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Nice to hear from You again van Morris.:D :D

The bad news is that Your compromise has come to late,:confused:

We have already decided on it (actually it is the same as You proposed, hehehe, look up some of the previous posts in this thread):D :D

But, You know it is ultimately decided by Paradox, so who knows if it is going to be like that. But again I for my part can live with the 1 province Croatia, vassal and ally of Hungary with relations around +100-150. That is OK.

About our, well sometimes harsh discussions: Hey, I am not saying that we could not be less emotional, but it is obviously something very important for both of us (similar to football!!! :D :D , although I have to admit Hungary these days is not anywhere near as it used to be, sniff )

So as far as we are converging into one direction, and find compromises, it does not really matter. That it the reason why I do not even bother about You saying things like Arpad was beaten by You??, because I know it was not like that.;)

Cheriooo:D
 
Was reading Produce Pete's Turkey AAR. It looks like Croatian-Hungarian relations do indeed begin high, as Hunagry annexed them 10 years into the game. This is the danger of high starting relations. It makes it almost inevitable that an annexation will occur within 10 years of game start.

Something like +25 would be better IMHO, at least let Hungary work for it if they wish to annex.
 
originally posted by Sean
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Come on Sean, how historical would that be???

Hungary having much better relations with any other far away exotic country (Ayattuyah, China, ...), but Croatia, which is ruled by the Hungarian King, its nobles have lands in Hungary and Hungarian nobles in Croatia, they are facing the same enemies, same religion, similar culture, etc....???

It has got to be around +100-150, and it is still difficult to diplo-annex Croatia, (when as Hungary) You are bound to fight the Hussites in the north (need all your money for that), ottomans in the south, not to mention the war with Venice (richest country by far in the region) which still goes on for Dalmatia in 1419. So it si going to be Difficult!!!!

cherioo:D :D :D
 
Attila, the problem is to allow for historical accuracy within the framework of the game. With starting relations of 150 then Croatia will be annexed within 10 years at the same frequency with which Naples was by Spain in EU1.

As far as the money, the "free" relations boost makes an AI Hungary even more powerfull in annexing.

Hungary 100d -->Croatia 100d--> Hungary and voila 2 diplomats boost up relation by 200d for the cost of the original 100.
 
originally posted by Sean
Hungary 100d -->Croatia 100d--> Hungary and voila 2 diplomats boost up relation by 200d for the cost of the original 100.
Click to expand...

Well, You might call me selfish but I was rather thinking about it from a Human player perspective (I am going to play Hungary after all!!!). Now, how many times have You seen a gift of 100D sent to a country and raising Your relations by only 10-20 points?? I see that all of the time, so this is what I meant by difficult diplo-annexation. BTW, I always play at the hardest level (furrious, etc.)
and I found that the AI is always cheating no matter what the starting relations are. They always manage diplo-annexations, whereas it only happens for me once out of 10 times, eventhough I have all the necessary things for that, even sending 100D, when I am already +200, having military on the borders, etc...!!!!:mad:

So I still believe even +100-150, should be difficult enough for diplo-annexation. Besides, the reason for putting Croatia in the EUII was to satisfy my Croation friends (I agree with this being done), to be able to play Croatia, so if the AI eventually succeeds in diplo-annexation in the rest of the games (where no Croat or Hungarian plays it), than what??!?? At least it gets historically correct.

Cherioo:D :D
 
Originally posted by Attila the Hun
Well, You might call me selfish but I was rather thinking about it from a Human player perspective (I am going to play Hungary after all!!!). Now, how many times have You seen a gift of 100D sent to a country and raising Your relations by only 10-20 points?? I see that all of the time, so this is what I meant by difficult diplo-annexation. BTW, I always play at the hardest level (furrious, etc.)
and I found that the AI is always cheating no matter what the starting relations are.
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It's funny, I always found diplo-annexations so easy that it unbalanced the game and led to cheap landgrabs. The number of unifications between kingdoms during the period is relatively rare if you consider the time scale and number of countries. Note, diplo-annexing is not the same as inheritance which was slightly more common. IMHO it should be almost impossible to diplo-annex.

