For the future expansion of the kingdom of Castilla-Spain (with data and documents)

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Naranjito

Second Lieutenant
Mar 26, 2018
199
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In this thread, I will try to give ideas (with historical basis) so that developers understand a little better about the Kingdom of Castilla and Spain.

I think there are several errors, both globally and Spain, that is, at the macro level, as errors at the micro level, that is, between the Spanish provinces.

I'm going to divide it into several phases:

1 - On the development of Spain at a global level, in relation to Western Europe.
2- On the development of Castilla and its provinces (Adjustment at the micro level, equilibrium)
3- Missions, Ideas for the game and new characters


With the aim of adjusting a little to the reality of historical events, always knowing that it does not have to be 100% identical to the facts.

1 - On the development of Spain at a global level

It is not my intention to create a monster, or want an oversized and antihistorical Spain, but I think the level of development is not fair.

Kingdom of Castile. 277 points
Kingdom of Aragon (only Spain), 117
Kingdom of Portugal, 114

Poland-Lithuania, 488
United Kingdom, in total between England, Scotland and Ireland, over 400

France, should be around 750
Italy, about 681

All right:

Population levels.

05.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1600

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography

Estimated levels of GDP per capita:

main-qimg-3557b58f7979c9d0c915cbfb146fcf51


That is, the levels of development of Pib per capita Spain between 1450 and 1600 are similar to France and Germany, so it was not particularly underdeveloped, in the first half of the game.

We have several scandalous comparisons:

1- Spain with more population and GDP than Poland-Lithuania, has less development, 382 vs 488
2- The comparison between Portugal and Spain is not adjusted either. 382 vs 114. When between population and more gdp, it could be between 6 and 9 times, between 1450 and 1600.
3- The comparison between Spain and the Nordic countries, I will not even enter
4- The comparison between Spain and the United Kingdom, also does not fit during the first half of the game. 382 vs 400. In 1500 Spain could have 40% more development and in 1600 20%. I am not against more love for the state that grew the most during the game, the United Kingdom, as more provinces, good grounds and favorable events between 1650-1800.
5- However, the comparison between Spain and France and Spain and Italy, if it fits well to reality, which is striking. Is not the small ones favored for the game? Then, why is Spain half the size of France?

This figure is unfair, it is striking how Spain is the only country well represented in relation to France or Italy. Something that does not happen with Portugal, the United Kingdom, Poland-Lithuania, the Nordic countries and practically nobody.

It is more Castilla should be the only nation underrepresented in relation to France, at least in Europe.

From the analysis of these data, for my Spain should be at the level of Poland-Lithuania, about 480-490.
It would be 20% that the United Kingdom, which seems fair if we take into account that Spain will have fewer provinces and less farmland and grassland.
And about 4 times Portugal, something that would be more realistic, and similar to what it would be at the end of the game period, 1820.
In addition, the Kingdom of Naples, its 100 points, should be won in the war and not given away (Italian Wars, I'll talk about this later).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

I also believe that France and Italy could receive 100-150 points of development separately, for balance and reality issues.


2- On the development of Castile and its provinces

If globally, Spain is poorly represented, at the micro level, there are many failures: provinces, Castilla vs. Aragon, climate, land, shortage of provinces in Castilla ...

I will try to solve issues like this:
Is la mancha the richest province in Spain with its gold mine?
Is there no winter in Spain? Is the north the coldest?
Is Rosellon or Murcia richer than Leon, Burgos or Valladolid?
Is Salamanca the richest province?
Does Catalonia have 5 times the population of Galicia?

a) Kingdom of Castilla vs Kingdom of Aragon

According to the game, the Crown of Aragon was richer than the Crown of Castile, it is reflected in the number of provinces, the density per km2, the density of development ... This is an ABERRATION, as Rosellon has more development than historical provinces from Spain as Leon, Burgos or Valladolid.

It is the most unfortunate mistake of the game, Castilla should have more density of provinces than Aragon. According to the game:
Castilla: 400,000 km2 - 26 provinces - 277 points
Aragon: 100,000 km2 - 11 provinces - 117 points.

Reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

Castilla had around 6 times the number of inhabitants that Aragon. Even in 1820 it still has about 4 times the population.

Most of the most populated cities were in Castile:

http://exponente1.blogspot.com.es/2016/08/las-20-ciudades-mas-pobladas-del.html

More reality (pages 14 and up are the most populated cities in Europe starting from 1400):

https://books.google.es/books?id=Xi...Fell to Spain and was treated harshly&f=false

And finally, this documentation that we will use later to observe the provincial balance of Spain (page 400 onwards). This is fundamental to analyze how Spain was developed.

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

In short, Castilla should be between 380-390 and Aragon between 105-110, and being very generous with Aragon.


b) How the Crown of Castile and Spain should be established:


OK, I hope to have convinced you about the rise in Castilla's level of development.

