still too small a village to name a province after.
 
@DDRJake

NEW IBERIA PROVINCES SUGGESTION

zivnk5.jpg


I've made modified the actual provinces map taking into account: population, relevance, wealth and troop paths.

Now historic areas are much more accurate than before. I've respected the 3-5 provinces by area "rule".

OLD PROVINCE -> NEW PROVINCES
- Lisboa -> Lisboa, Leiria
- Galicia -> Coruña, Lugo, Pontevedra
- León -> León, Zamora
- Castilla La Vieja -> Valladolid, Ávila
- Cuenca -> Cuenca, Albacete
- Navarra -> Navarra, Labort
- Valencia -> Valencia, Castelló
- Granada -> Granada, Málaga
- Sevilla -> Sevilla, Huelva

Madrid shouldn't be 2 moves away from the coast as it is, so I've changed near provinces to make it harder (longer) to get to Madrid.

Labort (Labourd) has been fixed. A new name should be given to the new upper French province. I think Landes could be the right name. What I don't know, though, is if Navarre should start owning this new Labort province. I think in 1444 (new) Labort was owned by England, but I'm not sure though.
The Beira province and the Porto province should be split as well (and borders adjusted accordingly), into Beira Alta+Beira Baixa (or Viseu+Castelo Branco) and Braga+Porto respectively. Continental Portugal should have at least 3 different States.
 
Correct, I'm all for splitting the province, but Huelva makes no sense as the second option (hence why I used Antequerra). Huelva basically didn't exist, as someone else mentioned you'd be better off going for Palos de la Frontera as that is where Columbus set off from, but IMO thats still too small a village to name a province after.
Oh, I didn't see your map suggestion. I actually like it a lot, altough, I would change Madrid and the Basque lands:

6fwmmx.png


- Madrid: shouldn't border directly with Cuenca, because being able to move from the coast to Madrid in 2 moves is too easy. It should be harder to get to Madrid. So I used Toledo and Guadalajara to "cut" the border Madrid-Cuenca.
- Rioja: a very important province, it should be present.
- Labort: french Basque Country should be present in the game, just like frech Catalonia is presented in Rosellón/Perpignan. It should complete a "Baskonia/Vasconia" Area with Vizcaya and Navarra (areas need at least 3 provinces). In 1444, Labort was owned by England.

@DDRJake
 
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This is even worse than the original imo. You have lleida and Tarragona flipped (and Lledia was really unimportant during the time frame). Heulva again, I get that it is part of modern day spain but why is it so popular? Same issue with Albacete. Dunno why you would choose Pontevedra over Santiago either.

A mod I made last year had these exact provinces (even that province North of Portugal, that is actually 2 provinces clumped together that are about the same size as the 2 provinces above it) , with the exception of the navarre region. The maps I used for it was either right at the end of the games timeliness or even after it. One reason for adding them like this is to buff iberia against France. I don't remember what I named the provinces, would have just been whatever the maps I looked at said. Historically the provinces in Spain were a lot bigger than the ones we have in vanilla, so you need to just use this map for them.
 
Apart the provinces rework, i think there should be interesting to have a modifier to represent the goden age of Tercios. it should be something like (+10 discipline, -50 reinforce speed, -20 mp recovery), even -20 tax to refelect the bad economy of that years. it may even be tied to having the kingdom of napples in PU throw war like it was mentioned in some thread. The war with france to get napples was where the tercios were born. this modifier should end more or less around 1650 or with the absolutism. doing this, should also remove the spanish hability from the age of reformation to not be too overpowered.
also, the decision of forming spain should be tied to absolutism instead admin tech 10. historicaly, the modern spain was formed with the "decretos de nueva planta", and that was around 1710.
 
A mod I made last year had these exact provinces (even that province North of Portugal, that is actually 2 provinces clumped together that are about the same size as the 2 provinces above it) , with the exception of the navarre region. The maps I used for it was either right at the end of the games timeliness or even after it. One reason for adding them like this is to buff iberia against France. I don't remember what I named the provinces, would have just been whatever the maps I looked at said. Historically the provinces in Spain were a lot bigger than the ones we have in vanilla, so you need to just use this map for them.
Agreed the provinces were too big, but that doesn't mean you throw the map out the window and just say fuck it I'll chop up the country like I want and use tiny villages like Huelva. What you do is you use the historical maps posted and split the provinces using historical boundaries. For example, what I did in my map, split Galicia into A Coruna, Santiago and Lugo

yBgyCn4.png


You follow the borders of the historical divisions so it's still accurate, but you end up with a higher province density and it reflects the important cities of the time.
 