Under IGC 2.3 with a free Brittany, and free Ireland option, both they and Naples are diplo-annexed within 20 years almost every single game. England starts out with -200 relations with Ireland and still manages the annexation.

It's almost worthless having a free Croatia if it's shelf life is to be the 10 years the AI/human must wait before hitting the annex button.
 
origianlly posted by Sean
It's almost worthless having a free Croatia if it's shelf life is to be the 10 years the AI/human must wait before hitting the annex button.
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Well diplo-annexations for me was always difficult, but than again I always played small countries (Hansa, Naples, Ragusa(what a nightmare that one was!!!:)) with 2-3 provinces at the start (where You simply had to be a powermonger, annexing neighbours, in order to be able to "run with the big dogs" (France, Spain, turkey having 20 or so provinces, 200-330D annual income, etc.)!!!) So I guess having a high BB value from the start did not help too much.:D

About the free Croatia: Again, do not get me wrong (let there be one!!!)! However, as far as I see, the main reason for it is to give our Croation friends a possibility to play with their own country, which is fine, but still unhistorical. So if it gets diplo-annexed early on in the game by the AI, in those games where Croatia is not controlled by a Human player, what is the problem?!?!?! I certainly do not mind what happens with Hungary in those games I am not taking part. I think the same is true with Croatia (I wonder if I am going to be crucified by them for saying this!?!?! :D :D ). I do not think that they mind what actually happens with Croatia in my or anyone's games (unless of course its an MP, woooahahaha), untill they have at least the chance to be completely independent from Hungary in their games. And even with a relationship of +180 (which I am not asking for, I think +100-150 would do it) You can easily avoid being diplo-annexed. Had no problems playing Naples, Ragusa (was bloody hell, but still managed) which countries starts out like this.:D

Cherioo:D
 
Originally posted by Attila the Hun
About the free Croatia: Again, do not get me wrong (let there be one!!!)! However, as far as I see, the main reason for it is to give our Croation friends a possibility to play with their own country, which is fine, but still unhistorical.
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I must have misread the conclusions to the debate, but my voice (which is not a very important one) would be for Croatia to be a part of Hungary unless it passes an objective test for statehood. I say that at the risk of being ostracized by my girlfriend (guess where she's from) but this is supposed to be a simulation not a fantasy.

Regarding diplo-annexing, it's pet hate of mine, and something I hope has changed in EUII, though I don't hold out much hope. I'd rather see a decent dynastic model which simulates the union, semi-union and breakup of states....oh well.
 
I say that at the risk of being ostracized by my girlfriend (guess where she's from) but this is supposed to be a simulation not a fantasy.
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UUUUUUUUUUUPs. Hey Sean!!! YOU BETTER HIDE THAT PC OR LAPTOP OF YOURS BEFORE SHE (Your girlfriend) FINDS OUT: Ouchhhhhhhhhhh.:D


Speaking of who is "claiming the Throne" here, hehehe:D


Cherioo :D :D
 
OK, now let me place the cat among the pigeons...

... or is it the other way around?

The place mistakenly known as Croatia is in fact the ancient Ottoman province known as Hýrvatistan, and shall so remain for ever! (Or unless the Turks get PC, which I doubt.)

Likewise, the controversy over Siebenbürgen or whatever is wrong, since the area should properly be known as the Former Ottoman Province of Eflak.

(I can't wait to see the flames :eek: )
 
The place mistakenly known as Croatia is in fact the ancient Ottoman province known as Hýrvatistan, and shall so remain for ever! (Or unless the Turks get PC, which I doubt.)
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Suddenly there is a huge explosion: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, as the smoke cloud lifts up people see the image of a man (aka Attila the Hun) shaking his had and mumbling "poor Emre (Yigit), I have tried everything to save You, but this was just too much for me to handle. You my friend, have not unleashed a cat amongst the pigeons, but an atomic kitten (hehehe), which blew right in your face. More and more ppl gather around the dissappointed man (aka Attila the Hun) who is balming himself for this terrible thing that happened, as some one from the back starts to utter silently "Do not worry my friend it is not Your fault. We know You wanted to save him, but unfortunately he asked for it....." hehehe:D :D


Cherioooo :D :D
 
so if the AI eventually succeeds in diplo-annexation in the rest of the games (where no Croat or Hungarian plays it), than what??!?? At least it gets historically correct.

very true attila. completely agree with you here.