But how to establish the development of Castile?

Were there important cities?

We will use these 3 documents:

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

Basic to understand it:
-Leon + Ponferrada = Leon
- Burgos + Tierras del Condestable = Burgos
- Trasmiera = Cantabria
-Valladolid + Conde de Benavente = Valladolid
- Asturias = Asturias
-Zamora + Toro = Zamora
-Palencia, Avila, Segovia, Toledo, Guadalajara ...
Archbishop's Office of Toledo = Toledo + Madrid + Guadalajara
- Sevilla: Sevilla + Cadiz + Huelva
-Cuenca + Huete = Cuenca
-Trujillo = Extremadura
-Ciudad Real + Campo de Calatrava = Ciudad Real or La Mancha
- Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel = Albacete
-Castilla Orden Santiago = Toledo + Ciudad Real + Albacete + Jaen
- Order of Santiago de Leon = Extremadura + Salamanca
-Murcia = Murcia + part of Albacete

Inb6jay.png


Euro-Cities_1500-1800.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_cities_in_history

That is, Granada was the most populated city in Europe in 1450, Seville was one of the most populated in Europe in almost all the development of the game, Valencia and Barcelona also remained almost always.

But not everything is the subject of the cities, since provinces such as Leon or Burgos were very populated, with a high density and did not have large cities. Galicia without large cities was also very densely populated.

For me in Castilla the highest level should be: Granada, Sevilla, Toledo, Burgos, Leon and Valladolid.
Granada is certain that it lost population, and if the Muslims of Spain are expelled, they should lose development.

Provinces that would eliminate:

La Rioja, does not appear in ancient history. Belongs to Burgos and Soria
Galicia, to divide it into 4 provinces.

New provinces:

Galicia: Santiago, Pontevedra, Lugo and orense
Castilla La Vieja: Palencia, Avila and Segovia
Leon: Zamora
Extremadura: Merida
Castilla La Nueva: Guadalajara and Albacete
Andalucia: Huelva and Malaga

Total 13-2 = 11 new provinces.

This would be approximately the map:

4821A396AE442B9D84B4C2E4C3A3C94F20A477BD


My Balance: (adjusting the size, Cantabria could be densely populated like Burgos but it is 3 times smaller)

NORTH: 34
ASTURIAS: 9
CANTABRIA: 6 (this is a miniprovince already established by the game)
VIZCAYA: 10
NAVARRA: 9 (I would put a strong)

GALICIA: 39
SANTIAGO: 11
PONTEVEDRA: 6
LUGO: 10
ORENSE: 9

CASTILLA: 72
BURGOS: 17 (very populated)
VALLADOLID: 15 (Valladolid and Medina del Campo, I would give you an expensive resource, it was almost capital)
SORIA: 10
AVILA: 10
SEGOVIA: 10
PALENCIA: 10

TOLEDO: 56
TOLEDO: 17
MADRID: 10 (would have a mission to make capital)
GUADALAJARA: 10
CUENCA: 13
CIUDAD REAL: 6 (THERE IS NO GOLD MINE, THERE IS NO, YOU MUST CREATE A CASTILLA THAT DOES NOT DEPEND ON AN NON-EXISTING GOLD MINE)

ANDALUCIA: 47
SEVILLA: 20
HUELVA: 7
CADIZ: 10
CORDOBA: 10

GRANADA: 51
GRANADA: 25 (with loss if the Muslims are cast)
MALAGA: 13
GIBRALTAR: 3
JAEN: 10

EXTREMADURA: 28 (three provinces because I do not want provinces of 20,000 km2)
CACERES: 9
BADAJOZ: 11
MERIDA: 8

LEON: 39
LEON_ 16
ZAMORA: 8
SALAMANCA: 15

MURCIA: 19
MURCIA: 8
ALMERIA: 6
ALBACETE: 5

CANARY ISLANDS: 4

KINGDOM OF CASTILLA: 386

KINGDOM OF ARAGON: 106


CATALONIA: 39
BARCELONA: 16 (with a commercial node instead of Tarragona)
GERONA: 7
URGEL: 6
TARRAGONA: 6
ROSELLON: 4 (mini-province)

VALENCIA: 35
VALENCIA: 18
CASTELLON: 6
ALICANTE: 6
BALEARIC: 5

ARAGON: 32
ZARAGOZA: 14
PYRENEES: 8
TERUEL: 10


c) Physical geography:

Spain is one of the highest regions in Europe.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Capitales_de_provincia_españolas_por_altitud

And in addition most of Spain is the Plateau, with average heights of 650 meters. It is not exactly the highlands of Scotland, I do not know if creating a new land or how to do it, but the land in Spain should be detrimental to development.
There should be few meadows, maybe only in Barcelona and Valencia. Avila and Segovia should be mountains, most of Spain would be plateau, dry land, forests and hills.