Agreed the provinces were too big, but that doesn't mean you throw the map out the window and just say fuck it I'll chop up the country like I want and use tiny villages like Huelva. What you do is you use the historical maps posted and split the provinces using historical boundaries. For example, what I did in my map, split Galicia into A Coruna, Santiago and Lugo

yBgyCn4.png


You follow the borders of the historical divisions so it's still accurate, but you end up with a higher province density and it reflects the important cities of the time.

Excuse me? At what point did I say "Fuck it chop it up how we like"? I clearly said when I had the same provinces I copied a MAP for it. What HISTORICAL map did you use to chop up galicia?

I said I used a map for my provinces, I used this: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~20693~550081:Spain,-Portugal-

Huelva had +5k people in the city alone in the 18th century, it exported copper too. It's population boomed in the 19th century, a part of which is covered by the games timeline so it is certainly valid enough for a province. Doing this gives Spain an extra port, which can help with it's force limit to build a strong navy like it did historically. Your Sevilla/Antequera looks like you thought "fuck it i'll chop it up how I like". What map did you use for that to create a historical boundary between them?

Galicia the way I did it was just divided differently, still following a map - so I didn't just crack open microsoft paint and go willy nilly forging new provinces...


Edit: Incase for some reason you didn't know, being a dick and condescending is only going to annoy the person you're replying to.
 
Excuse me? At what point did I say "Fuck it chop it up how we like"? I clearly said when I had the same provinces I copied a MAP for it. What HISTORICAL map did you use to chop up galicia?

I said I used a map for my provinces, I used this: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~20693~550081:Spain,-Portugal-

Huelva had +5k people in the city alone in the 18th century, it exported copper too. It's population boomed in the 19th century, a part of which is covered by the games timeline so it is certainly valid enough for a province. Doing this gives Spain an extra port, which can help with it's force limit to build a strong navy like it did historically. Your Sevilla/Antequera looks like you thought "fuck it i'll chop it up how I like". What map did you use for that to create a historical boundary between them?

Galicia the way I did it was just divided differently, still following a map - so I didn't just crack open microsoft paint and go willy nilly forging new provinces...


Edit: Incase for some reason you didn't know, being a dick and condescending is only going to annoy the person you're replying to.
First off, apologies, I didn't mean to come off rude at all and I had misinterpreted what you had said before. I had read it as "the only useful maps with small boundary divisions were in the late game so who cares if it follows them". Hence my response of "I dunno why this guy is coming in and telling me my version is bad as the other one bis better due to it not using current maps". :p

Personally I'm also not a fan of putting in a province for somewhere that is going to only be important in the latter half of the game. Having name changes based on events makes sense (or coding it in that the capital changes at a certain date) but having naming a whole province named after somewhere so unimportant for the first half of the game seems superfluous to me. Especially when there are better options available in the same area (Antequerra and Osuna both seem like good candidates.)

Your map if I'm not mistaken is just an old-timey version of the modern province map isn't it? I don't spot any differences at all and after a quick google search of Rand McNally & Company it appears most of their stuff was published around 1900, well after 1833 when the modern layout was adopted

And I was using the map I posted on the first page of this thread (which I now realise is from the 1700's but I have been told it was pretty accurate for the time too, especially compared to the modern boundaries). However note how Huelva isn't on the map at all (neither is Pontevedra among others people have used) and it also features lower level administrative borders. It is very similar in a lot of areas, but there are some noticeable differences (Cuenca/Soria/Gudalajara border, no Pontevedra/Albacete/Huelva, Zaragoza lacks it's northern tentacle etc.)