The place mistakenly known as Croatia is in fact the ancient Ottoman province known as Hýrvatistan, and shall so remain for ever!

do not be surprised if you see a croatia AAR with the only and main goal to conquer and convert all turkish provinces :D

well, i think this discussion is over. and i invite you all to check out my thread about province population, especially my eastern european friends who can help a lot with their knowledge of aproximate population for areas for who the actual numbers can't be found so easily...
 
Originally posted by sean9898

...
Regarding diplo-annexing, it's pet hate of mine, and something I hope has changed in EUII, though I don't hold out much hope. I'd rather see a decent dynastic model which simulates the union, semi-union and breakup of states....oh well.
Click to expand...

Maybe in the Crusades/Medieval EU they will have a dynastic model. It would certainly be more important then - it was much more of a political influence than in EU where there is a (slow) rush to nationhood.

:)
 
atilla,atilla....
yes,you can already hear sounds of nails as we crucify you:))))

vassal croatia is not a fantasy,but a reality,and that is,it seems only thing left unsettled between us....

If you of course agree that Nikola Subic Zrinski was croatian although he died defending hungarian city,a national hero of both our glorious nations,but of croat blood!!!!
anyway,for Janos hunjady,we in croatia call him Sibinjanin Janko and he is also remembered as greta hero,he commanded croatian troops,defended Zemun(-old croatian city which was purely croatian till 1920 and yugoslavia,and from then on it is a part of Belgrade and is been constantly serbized....)
he had lands in croatia (slavonian part)...
so it is same thing,you see??
when turks come,and our croatian-hungary state was terriblly defeated in 2 battles:croatian army on Krbava field 1493 and hungarian on Mohacs 1526.,till 1699 we were very good friends,we had 2 common enemies:austrian centralism and ottoman empire....

so,you hungary guys,as we made compromise (historical,i repeat) lets move to something more important....and btw i will fight with you in your transylvannia struggle because if croatia and transilvannia have same status that is extremly rediculous!!!croatia had many more independance,in fact transilvannia didnt have it at all!!!!
 
i forgot to say,yes Tomislav has beaten arpad when he tried to anex slavonia...that was the reason croatia become a kingdom....

The rest of this post was edited out as it has nothing to do with EU2. Please keep personal quarrels out of my forum - Uglyduck
 
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Originally posted by von Morris
btw i agree on croatia and hungary having pretty high relations in the begginig

AND indpendent Croatia is a fact!!!!NOT a fantasy....(atilla you have experience with shouting:))
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Just be aware, my friend, that relation levels of +100-150 between the two nations almost guarantees a swift annexation of Croatia by Hungary...! The historicity of this is not something upon which I am willing to comment excessively, considering there are so many strong partisans of opposing viewpoints here -- but the _result_ of these high relations is more important than the high relations themselves, IMHO... So the question is -- should Hungary be able to consistently completely diploannex Croatia within the first 20 or so years of the game? Because that is what is likely to happen on a regular basis with these high relations, based upon my experiences with EU I, and my readings of the EU2 AARs where diploannexes occur.

:)
 
Uglyduck i hope you will noth terminate my post here becose i copy it from Thread you close.
In it/here are some ansers to Attila and Zsolo clamings, and some proposal to EUII regard they propose, also mayority of this discuson was made in this thread so Im asking you to plese donth deled it.
I hope you will noth.

**************

1.Im interested what did you learn in school Atilla and Zsolo, regard Slavonia and its status in history, becose Im in impression you belive what you were seying regard Slavonia. And this also ned sirius comparesment and discuson what is lernd there and here regard Slavonia.Wee shuld compare what exactly wee no abauth it.

2.Also in my History sorces i have info that only after 1699 did Sabor of Hungary start to demad and ask Hasburgs that take Slavonia from Croatian sabor and be put under Hungarian sabor authority
what newer hapened.