OXEeJQja8bz8tsa8K9Y1zjMAdPgemy_gEzh7DKm20spIB3HMdv7YVyCcBZaGvs59B0sZbMgk5306HD--2wZuKSWiZAKah_JjTS8yz9fVRMqsbAwfZChx15QrGzePKJUUQlxYJQ=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu


As the field must play in favor of England, must play against Spain. The Plateau are meadows but meadows at 600, 700 and 800 meters high.

d) climate

The climate according to Paradox is that in Spain there is no winter except the north, this is a mistake that implies ignorance.

argonautas-2014-grupo-3-presentacin-clima-2-638.jpg


That is, there is no winter in Andalucia, Valencia, Catalonia, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Vizcaya.

In almost all the peninsula if there is winter, in Burgos, Avila, Salamanca, Leon, Madrid, Toledo ... They would be mild winters.

It's silly but you have to change the map, it would be more like Turkey, the areas next to the Sea without winter, the interior with mild winter.

3- Missions, Ideas for the game and new characters

1. Kingdom of Naples

Alfonso V King of Aragon conquered Naples in 1442. In 1458 he died. And the Kingdom is divided among its children, Ferrante the Kingdom of Sicily and John the Kingdom of Aragon.

This is not established in the game, in 1450 the Renaissance appears in Italy, in 1490 most of Italy leaves the Empire, from 1580 the wars of religion in the Empire can explode ...

For me, this fact should be established, Aragon should not stay with Naples, which in turn should not go to the Kingdom of Castile / Spain.

And a mechanism of Italian Wars should be established,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

In short, enough to inherit the Kingdom of Naples, whoever wants to fight it.

In addition, the Kingdom of Naples is badly developed, in that rise of points to Italy, enough should go here. Naples had more population than the kingdom of Aragon as a whole (with Sicily)

2. Kingdom of Granada

Apart from the new province of Malaga and everything already spoken.

Culture should be mudejar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudéjar

The expulsion or not of Muslims, should be a choice between the bad and worse. If they stay, more pirates from the north of Africa, less relation with Rome, less prestige (in Europe it was criticized that in Spain there were Jews and Muslims). And if they leave, less development in Granada and economic and / or commercial loss.

Also the ideas of Pomegranates should be very defensive. The war was not easy, the whole territory was very walled, the conquest of Malaga was a very hard siege and to take Granada it was necessary the cannons (powder)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada_War

Likewise the conquest instead of improving the army as a reward, should give prestige and relationship with Rome (until the expulsion is requested that a few years may pass). What happened, something similar to the Conquest of Constantinople in the opposite direction.

3. Wedding Iberica

I think it should be a mission.

And from Castile, choose Portugal or Aragon.

From 1250 that remained in the peninsula 4 Kingdoms, Castile, Aragon, Portugal and Granada, always tried by real marriages the unification. The wars that were usually there were for dynastic rights, since the borders really did not touch.
I am not clear about the requirements and others for the mission, which would obviously provoke the war of Castilian succession.

In history a daughter of king and sister of the king looked for allies to reign, one with Portugal and another one with Aragon.

4. Merino sheep

Castilla had no gold mines, no gold (the colonies in South America had more silver than gold), but the best wool in the world.

A wool with which he monopolized at least until 1600. This does not appear in the game, the wool is the same as a normal one of Germany than the merino race. Something that is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
https://www.sheepandgoat.com/merinosheep

"So, what's so special about Merinos and their wool? Where do I begin? Merino sheep originated in Spain during the Middle Ages. Spain's wealth was based on fine-wooled Merino sheep. Merinos were a protected resource, so valuable that it was a capital offense to export to single sheep. It was not until Napoleon invaded Spain that the world gained access to these incredible sheep. "

5. Pirates of North Africa

They should come back in another DLC or expansion. And markets of slaves in North Africa and Ottomans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

At least Spain, Portugal, Italy and France would have to have facts and missions related to this.

6. Hispanic bankruptcy

It would create a new disaster for Spain, related to a historical event such as the suspension of payments in Spain.
It could be related to wars, rebels and loans (since bankruptcy is almost impossible in the game).

From 1560 and until 1700, if you have X numbers of loans and you are at war or there are rebels, this conflict breaks out that would cause:

Less income from taxes, production and commercial. A negative for development. All this for X years.

I do not know, something like that. This happened and you can get into the game.

7. The tercios

I would put this character,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Fernández_de_Córdoba

He was the father of the thirds.
It could be a general who contributed 1 point of monthly splendor only applicable to the thirds, in Mandate of Heaven.