Regarding @RaccoonCity I don't know enough about the region of Rioja to know if it did deserve a province but by my eye that area is already quite crowded, and I gave soria wine for it's trade group to represent the area. I agree on Madrid potentially being too easy to get too, and I kinda hate how large Soria looks in my eyes so I'm not sure if adding another province there is a good plan? (or even what the most suitable alternative would be), but your suggestion of the small map tweaks also look good :) Labort also looks like a nice change so I'll be stealing that, however I did get rid of the Vasconia area so that All of France is in the France area and all of Spain is in the Iberian area (it is basque culture though). Albret is probably the best name for the province above, at the time it was owned by the house of Albret (later the dukes of Albret) who also owned Limoges at the time. However, as there is the no vassals rule I guess it would be French? Though I'd be inclined to give it to the UK anyways for balance reasons (dunno how the AI would react to having bordeaux & labort as 2 solo individual provinces)

Agreed, I used this map which I think is slightly clearer than @Aldaron first map
I0SWAqo.gif


Personally I think your map is a bit messy. Rioja isn't really needed imo, and I think joining Segovia and Avila together would make sense province size wise. I'd also only split Galicia up into 3: La Coruna for the northern coast, Santiago for the east coast and Lugo for the interior. Also, Huelva basically didn't exist in the 1400's from my research. I split it into Sevilla in the west and Antequerra in the east there may well be a better split idk).

I'll post a version of my map over the weekend.
 
1- From my point of view if we start to put Galicia with 2/3 provinces, we remove avila or segovia, we remove Albacete, we leave Extremadura in 2 provinces ... we remain the same, Aragon and Portugal with more provinces in proportion.

I have put 37 provinces in Castile and you take several. In Aragon there are miniprovincias like Tarragona or Girona or Castellon or Alicante.

2- For me, Avila and Segovia should be non-negotiable, from 1450-1600 they have great importance, above the average of Castile and far above Aragon. Even in 1800, Segovia remains very well, with 1/4 of the population of Catalonia.

Also, they would come with mountains which is a limitation.

I do not know why you are not, and Gerona, Alicante, Castellon, Tarragona, Cantabria or La Rioja yes.

3- Galicia has already been shown to gain population and economic weight over time. In 1800 it has 50% more population than Catalonia or Kingdom of Valencia (with Balearic Islands).

The 4 provinces for me are nonnegotiable, even 1 should have meadows. And they should have: cows, fishing, textiles (if it was an industry with flax) and sal-navales.

If it has and 4/5 in Catalonia and 4 in Kingdom of Valencia, there should be 4 in the Kingdom of Galicia, the most developed province of Spain at the end of the 18th century.

4- In the map of Matymooz, it will not specify Huelva, but it is that there is a subdivision that is Huelva.
In addition Huelva is historical city of Spain, antiquity. In 1600 it was little populated but like Cadiz or Castellon or Gerona or so many others.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huelva

It is necessary (more boats) and I believe that it is historical.

5- Albacete, Albacete also existed, but you have convinced me.

What I do not convince is that La Mancha 20,000 km2 and Albacete, 15,000 km 2, are a single province.

I did not even know what was in Wales? In the Balearics? In Castellon?

But looking at the map of matymooz, I have the historical solution:

what we call La Mancha will be Ciudad Real, and what I call Albacete + part of La Mancha / Ciudad Real, will be La Mancha.

Ciudad Real + La Mancha

Solved and historical.

6- I would not include La Rioja, because it is a mini-province and because it is between Burgos and Soria, but if it is included, the states could be changed:

Kingdom of Galicia
Kingdom of Leon: Asturias, Leon, Zamora and Salamanca
Kingdom of Navarre: Vizcaya, Navarra and La rioja (and if this is the Basque Country french)

Kingdom of Castile: Cantabria, Burgos, Palencia, Valladolid, Soria and Segovia

Kingdom of Toledo: Toledo, Madrid, Avila, Guadalajara, Cuenca and Ciudad Real
Kingdom of Seville
Kingdom of Granada
Kingdom of Murcia: Murcia, Almeria and La Mancha
Extremadura: caceres, Badajoz y Merida/Plasencia

This is not 100% historical but the states are very close.
 
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First off, apologies, I didn't mean to come off rude at all and I had misinterpreted what you had said before. I had read it as "the only useful maps with small boundary divisions were in the late game so who cares if it follows them". Hence my response of "I dunno why this guy is coming in and telling me my version is bad as the other one bis better due to it not using current maps". :p

Personally I'm also not a fan of putting in a province for somewhere that is going to only be important in the latter half of the game. Having name changes based on events makes sense (or coding it in that the capital changes at a certain date) but having naming a whole province named after somewhere so unimportant for the first half of the game seems superfluous to me. Especially when there are better options available in the same area (Antequerra and Osuna both seem like good candidates.)