3.Also i have nolage that for first time in history Hungary start to have idea to clame that Croatia and Slavonia shuld be integral part of Hungary in late 18ct youst after:

A) Austrian reformation or germanization as it was seen in Croatia and Hungary, with Josip2/Jozeph2 have faild.

B) Croatia agred to be in same state with Austria as long Hungary will be in.This was considerd to be best defence agenst posible Austrian Germanisatian atemts in future...(restoration by some point of St. Stjepan crown )
.. before in Hungary its one nationalizn start to clame Croatia and Slavonia.


4. You do no, that claming Croatia and Slavonia is property of Kingdom of Hungary becose the king was same when king is noth eny more of Hungarian blood is strange iwen by youre claming?!?
And iwhen wen he was by Hungarian blood he haved titel of King of Croatia and King of Slavonia to role in, and newer trayed ,eny one King, to annex Croatia or Slavonia to Kingdom of Hungary, he was youst traying to increse its centralism In Croatia and Slavonia same as in Hungary.
To seay difrent is youst an nothtruth and I cant name it difrendly but Hungarian Nationalistic clames ,sory

5.I do no Slavonia did have it sabor and ban and from 13ct
Also i no that from midle of 15ct ban and sabor of Croatia and Slavonia were united in one. Also Croatian/Slavonian ban was Army leder in 3 Banovine (bild to protect Croatia and Slavonia from Ottomans by Matijas Korvin
(donth no its Hungarian .. or polis or luxemburg name sory )
thear names were "Jajacka,Srebrenicka and Sabacka BANovina".

Also this did hapened I belive at first place becose in start of 15ct
Venice and Bosnia or Bosnian Feudal lords of Croatian origin who donth recognize Croatian sabor..depend what you tret them (sory Emir ), control all what is worth from Croatia then(The medival by adriatic ), and after theam Ottomans .All that rest is mauntin area to the west and northwest stil under control of Croatian Sabor

Nobilty of Croatia (Adriatic one ,big part)youst changed to Slavonia where they alredy are owner of olmost all land becose nobilty of Salvonia and Croatia is same one in wery big part, having posesions in Slavonia nad Croatia(before Ottomans comed)
Sabor of Croatia is from this moment hold in Slavonia teritory in its west parts and that is in the midle of 15ct.

That are after 1606(all that is noth under Ottomans) considerd to be Croatia as an regia.
Name of Croatia changed from old place by Adriatic and inland of what is dis days West Bosna and Hercegovina ,to the west parts of Slavonia and Croatia (city Zagreb and Varazdin )
becose of at first place Ottomans rampage, so the name of Croatia is from 17ct considerd to be there were is Krain province in EUII.

Thats whay I propose name of Croatia be there.
Naming of Dalmatia into Croatia would be fine and best solution only if EUII is in time span of 600/700ac-Ottomans comed.
As it isnth, placing Croatia at still EUII province Krain is bether in time span of 1419 (or 1492) till 18OOs .
Alauth it isnth ben there in 1419.

7.
Also Ban from that moment in 15ct for Croatia and Slavonia is to the 1918 same person yob in 100% of cases.
And there is only one Croatian Sabor.
Wee could sey Slavonia anexed what was left of Croatia in EU language


This all is an fact, so im wery confused whay are you Atila and Zsolo claming difrently.
I canth see it difrently as traces of Hungarian Nationalism, sory but it heard like that.

If it would be what you sead then this map shudenth look like this,
and I can sey it is best history maps and probly best corect and most detaeld on internet regardin Europe
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm

Exept if you wonth to sey Historian who made them haved no Historical nolage as you have Attila and Zsolo?

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
and on this one there is recognisal Transylvania were incorpotated into Hungary in 1400s what I can agree with you Attila and Zsolo 100%

but Croatia and Slavonia no,
noth in 1300, or 1400 or 1500 or eny time in the future
to be incorporated into Kingdom of Hungary or under Hungarian Sabor.
You mast agred with what Im seyin as its fact.
You mast see you are using pure Hungarian nationalistic clame with no facts as such, im sory to sead this but it looks as best posible explanation of youre claming

Egar to reed youre ansvers Attila and zsolo



So in 1419 reletions and shape of Croatia ,(Slavonia) , Bosnia and Hungary one toward ichader shuld be:

1.
Croatia(old Krain) and Slavonia(old Croatia) province are making Croatia Kingdom
(shape of this 2 province is actulay shape of Slavonia before Ottomans comed)
CB on province Istria, Croatia(Krain still),Slavonia(Croatia still),Dalmatia , Ragusa and yes Bosnia (sory Emir )
Croatia is vassal toward Hungary till 1526 or?
Hungary protecte Croatian independence
Croatia protect Hungarian independence
(Croatia protect Slavonian independence )
Croatia is in military alayence with Hungary and Slavonia
DIP 0 or 50+ if wee wonth to halt annexation by Hungary
DIP 100+ if wee wonth more acurate situation in 1419
DIP 100+ or 150+ toward bosnia if wee wonth simulate lots of nobels in Croatia,Slavonia and Bosnia of .... close origin
Also it can be simply make DIP to fall time by time with events
to stop posible annexation or a hard time to Human player if he wish to do it...posible iwen fixing it on +100 if posible in EUII engine ??

2.
If Slavonia is in game ( shuld be Historicly)
Same CB as Croatia
Same alayence toward Hungary
Protecting independence of Croatia and Hungary
only one provionce Slavonia is making this Kingdom.
Slavonia in vassal position toward Hungary by 1526 or ?
Croatia and Slavonia have vassalization on ichader
DIP toward Hungary +50 or +100
DIP toward Croatia +180 or +200
in midle of 15ct Croatia shuld annex it or Slavonia annex Croatia
But capital shuld be in same case in Croatia(krain still) wen this acure Slavonia shuld change its name to Croatia in any case.

but

to this hapened under Slavonia is in vassalization toward Hungary and Croatia in same time.Im noth shure this is posible in EUII game engine?
Also can 1 province size state vassalized or annex 1 province state ?
So to youst use Croatia province + province Slavonia for Croatia is then best posible solution if EUII canth simulate that.. if wee wont historicly corect situation in 1419.

3.
Bosnia
Kingdom of Bosnia is made of province Bosnia
(at this moment there is noth province with name of Hercegovina but I have strange filing Paradox culd supraise all of as with some new cool province )
CB on Bosnia and Dalmatia ...perhaps on Ragusa so if Ottomans donth get Bosnia, Bosnia shuld tray to get Ragusa leter for exit on Adriatic, and its trade but this is hipotetical ?
DIP 0 or -50 or more toward Hungary?
DIP +100 or +150 so "IF" Hungary lose vassalization on Slavonia or Croatia Bosnia as AI have some chance or will to vassalize Croatia or Slavonia or iven annex it... but this is hipotetical if Ottomans donth come ?

4.
Ragusa is vassal toward hungary to the 1526 or ??
Hungary protect its independence

5.
Hungary have Croatia (+ Slavonia) and Ragusa as vassals.
CB on Croatia, Slavonia, Bosnia, Istria, Dalmatia only to simulate Hungaryian leter nationalism (they are noth its national provinces)
so there is some will for AI to get Croatia,(and Slavonia) and Bosnia?
And Hungary is leder of Military alayence with Cro (+Sla)



Also an note ... it is posible that Croatia (+Slavonia) have vassalsip on Hungary also what is making one ichader annexation imposible i think
(what is noth more historicly incorect thatn Hungary have on them if wee note this is simulateing Personal Unia in witch all members are same and equal toward King who is same for all)


Croatia and Hungary and Bosnia shuld be moduled that as AI
A. HUN and CRO (and SLA )donth have wars one agenst ichader becose they are probly best allays later wen Ottomans come
B. Hungary donth annex Croatia or annex it wery rare.
C. With Zrinski and Subic family pops auth in Hungary and Croatia that would be enaf to give hard time to Ottomans
D. If in some case Ottomans donth come, wars betwen Hungary and Bosnia shuld be posible .

Human Player can act whatewer he wonth enywey, so aim shuld be to modulate AI to act like what wee see it shud.

This is what I see it, and I belive I see it wery acurate.

And I also hope you can see this post
 
Every time I see this thread in the forum it has a 1,2,3,4... LAST PAGE and I keep hoping it IS the last page. Alas, it never is.:(
 
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