8. Madrid capital

It should be a mission, if Spain has been formed, 5 or more colonies, Madrid can be capital:

+3 development, good textile (which should not have in principle for being a non-rich province) and a development modifier during X years. If you do not have common sense, then +6 or 7 of development.

9. Fleet of the Indies

I would touch this theme, making it global. That is, Holland, France, England wanted to participate in trade and Spain that was their monopoly.

There should be pirates, corsairs, Spain assigning galleons to defend the Indian fleet ... Maybe give countries like England licenses for pirates in provinces where they could shelter.

I do not know, touch this, establish a global mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeón_de_Manila
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flota_de_Indias

10. The courts of Castilla y Aragon

Here also I accept ideas to put this system of Government, where until 1700, the different parts of the Crown of Spain: Kingdom of Castile, Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Sicily and Kingdom of Naples, had their own laws and courts (parliaments).
 
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Wow amazing work. From one spaniard to another. Bravo. The devs have now no excuse to give us that spanish update now. Awesome research work.

Here also I accept ideas to put this system of Government, where until 1700, the different parts of the Crown of Spain: Kingdom of Castile, Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Sicily and Kingdom of Naples, had their own laws and courts (parliaments).
Mistranslation. They were called Cortes but were not corts in the english sense of the word (which would be tribunales de justicia in spain). Cortes were the word used in spain for parliaments. But were exactly the same. So yes, I agree Spain should have their own, when even the game in Leon's NI acknowledges that Leones paraliament was the first and not the british. About a century before and allowing the commons in and not only the nobles like in the English one.

If they want to be accurate, there should be an event that under certain conditions removes it from spain just like they were removed in spain in the 18th century. The fact that they weren't called often because spanish monarch got all the gold they needed from america and that gave them absolute power does not mean that parliaments with full powers were there and had huge influence until 1550 more or less after the rebolt of the Communeros and Charles the I consolidated his absolute imperialist power.

4. Merino sheep

Castilla had no gold mines, no gold (the colonies in South America had more silver than gold), but the best wool in the world.

A wool with which he monopolized at least until 1600. This does not appear in the game, the wool is the same as a normal one of Germany than the merino race. Something that is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
https://www.sheepandgoat.com/merinosheep

"So, what's so special about Merinos and their wool? Where do I begin? Merino sheep originated in Spain during the Middle Ages. Spain's wealth was based on fine-wooled Merino sheep. Merinos were a protected resource, so valuable that it was a capital offense to export to single sheep. It was not until Napoleon invaded Spain that the world gained access to these incredible sheep. "

This is so true. Castille supplied the whole clothing northen european industry with its wool upon which it had a monopoly. I'd remove tha ideous gold province and give the wool producing provinces a province modifier such as the one in Denmark or Hudson fisheries or swedish copper mines giving a +2 goods produced or so.
 
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I like a lot of your suggestions.

One of the great problems that Spain had going into the 1700s was an inability to make efficient use of its population. In 1707, it was still negotiating lump-sum taxes with the burgers of each city, and by 1780 it was making less than a third the taxes Britian was per head of population. A big reason for this was the separate crowns, cortes, etc., the huge mass of privileges and exemptions which successive monarchs failed to consolidate into a coherent system.

It's been stated several times that development is a kind of average through the game's time period; and in the context of the game what development is is the state's ability to mobilise its resources for building buildings, armies, fleets etc. Taken together, that's at least a prima facie case for a smaller development buff to Spain than the one you've suggested.


A more delicious solution would obviously be to have some concrete dynamic of either growing more (comparatively) inefficient over time, or doing internal work (and fighting rebels) as you struggle to reform the system against local opposition. (This would be a nice dynamic for everyone tbh but Spain had these problems a lot more than most.) But I at least don't have time to flesh such a suggestion out.
 
I like a lot of your suggestions.

One of the great problems that Spain had going into the 1700s was an inability to make efficient use of its population. In 1707, it was still negotiating lump-sum taxes with the burgers of each city, and by 1780 it was making less than a third the taxes Britian was per head of population. A big reason for this was the separate crowns, cortes, etc., the huge mass of privileges and exemptions which successive monarchs failed to consolidate into a coherent system.

It's been stated several times that development is a kind of average through the game's time period; and in the context of the game what development is is the state's ability to mobilise its resources for building buildings, armies, fleets etc. Taken together, that's at least a prima facie case for a smaller development buff to Spain than the one you've suggested.


A more delicious solution would obviously be to have some concrete dynamic of either growing more (comparatively) inefficient over time, or doing internal work (and fighting rebels) as you struggle to reform the system against local opposition. (This would be a nice dynamic for everyone tbh but Spain had these problems a lot more than most.) But I at least don't have time to flesh such a suggestion out.