Your map if I'm not mistaken is just an old-timey version of the modern province map isn't it? I don't spot any differences at all and after a quick google search of Rand McNally & Company it appears most of their stuff was published around 1900, well after 1833 when the modern layout was adopted

And I was using the map I posted on the first page of this thread (which I now realise is from the 1700's but I have been told it was pretty accurate for the time too, especially compared to the modern boundaries). However note how Huelva isn't on the map at all (neither is Pontevedra among others people have used) and it also features lower level administrative borders. It is very similar in a lot of areas, but there are some noticeable differences (Cuenca/Soria/Gudalajara border, no Pontevedra/Albacete/Huelva, Zaragoza lacks it's northern tentacle etc.)

Apology accepted! :)
Definitely did not mean your version is bad (After seeing your mod I actually gave up on mine because it was to a higher quality!.. And my mod got only 6 downloads haha), I was just trying to say that I don't think OP's version isn't too bad - I used the same setup.

I have no problems with provinces changing names, infact I love that. Wish we'd see it happen in game often to show the rise of bigger cities.

I think the map I used was from the late 19th century, 1890 if I remember right. It is the modern provinces, but since I couldn't find any maps from the game's period I used it and merged some provinces together to make it work well.

The website I use to find old maps, which is incredibly useful when making map mods, is this: http://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Med...ate_from=0&date_to=9999&scale_from=&scale_to=
you scroll over an area and it searches for maps for the region. All the maps I could find for Spain was the huge provinces version though.
 
Just chiming in; Labourd should stay the way it is. Albret is not a better name for it; it was under English control in 1444. The current map reflects this correctly. Although I agree that it should be part of the French region, not Iberia.

@Mattymooz Great map suggestion, although I think that @RaccoonCity 's small suggestion would make it even better.


Just a thought; how accurate is the CK2 province setup for the 1444 timeperiod?
 
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Apart the provinces rework, i think there should be interesting to have a modifier to represent the goden age of Tercios. it should be something like (+10 discipline, -50 reinforce speed, -20 mp recovery), even -20 tax to refelect the bad economy of that years..
In the Age of Reformation Spain can unlock the "ability"
Spanish Tercios −30% Shock damage received (available only to Spain)

They also get the +15% morale for filling their ideas and +5% discipline
 
Just chiming in; Labourd should stay the way it is. Albret is not a better name for it; it was under English control in 1444. The current map reflects this correct. Although I agree that it should be part of the France region, not Iberia.

@Mattymooz Great map suggestion, although I think that @RaccoonCity 's small suggestion would make it even better.
Yes, current "Labourd" large province CAN'T be Iberia. It should be France region. It's border gore.

The thing is that the Basque lands need its own game 'area', call it "Baskonia" or whatever you want. And game areas need at least 3 provinces, so apart from Vizcaya and Navarra, another basque province is required. I propose that the current French Basque land can be a province, maybe Labourt or Bayonne. Another posibility could be dividing the Euskadi/Basque Country in Vizcaya and another province, like Gipúzcoa or Álava. Or... including La Rioja in the Basque 'area', a Castilian province but with some Basque heritage, altough I think it wouldn't be very correct.

The Labourt/Bayonne solution would also add a lot of flavour to Spain, Navarra or a hypotetical Basque nation as it could add a mission to get it back from the French (or the English) and reunite the Basque Lands under a same ruler. Something similar to what happens with the current Rosellón/Perpinyà province, that is a Catalan province owned by the French since 1659.
 
Just chiming in; Labourd should stay the way it is. Albret is not a better name for it; it was under English control in 1444. The current map reflects this correct. Although I agree that it should be part of the France region, not Iberia.

@Mattymooz Great map suggestion, although I think that @RaccoonCity 's small suggestion would make it even better.


Just a thought; how accurate is the CK2 province setup for the 1444 timeperiod?
The Albret suggestion was about adding a new province; Labourd is made smaller (so it becomes a similar size to rousillion but on the other side of the Pyrenees) and then Albret takes up the rest of the province and the bottom of bordeaux. That will help keep the vasconia are and also the shape of the france region.
 
France could now be given Foix province if Iberia is buffed. Labort being given to England will also make England a bit tougher for France at the beginning of the game which is good.

Perhaps Menorca could be added with low development as a way to boost Aragon and later Spain's navy? Isle of Mann is 572 km2 while Menorca is 696 km2 so no reason to believe it is too small to add. While we are at it the Kingdom of Mallorca tag would be nice. Maybe split the Canary Islands into Tenerife and Gran Canaria?