I think you can have all that made through events and decitions (to make reforms). Many of which (negative ones) should not occure should you take another path and focus on america and global trade instead of european wars, for instance.
 
Hi. These are nice suggestions. Don't share everyone of them, but at least you have done some research.

I would like to suggest two tiny improvements:

1) Baleares should be splitted in Mallorca and Menorca. Menorca was an strategic isle in the Mediterranean, seized and captured by Piali Baja (Ottomans) during the wars against Spain and by England during the Succesion War (1710 aprox.)

2) Valencia should be a formable nation. If Catalonia is a formable tag in 1444 we can assume that they are not refering to the uprising of 1640 but that the are trying to reflect that the crown of Aragon was composed of Aragon itself, the Principate of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Valencia. Off course Baleares could be added as a tag too, although it had no Parlament and its economic relevance was pretty low (but given that the Isles in Scotland are a tag, Baleares should be formable too)

PD: I think you are overdeveloping Galicia. It was a poor region, that was reliant of fishing. Personally i think it makes no sense to give it 39 points. On the other hand you are underdeveloping Murcia, which had 20000 inhabitants at the end of the XVth century and was the most important silk producer of the Peninsula after Valencia (source UNESCO: https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/countries-alongside-silk-road-routes/spain)
 
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Great suggestions, with respect to the wool/cloth producing issue I think it would be best served by a mesta event similar to the sindicat de remença that Aragon has, giving those provinces a goods produced modifier in exchange for less building slots "The cañadas (traditional rights-of-way for sheep that perhaps date back to prehistoric times) are legally protected "forever" from being built on or blocked. "(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesta) and the modifier could be removed if the burghers are very powerful or like in real history if Spain has a parliament
 
I don't agree that the game should be taylor made to make one nation succeed over others, or that Spain should be gimped or that that is what the developers even want as has been implied in the first post.

Sure, development and amount of provinces should be revamped for Iberia, but also for many other regions of the world. However, Spain was -the- world power for at least half of the games timeframe and there need to be mechanics that handle that and have events that have Spain get involved in European politics and subsecuently, wars. More Burgundian Inheritance-type, events, rewards for defending the Catholic faith that Spain could reap, as well as fighting the Ottomans turks.
 
To OP, the map is plain wrong, since it is obviously based in Javier de Burgo's provincial map of 1833.

A proper source to base your map would be one of these:

gI8rHYT.gif

ppcv22l.png
 
outside the peninsula, i would like to add content about spain and philipines. They weren conquered diplomaticaly mostly, so it should be some type event-quest that give you one or two provinces in the isles (manila or cebu) when/if you get to colonice there. and if forming an important power there, it should be an event to form the trade route "galeon de manila" mostly giving acapulco (dont know what province is ingame) a important trade center modifier. it may also be interesting adding silver as resource, historicaly for spain silver was more important that silver, and china (ming) was one of the most imporant consumer of silver in that age.
 
Agreed, I used this map which I think is slightly clearer than @Aldaron first map
I0SWAqo.gif


Personally I think your map is a bit messy. Rioja isn't really needed imo, and I think joining Segovia and Avila together would make sense province size wise. I'd also only split Galicia up into 3: La Coruna for the northern coast, Santiago for the east coast and Lugo for the interior. Also, Huelva basically didn't exist in the 1400's from my research. I split it into Sevilla in the west and Antequerra in the east there may well be a better split idk).

I'll post a version of my map over the weekend.
 
Just crossing over my own input i recently applied onto another thread on the topic of Iberian/North African border provinces.

Gibraltar would be split into two provinces, Castile to fill out the proposed removal of gold provinces with development could receive two strait crossings, ideally Gibraltar in itself could be the size of zeeland to represent itself as a peninsula while the existing province renamed to algeciras is rounded out a small amount with its own crossing owned by Castile, both are Andalusian in culture

Algeciras used to be a territory of a ibero-moorish kingdom but as of gamestart hadn't been for 400 years (though territory contested across the 14th century) and is in control of Castile used for blocking a straight between tangiers and itself, while ceuta is connected to Gibraltar, which is owned by Granada next to the province of granada, all being a similar strait setup to constantinople's crossing between nearest adjacent ports both of which had strategical importance at the time.

Though two missions England could get a permanent claim upon Gibraltar, and another to as a tributary diverting trade or directly to increase provincial trade power in Sevilla to encourage historical use of the Treaty of Utrecht in which Gibraltar (represented as a country tag, outline in above hyperlink to original thread.) was a concession. To add a little more flavour to the war of Spanish succession bookmark i would think also.

Though i do not personally own a copy this book popped up in my search results on the topic and might be useful to helping affirm details around the period and locations.
 
To OP, the map is plain wrong, since it is obviously based in Javier de Burgo's provincial map of 1833.

A proper source to base your map would be one of these:

gI8rHYT.gif

ppcv22l.png

Agreed, I used this map which I think is slightly clearer than @Aldaron first map

I0SWAqo.gif


Personally I think your map is a bit messy. Rioja isn't really needed imo, and I think joining Segovia and Avila together would make sense province size wise. I'd also only split Galicia up into 3: La Coruna for the northern coast, Santiago for the east coast and Lugo for the interior. Also, Huelva basically didn't exist in the 1400's from my research. I split it into Sevilla in the west and Antequerra in the east there may well be a better split idk).

I'll post a version of my map over the weekend.



the map is not mine, it is the one I have seen the most that can be agreed upon.

I know it is very similar to the current one, but it is that in the document that I put of 1600 on the population appear practically all the current provinces.

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf Basics to understand it: (page 400)
-Leon + Ponferrada = León
- Burgos + Tierras del Condestable = Burgos
- Trasmiera = Cantabria
- Valladolid + Conde de Benavente = Valladolid
- Asturias = Asturias
- Zamora + Toro = Zamora
- Palencia, Ávila, Segovia, Toledo, Guadalajara ...
Archbishopric of Toledo = Toledo + Madrid + Guadalajara
- Seville: Seville + Cádiz + Huelva
-Cuenca + Huete = Cuenca
-Trujillo = Extremadura
-Ciudad Real + Campo de Calatrava = Ciudad Real or La Mancha
- Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel = Albacete
-Castilla Orden Santiago = Toledo + Ciudad Real + Albacete + Jaén
- Order of Santiago de León = Extremadura + Salamanca
-Murcia = Murcia + part of Albacete

Seriously, you think you have to put a province of Seville of 40,000 km2, really? What development do we put it? 20, like the 4 miniprovincias of Wales ?. Or we put 40 of development?
It is logical to divide the province in Seville, Huelva and Cadiz.

Also, a province of Extremadura of 40,000 km2? , is seriously ?

In La Rioja, I already say that I would not put it, I divide it partly for Soria and I leave for Burgos.

Segovia and Avila have 7,000 and 8,000 km2, and therefore according to the document on 1600 practicing 25 inhabitants per km2, when France in 1600 had about 30. It is unfair to make a single province of 15,000 km2. Also, in honor of the truth, since they did not develop much after 1600 I say that they would have mountains that is a limitation.

Galicia, was one of the most developed provinces of the time, if Catalonia or Wales have 4/5 provinces, Galicia deserves 4, since it leaves about 8,000 km2 per province.

I accept large provinces in Ciudad Real or Albacete because they were depopulated, I accept large province in Leon or Burgos, but getting high development, but everything has a limit.

You can not get macroprovinces in all of Spain. The map is modern, but fits well or very well.

Put your maps, I thank you, can be better than mine, but keep in mind that Europe there are areas with miniprovincias of 5,000 km2, make an average of 10,000 km in Spain, no superprovinces.

If the issue is to change the name to Huelva or others, then change it.

I do not say that the map is perfect, but what I have seen (without the Rioja and with 3 provinces in Extremadura) is the one I liked the most.
 
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Hi. These are nice suggestions. Don't share everyone of them, but at least you have done some research.

I would like to suggest two tiny improvements:

1) Baleares should be splitted in Mallorca and Menorca. Menorca was an strategic isle in the Mediterranean, seized and captured by Piali Baja (Ottomans) during the wars against Spain and by England during the Succesion War (1710 aprox.)

2) Valencia should be a formable nation. If Catalonia is a formable tag in 1444 we can assume that they are not refering to the uprising of 1640 but that the are trying to reflect that the crown of Aragon was composed of Aragon itself, the Principate of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Valencia. Off course Baleares could be added as a tag too, although it had no Parlament and its economic relevance was pretty low (but given that the Isles in Scotland are a tag, Baleares should be formable too)

PD: I think you are overdeveloping Galicia. It was a poor region, that was reliant of fishing. Personally i think it makes no sense to give it 39 points. On the other hand you are underdeveloping Murcia, which had 20000 inhabitants at the end of the XVth century and was the most important silk producer of the Peninsula after Valencia (source UNESCO: https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/countries-alongside-silk-road-routes/spain)


The development data I take from here. From page 400

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

Murcia does not seem very developed, in general the coast in Spain then was little inhabited.

Maybe out of fear of the pirates, or maybe because the development was inside, or both.


I do not know if you're Spanish, but Galicia is: Lugo, Coruña, Betanzos, Orense, Mondoñedo, Santiago and Tuy. Total 620,000 inhabitants, more population than Catalonia or kingdom of Valencia.

I do not know if you are Spanish, if you are not, then google translator.

How Catalonia became rich and poor Galicia

http://www.abc.es/espana/20140210/abci-como-cataluna-volvio-rica-201402100444.html

What map did you use as a basis for the provinces? They seem a bit odd in places...


the map is not mine, I do not know how to make them.

of those that I have seen, except for the two changes that I have said (not La rioja and one more province in Extremadura), it seems to me the best of all.

the map is of this mod: Spanish Improvement MOD 0.11.1 (Spanish language compatible)
 
Would it be accurate to say that the Castilian monarchs were rather weak at the start date? My understanding was that the country was very decentralised with lots of powerful nobles, eventually leading to the civil wars. Would it be reasonable to give Castile a substantial development bump, but also high starting autonomy to reflect that situation? Then there could be an event for an "increased centralization" modifier that would allow Spain to go beast mode in the XVI century (maybe triggered by the Iberian wedding, or having a monarch with high stats and high prestige).
 
uhmEyEh.jpg


This is what I have

Seriously, you think you have to put a province of Seville of 40,000 km2, really? What development do we put it? 20, like the 4 miniprovincias of Wales ?. Or we put 40 of development?
It is logical to divide the province in Seville, Huelva and Cadiz.
I agree it should be split, but it should be split based on cities that were important at the time and using the province boundaries shown in the maps provided. Huelva basically didn't exist then, wheras Antequerra from my research was a pretty important fort at the time.

Also, a province of Extremadura of 40,000 km2? , is seriously ?
As above, the divisions in game imo aren't that huge compared to France. All the provinces in the map I made are the same of Auvergne or smaller (Cuenca is about the same size but I dunno how to split it down more tbh).

Segovia and Avila have 7,000 and 8,000 km2, and therefore according to the document on 1600 practicing 25 inhabitants per km2, when France in 1600 had about 30. It is unfair to make a single province of 15,000 km2. Also, in honor of the truth, since they did not develop much after 1600 I say that they would have mountains that is a limitation.
As you can see above, the province of Avila doesn't look too out of place, and by splitting it in half they would be way too small. Provinces being merged together isn't really anything that scandalous. Heck look at England, you don't have every single county, some are merged together to make bigger ones (eg. Hampshire & Wiltshire) and some are split up as they are really big (Yorkshire split into Leeds, York and Hull)

Galicia, was one of the most developed provinces of the time, if Catalonia or Wales have 4/5 provinces, Galicia deserves 4, since it leaves about 8,000 km2 per province.
Then why is the development you have given so low? Why not combine 2 of the provinces like above, split your lugo province in half and buff A Coruna up to like 14 and the remaining province till like 10. That doesn't seem that silly imo

You can not get macroprovinces in all of Spain. The map is modern, but fits well or very well.
As above province boundaries are inaccurate, cities that didn't exist getting provinces (Albacete, Huelva etc.)...

Put your maps, I thank you, can be better than mine, but keep in mind that Europe there are areas with miniprovincias of 5,000 km2, make an average of 10,000 km in Spain, no superprovinces.
There are areas that need that density to show borders though (like in Germany) and all the development reflects that. I agree the density should be higher, but it doesn't need to be Netherlands high, a lot of spain was pretty empty (especially in the south from my research)
 
We will use these 3 documents:

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

Basic to understand it:
-Leon + Ponferrada = Leon
- Burgos + Tierras del Condestable = Burgos
- Trasmiera = Cantabria
-Valladolid + Conde de Benavente = Valladolid
- Asturias = Asturias
-Zamora + Toro = Zamora
-Palencia, Avila, Segovia, Toledo, Guadalajara ...
Archbishop's Office of Toledo = Toledo + Madrid + Guadalajara
- Sevilla: Sevilla + Cadiz + Huelva
-Cuenca + Huete = Cuenca
-Trujillo = Extremadura
-Ciudad Real + Campo de Calatrava = Ciudad Real or La Mancha
- Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel = Albacete
-Castilla Orden Santiago = Toledo + Ciudad Real + Albacete + Jaen
- Order of Santiago de Leon = Extremadura + Salamanca
-Murcia = Murcia + part of Albacete

And so I did some math on this source.

But first few small adjustments on how I calculated:
Extramadura = Order of Santiago de Leon + Trujillo
La Mancha = Ciudad Real + Campo de Calatrava + Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel

Albacete province did not exist until 1833. Albacete city itself was in Murcia province, but Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel were in what was La Mancha province at the time.

States I made is obviously subject to change, especially in Leon-Castile area, but I made how technically it could look like and how historically it would be correct to make like. As example Asturias was coastal province of Leon, while Cantabria coastal province of Burgos, so I included them there, but geographically they can be in coastal state including Basque provinces - that would enable to remove Labourd province from Iberia as I see lots of complains about that.


Population:
1594 - 1.415k
1787 - 1.137k
1803 - 1.220k

Provincial population 1594:
Toledo - 563k
Cuenca - 327k
Guadalajara - 190k
La Mancha - 176k
Madrid - 160k

Toledo, Cuenca & La Mancha provinces are of about 20km2 each, but I don't see any historical division on how to split them. But maybe split is not even needed. I think Spain deserves it's capital state to be biggest one in both size and development.
Area - 80km2

Population:
1594 - 1.083k
1787 - 1.167k
1803 - 1.211k

Provincial population 1594:
Andalusia - 574k (modern Sevilla + Cadiz + Huelva)
Jaen - 278k
Cordoba - 231k

Area is big and 5th province easily can be created. I'm not sure should it be Huelva or something else.
Area - 59km2

Population:
1594 - 962k
1787 - 975k
1803 - 983k

Provincial population 1594:
Salamanca - 322k
Leon - 320k
Asturias - 165k
Zamora - 155k
Area - 49km2

Population:
1594 - 877k
1787 - 602k
1803 - 588k

Provincial population 1594:
Valladolid - 278k
Segovia - 207k
Palencia - 204k
Avila - 189k
Area - 31km2

Population:
1594 - 672k
1787 - 636k
1803 - 669k

Provincial population 1594:
Burgos - 298k
Soria - 191k
Cantabria - 127k

Maybe it's not such bad thing to keep La Rioja province. It has it's cultural identity from middle ages after all when it was borderland between Navarra & Castile.
Area - 35km2

Population:
1594 - 629k
1787 - 1.346k
1803 - 1.143k

Galicia population skyrockets at 2nd half of game, so I think it should have 4 provinces and development friendly terrain for easier development.
Area - 30km2

Population:
1594 - 562k
1787 - 417k
1803 - 428k

Seems like Plasencia was one of the biggest and most influental cities of Extremadura, so I would choose this 3-province division.
Area - 42km2

Population:
1594 - 502k
1787 - 999k
1803 - 1.076k

Provincial population 1594:
Granada - 360k
Murcia - 142k
Area - 47km2

Population:
1594 - 487k
1787 - 783k
1803 - 825k

Balearic Islands not included in statistics. But population should be over 100k in 1594.
Area - 28km2

Population:
1594 - 355k
1787 - 623k
1803 - 657k
Area - 48km2

Population:
1594 - 341k
1787 - 536k
1803 - 505k

Provincial population 1594:
Vizcaya - 187k
Navarra - 154k

French Basque region population will be smallest, but over 100k in 1594 I guess.
Area - 21km2

Population:
1594 - 323k
1787 - 814k
1803 - 859k
Area - 36km2


And some comparison between such regions:

1. Toledo - 1.415k
2. Andalusia - 1.083k
3. Leon - 962k
4. Valladolid - 877k
5. Burgos - 672k
6. Galicia - 629k
7. Extramadura - 562k
8. Granada - 502k
9. Valencia - 487k (without Balearic Islands)
10. Aragon - 355k
11. Basque - 341k (2 provinces only)
12. Catalonia - 323k (all 5 provinces including Roussillon, though data is a bit older for Catalonia)

1. Galicia - 1.346k
2. Andalusia - 1.167k
3. Toledo - 1.137k
4. Granada - 999k
5. Leon - 975k
6. Catalonia - 814k (without Roussillon)
7. Valencia - 783k (without Balearic Islands)
8. Burgos - 636k
9. Aragon - 623k
10. Valladolid - 602k
11. Basque - 536k (2 provinces only)
12. Extramadura - 417k

1. Toledo - 1.220k
2. Andalusia - 1.211k
3. Galicia - 1.143k
4. Granada - 1.076k
5. Leon - 983k
6. Catalonia - 859k (without Roussillon)
7. Valencia - 825k (without Balearic Islands)
8. Burgos - 669k
9. Aragon - 657k
10. Valladolid - 588k
11. Basque - 505k (2 provinces only)
12. Extramadura - 428k


And probably the most interesting statistics:

1. Valladolid - 28 (persons / km2)
2. Valencia - 21
3. Galicia - 21
4. Leon - 20
5. Burgos - 19
6. Basque - 19
7. Andalusia - 18
8. Toledo - 18
9. Extramadura - 13
10. Granada - 11
11. Catalonia - 9
12. Aragon - 7

1. Galicia - 45 (persons / km2)
2. Valencia - 34
3. Basque - 30
4. Catalonia - 25
5. Granada - 21
6. Leon - 20
7. Andalusia - 20
8. Valladolid - 19
9. Burgos - 18
10. Toledo - 14
11. Aragon - 13
12.Extramadura - 10
 
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I would like to see an immersion pack for Spain focused more on their European "adventures" rather than also split time focusing on the colonial world, i would save that for another DLC to properly flesh out South America and Mexico.